Ray Ray's Swing Thread

[GoGoErky]

31 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

How's this for hip rotation? 

 

The feel was to get my right back pocket pointing toward the target, then the left back pocket pointing back toward the camera. It's a tip I remember hearing from a while back, and it looks like it keeps my right hip from crossing the yellow line toward the ball.

 

I probably spent close to an hour this morning just trying to figure out this movement. Woke up before everyone else this morning and figured I might as well do something. 

This looks like nothing more than just straightening the right leg and then bringing the left hip out, and may too much lateral movement to the lead side.

 

it would be better if you used a wall to get a feeling for the right side making contact with the wall and sliding then the left side.

not the same angle but a good drill for the shift and turn.

 

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAGdO8Kvfl

 

 

Another good one

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAKiR-91dC

 

Great video from behind showing the hips

https://www.instagram.com/share/_p_brCw33

 

Dtl for right hip back and then left hip back

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAB3eHQ5GJ

[RayPlan]

38 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

This looks like nothing more than just straightening the right leg and then bringing the left hip out, and may too much lateral movement to the lead side.

Do you mean in the backswing turn here?

 

38 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

it would be better if you used a wall to get a feeling for the right side making contact with the wall and sliding then the left side.

Will add that. I just don't want to get too dependent on feeling something that won't be there in a real swing. 

 

38 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

not the same angle but a good drill for the shift and turn.

 

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAGdO8Kvfl

 

 

Another good one

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAKiR-91dC

 

Great video from behind showing the hips

https://www.instagram.com/share/_p_brCw33

 

Dtl for right hip back and then left hip back

https://www.instagram.com/share/BAB3eHQ5GJ

 

I always forget about Instagram as a source of good golf info. Thanks

[GoGoErky]

17 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Do you mean in the backswing turn here?

Yes

 

17 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Will add that. I just don't want to get too dependent on feeling something that won't be there in a real swing. 

It will be there in the real swing, that’s the purpose of training it that way. There has to be feedback of some kind. Not having the wall takes that away and you end up with what’s in your video.

 

wall drills are prescribed by a number of top instructors. Why is that? Because of the feedback from the drill. The shift drill from Monte i posted is on a wall. 
 

 

[slytown]

4 hours ago, RayPlan said:

How's this for hip rotation? 

 

The feel was to get my right back pocket pointing toward the target, then the left back pocket pointing back toward the camera. It's a tip I remember hearing from a while back, and it looks like it keeps my right hip from crossing the yellow line toward the ball.

 

I probably spent close to an hour this morning just trying to figure out this movement. Woke up before everyone else this morning and figured I might as well do something. 

 

 

You are not rotating here. You are just tilting. You don't get anymore hip or shoulder depth with that move.

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

 

You are not rotating here. You are just tilting. You don't get anymore hip or shoulder depth with that move.

At what point(s)? Could you explain?

 

Edit:

Worth noting that this was like 6am at my in-laws' house. Not exactly peak limberness or vigor. Just taking the opportunity to do some movements while everyone else was still asleep.

Edited December 26, 2024 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

2 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

At what point(s)? Could you explain?

He’s pointing out the samething I did just in a different way

[iacas]

3 hours ago, slytown said:

You are not rotating here. You are just tilting. You don't get anymore hip or shoulder depth with that move.

 

It's rotation, but not really the right kind of rotation.

 

Left hip comes in too far (without the right hip socket going back much), right thigh rotates out too far… etc.

 

Yeah.

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It's rotation, but not really the right kind of rotation.

 

Left hip comes in too far (without the right hip socket going back much), right thigh rotates out too far… etc.

 

Yeah.

I'll be honest, rotating without allowing the right hip to come forward feels almost impossible. I watched the videos posted by @GoGoErky, but just can't seem to make the critical move where my left hip turns back and around, and the right remains on the line.

 

The only way I can find to get that effect is by forced contortions, which is obviously not how it's described in any video I've seen, and which can't possibly be correct. 

 

AMG has shown how the pelvis turns around its center, so that center has to get pretty far back to allow the whole system to rotate without the right coming forward toward the ball. It seems so simple to understand in theory, but it haven't been able to translate that 

 

I understand the assignment here, I just don't know how to make my body do it, and it's very frustrating.

[iacas]

 

You can't feel and do a little bit of that?

 

29 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

The only way I can find to get that effect is by forced contortions, which is obviously not how it's described in any video I've seen, and which can't possibly be correct. 

 

You need to do the movement properly, and see what it feels like to you.

 

It may feel like a "forced contortion" to exaggerate it as much as DJ does it above, but that should just clue you in as to how extreme it may have to feel for awhile.

 

Stand next to a table and make yourself move like this:

 

 

See what that feels like and then get to work. Doing something like this would at least show you that you can do it.

 

I don't believe for a second you can't "do" it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

28 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I'll be honest, rotating without allowing the right hip to come forward feels almost impossible. I watched the videos posted by @GoGoErky, but just can't seem to make the critical move where my left hip turns back and around, and the right remains on the line.

 

The only way I can find to get that effect is by forced contortions, which is obviously not how it's described in any video I've seen, and which can't possibly be correct. 

 

AMG has shown how the pelvis turns around its center, so that center has to get pretty far back to allow the whole system to rotate without the right coming forward toward the ball. It seems so simple to understand in theory, but it haven't been able to translate that 

 

I understand the assignment here, I just don't know how to make my body do it, and it's very frustrating.

 

I've been there. Still working on it lol...

 

Note: the right hip can, will, and should come forward. The AMG video on the pelvis shows this. The main point is that the left hip coming back should be what moves the right hip forward, NOT that you should be moving the right hip forward while the left hip is stationary... That's how you get to early extension and paying child support to a goat. 

 

For me, it's ALL about not getting stuck on the trail side. IMHO you'll never get that lead hip back if you don't have pressure on the lead foot early enough, because you frankly have no pressure on that foot to push against to move that hip. And if you have nothing to push against, you can't push. And if you can't push, the lead hip won't move back. You end up pushