Ray Ray's Swing Thread

[RayPlan]

53 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Where was the consensus that you need more forward bend at address? This address position is way out of bounds:



Ask yourself how you're meant to return to anything resembling this position at impact? If you maintained or gained any depth via correct sequencing and rotation you'd miss the ball inside. You're basically setting up to force yourself to do this to get to impact:



The reason this is damaging is because in every single swing you've posted you have the same exact "right hip forward thrust" position at impact, a product of the incorrect sequencing I broke down earlier. In setting up this bent over and far away from the ball you're only encouraging yourself to continue this move. You can *not* maintain spine angle through impact if you sequence incorrectly, your right hip coming forward will always crash into your lower back and push you up/back, so bending over *more* at address and then continuing that same pattern is backwards and continue to encourage the wrong moves.

I'm glad to hear you say this, because it has felt wrong. I'm looking back, and I've found that it's not really a consensus, just repeated comments.

 

I have actually asked myself how I'm supposed to get back to impact like this, and the answer seemed to be "ridiculous amounts of side bend," which didn't seem like something a normal, repeatable swing should require. It was the only way to make the geometry work though.

 

If I can stand closer to the ball again, that's a tremendous relief. 

 

53 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I noticed you looking at the camera or at least in that direction when you were doing the drills. You don’t really want to be doing that. Save that for the mirror. When filming you do the movements then check the camera after to see if you are doing them correctly.

 

This may be my perception but it seems like you maybe tinkering with setup almost every session and end up in different positions. 
 

Nailing setup is key to everything else. Your setup should be the same every session and you should have a routine for getting into that proper setup and going through it for every swing you take in your sessions.

 

Review the grip and setup video from Monte on rebellion golf, it’s free. This should be hammered over and over like the ntc drills.

Yes you needed more but you took it to the extreme in the video and at the wrong place in the swing. Monte talks about adding left bend and increasing knee flexion in the transition part of ntc. 

 

Purely my opinion I think you fee off balanced in other setups because it feels weird or different

I don't have a mirror I can do anything with a club in front of, so I've been using the camera for that mirror function. I'll keep that in mind though. It's very tempting to look, but obviously it interferes with the movements.

 

I look like I'm tinkering with setup every time because I can't get comfortable in an awkward position. If I'm overdoing it on the posture adjustments, then I probably won't have that problem once I get back in a more natural position.

 

In most other things, I have good balance and flexibility/mobility, so those should never hold me back in the golf swing, only bad form/technique.

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I look like I'm tinkering with setup every time because I can't get comfortable in an awkward position. If I'm overdoing it on the posture adjustments, then I probably won't have that problem once I get back in a more natural position.

The problem is you are going to feel awkward doing something new/different. You can’t get away from doing things the right way because they feel awkward or not natural. We see what you consider as natural is an incorrect setup so doing the natural feels or natural thing isn’t working. 
 

reverting back to natural will slow or impede progress

[betarhoalphadelta]

From one of my lessons, I also had WAY too much forward bend. Based on a line drawn, I was bent forward ~50-55 degrees from vertical. That should be 35-40 degrees. 

 

The checkpoints I was given are easy to do with lines drawn on the screen. Draw a line along your spine. That should be 35-40 degrees of forward bend. Draw a vertical line from the middle of your shoulders. That line should bisect your grip (with an iron, driver your hands can be a little farther forward). Draw a vertical line from the butt of the club. That line should be at or outside your toe line. 

 

The only hard part is determining the angle of the forward bend line if you're using a tool like PowerPoint like I am... I always have to use the vertical and horizontal measurement of the "shape" in PowerPoint and then try to remember HS trigonometry to back-calculate the angle from vertical 😄

 

But when I draw it for myself, it's like this:

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

And then since I guess I've got time, I'll do your most recent one..

 

[RayPlan]

45 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The problem is you are going to feel awkward doing something new/different. You can’t get away from doing things the right way because they feel awkward or not natural. We see what you consider as natural is an incorrect setup so doing the natural feels or natural thing isn’t working. 
 

reverting back to natural will slow or impede progress

My contrived swing in the OP isn't really what I consider natural. I'd say this one on the left is:

 

If that's good enough (or close), then that's what I'll revert to. The setup on the right is unnatural, so I don't there's there's much danger of falling back into that. 

 

I can feel the difference between something being awkward because of novelty and something feeling uncomfortable because it's wrong and potentially harmful. I've done enough athletic activities and weightlifting in my life develop those senses. The excessive forward bend felt bad, and it exacerbated bad movements. 

 

Will review the Monte setup and grip videos again for good measure.

[RayPlan]

6 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Review the grip and setup video from Monte on rebellion golf, it’s free. This should be hammered over and over like the ntc drills.

After reviewing the Monte setup videos, he shows off a setup that looks like this:

 

His butt is pretty far behind his heels. Compare:

 

Seems like I could afford to get my butt a bit farther back, which I was artificially restricting based on the idea that I needed to do that to keep my hips over my ankles. Seems like a more athletic position, too, versus what I've been trying to do.

[MK7Golf21]

36 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

After reviewing the Monte setup videos, he shows off a setup that looks like this:

 

His butt is pretty far behind his heels. Compare:

 

Seems like I could afford to get my butt a bit farther back, which I was artificially restricting based on the idea that I needed to do that to keep my hips over my ankles. Seems like a more athletic position, too, versus what I've been trying to do.

 

I always looked at Mcilroys swing for posture. Just take a look at his and try to imitate. 

[GoGoErky]

32 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

After reviewing the Monte setup videos, he shows off a setup that looks like this:

 

His butt is pretty far behind his heels. Compare:

 

Seems like I could afford to get my butt a bit farther back, which I was artificially restricting based on the idea that I needed to do that to keep my hips over my ankles. Seems like a more athletic position, too, versus what I've been trying to do.

Not sure if you see it but your torso angle is more upright than theirs are.

 

We already see what happens in your swing when your butt is too far back. Go back to valtiel’s last post breaking down your swing and setup. 
 

you want certain joints stacked such ad hip over angle. 
 

Monte is a lot smarter than me and knows his swing better than I do. I would say he’s a little in his heels in that video, if you look at his IG posts and some other videos he has he’s not that far back.

 

[RayPlan]

44 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

I always looked at Mcilroys swing for posture. Just take a look at his and try to imitate. 

 

Seems like a solid choice to imitate. He and Adam Scott both have a couple more inches from their heel to their butt line than my setup, which looks barely more than a golf ball width. If I can't move my butt farther back past my heels, then I have to stand farther away from the ball. My hips are really crowding my hands at the butt of the club.

 

@GoGoErky I was intentionally trying to stand more upright and get closer to the ball in that image. This one below was my exaggerated forward tilt. Butt still close to my heel line.

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by RayPlan

[MonteScheinblum]

I’m a bad person to look at for this setup issue.  I am high waisted and short armed.

[RayPlan]

16 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m a bad person to look at for this setup issue.  I am high waisted and short armed.

In the video, you talked about there being some acceptable variation within a certain +/- range. Any reason I shouldn't allow my butt to move back a few inches? Like 2-3"? That would seem to fit within the acceptable range you talked about.

Edited December 24, 2024 by RayPlan

[MonteScheinblum]

46 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

In the video, you talked about there being some acceptable variation within a certain +/- range. Any reason I shouldn't allow my butt to move back a few inches? Like 2-3"? That would seem to fit within the acceptable range you talked about.

2-3” is quite a bit in this case 

[RayPlan]

So maybe 1-2"?

 

Side show: here's my swing from 2015 or 2016. 😬

 

(didn't realize I looked that thin back then)

 

 

[iacas]

@RayPlan, you're not comparing the same camera angles, etc. here either.

 

The line of pressure should generally start at the front of the arches of your feet, then move toward the trail heel during the backswing. If your weight is already back, it often has nowhere to go, and you end up moving it (your center of pressure) out toward the toes with the lead hip rotating out toward the ball.

 

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

Seems like a solid choice to imitate. He and Adam Scott both have a couple more inches from their heel to their butt line than my setup, which looks barely more than a golf ball width. If I can't move my butt farther back past my heels, then I have to stand farther away from the ball. My hips are really crowding my hands at the butt of the club.

 

@GoGoErky I was intentionally trying to stand more upright and get closer to the ball in that image. This one below was my exaggerated forward tilt. Butt still close to my heel line.

 

Outside of Monte’s fundamental video this is one for eh best out there for getting the right setup

 

 

[RayPlan]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Outside of Monte’s fundamental video this is one for eh best out there for getting the right setup

 

 

I watched this and another of his videos where he talked about the importance of setup. I'll pay extra close attention to work on setup, hopefully to the point where I don't need a mirror or camera to get it right every time.

 

When I first saw his setup video in Instagram, my perception was that the heels should be right under the edge of the butt (from DTL), but it looks like no one actually does that.

[MK7Golf21]

14 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

Seems like a solid choice to imitate. He and Adam Scott both have a couple more inches from their heel to their butt line than my setup, which looks barely more than a golf ball width. If I can't move my butt farther back past my heels, then I have to stand farther away from the ball. My hips are really crowding my hands at the butt of the club.

 

@GoGoErky I was intentionally trying to stand more upright and get closer to the ball in that image. This one below was my exaggerated forward tilt. Butt still close to my heel line.

 

I haven’t really looked at Rory’s posture lately, he might be more bent over now but he’s always been pretty neutral. I just remember like a decade ago him being neutral and he is average height, 5’10”. Plus he hits it a mile. 
 

Everyone always criticized Scott’s posture because he always got into a super rigid posture. 

 

 

[RayPlan]

Merry Christmas!

 

Working on keeping my right hip from firing toward the ball. I was taking video and noticed a weird, unrelated tendency that also shows up in videos where I take slow motion practice swings or partial swings with a ball. 

 

 

When I rotate through the impact area, I tend to turn my head to the left. It ends up creating an almost S-like shape to my spine. This looks nothing like what pros do, and if I'm ending up there, then it has to start earlier in the swing motion. 

 

 

Besides other noted issues, this isn't one I've really noticed before. I've seen videos that talk about the importance of the eye line in the swing, and if my head is tilting and turning in weird ways, that's probably going to affect my swing in some unpredictable ways.

 

Seems like a relatively easy thing to work on, especially since I do it unconsciously even without a club.

Edited December 25, 2024 by RayPlan

[iacas]

I’d be careful trying to make assessments like that with one 2D image. Your neck could be extended more, your hips aren’t nearly as open, etc.

 

Doesn’t feel like it’s your priority piece either. 😉

[LongNwrong27]

On 12/24/2024 at 9:28 AM, MK7Golf21 said:

I haven’t really looked at Rory’s posture lately, he might be more bent over now but he’s always been pretty neutral. I just remember like a decade ago him being neutral and he is average height, 5’10”. Plus he hits it a mile. 
 

Everyone always criticized Scott’s posture because he always got into a super rigid posture. 

 

 

Rigid or that flat looking posture is a function of your body type IMO. Guys like horschel , Rory and Adam Scott are all thin guys without a lot of mass tbh. Lee Westwood upper back/t spine never really going to look like that . OP closer to the Rory group build wise. 

[RayPlan]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I’d be careful trying to make assessments like that with one 2D image. Your neck could be extended more, your hips aren’t nearly as open, etc.

 

Doesn’t feel like it’s your priority piece either. 😉

I think it's a symptom, based on review of DTL and face on views of my swing.

 

Focusing on my neck position while rotating my body makes it easier for my whole body (including hips) to rotate, without even thinking about my hips. Compare these two moves (in pajamas) from a few hours apart:

 

1. Crooked neck

 

2. Aligned neck

 

I should mention that the right side of my neck has been stiff the last few days, along with some soreness in my right shoulder. I can't say for sure about my neck, but I think it's potentially related to my swing. Given what I've seen on my practice swings and slow mo videos, I think there's a decent chance it's related. So if I'm potentially causing injury and it affects my posture in the downswing, I think it may be worth prioritizing. 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I think it's a symptom, based on review of DTL and face on views of my swing.

 

Focusing on my neck position while rotating my body makes it easier for my whole body (including hips) to rotate, without even thinking about my hips. Compare these two moves (in pajamas) from a few hours apart:

 

1. Crooked neck

 

2. Aligned neck

 

I should mention that the right side of my neck has been stiff the last few days, along with some soreness in my right shoulder. I can't say for sure about my neck, but I think it's potentially related to my swing. Given what I've seen on my practice swings and slow mo videos, I think there's a decent chance it's related. So if I'm potentially causing injury and it affects my posture in the downswing, I think it may be worth prioritizing. 

 

 

Do you see any issues with your hips and your rotation in either of those videos?

[RayPlan]

37 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Do you see any issues with your hips and your rotation in either of those videos?

Yes, I see that my hip rotation is still limited. I have to think part of that is because I didn't unweight my right foot or rotate onto my right toe, since I was going slowly and barefoot on tile. 

 

But I avoided thrusting my right hip toward the ball. That's a plus.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

57 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Yes, I see that my hip rotation is still limited. I have to think part of that is because I didn't unweight my right foot or rotate onto my right toe, since I was going slowly and barefoot on tile. 

 

But I avoided thrusting my right hip toward the ball. That's a plus.

 

 

Your right your hip rotation is limited in the backswing. Your right hip gapes back some but it never goes behind you and all your doing is basically swaying to the lead side.

 

i disagree that your right hip doesn’t move toward the ball. Look at your left side and how it has moved away from the wall in both videos. It should stay on the wall at a minimum 

 

This is a reason Iacas says your head/neck thing isn’t your priority. 
 

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by GoGoErky

[notsohard]

Your set up has too much weight on the front foot. Your head then dips when you start you BS, from there it's all compensatory. 

See a good coach. 

 

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your right your hip rotation is limited in the backswing. Your right hip gapes back some but it never goes behind you and all your doing is basically swaying to the lead side.

 

i disagree that your right hip doesn’t move toward the ball. Look at your left side and how it has moved away from the wall in both videos. It should stay on the wall at a minimum 

 

This is a reason Iacas says your head/neck thing isn’t your priority. 

 

Two things: it's not hard to fix, and it's definitely not doing me any favors. It's also not a controversial idea that the head can lead the body. I think it's worth doing this in service of my #1 priority, because it very clearly influences everything below my neck. I'm not trying to act like this will be a panacea that fixes all my problems. It does change the feel of the swing and my perception of my body position.

[iacas]

Oh boy.

23 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Two things: it's not hard to fix, and it's definitely not doing me any favors. It's also not a controversial idea that the head can lead the body. I think it's worth doing this in service of my #1 priority, because it very clearly influences everything below my neck. I'm not trying to act like this will be a panacea that fixes all my problems. It does change the feel of the swing and my perception of my body position.

 

I don't agree that you should care about that at all right now, and it's gonna pull focus from what you need to care about.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Two things: it's not hard to fix, and it's definitely not doing me any favors. It's also not a controversial idea that the head can lead the body. I think it's worth doing this in service of my #1 priority, because it very clearly influences everything below my neck. I'm not trying to act like this will be a panacea that fixes all my problems. It does change the feel of the swing and my perception of my body position.

In your “good” video your hips were still moving incorrectly and you weren’t able to see that your hips were moving towards the ball.

 

i agree with @iacas it’s taking attrition away from the major things that need addressing.

 

Get a good GAP and work on your hips. Then see what happens with your head and neck. I would venture to guess you will see that it resolves it self. Not to mention he already cautioned you about making assessments on a 2d image.

 

You go down rabbit holes that get you off the path to improvement

[RayPlan]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Oh boy.

 

I don't agree that you should care about that at all right now, and it's gonna pull focus from what you need to care about.

Sorry. Is the risk that I'll be trying to do two things at once, making it harder to execute on the more important one? Sort of the "too many swing thoughts" problem?

 

I value your opinion, so let me just ask: how would you articulate what I need to care about? The reason I ask is because it's possible to break things down to a really granular level, or look at more of a big picture.

 

So, e.g., "you need to focus on getting your hips to rotate" vs. "you need to unweight your right foot as you shift toward the target and cause your hips to rotate by extending your left leg" vs. "you need to feel A in the B part of your lower body while doing C, which should feel like D and cause your hips to do E, and you'll know you're doing it correctly because it will feel like F." 

 

I find working on the hip rotation issue so frustrating because I try to take things slowly, but I can't seem to get the correct feel. Trying to do these movements in slow motion just feels awkward and wrong, and video just confirms what I suspected about what I'm doing wrong. 

[RayPlan]

12 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

In your “good” video your hips were still moving incorrectly and you weren’t able to see that your hips were moving towards the ball.

 

i agree with @iacas it’s taking attrition away from the major things that need addressing.

 

Get a good GAP and work on your hips. Then see what happens with your head and neck. I would venture to guess you will see that it resolves it self. Not to mention he already cautioned you about making assessments on a 2d image.

 

You go down rabbit holes that get you off the path to improvement

How's this for hip rotation? 

The feel was to get my right back pocket pointing toward the target, then the left back pocket pointing back toward the camera. It's a tip I remember hearing from a while back, and it looks like it keeps my right hip from crossing the yellow line toward the ball.

 

I probably spent close to an hour this morning just trying to figure out this movement. Woke up before everyone else this morning and figured I might as well do something. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by RayPlan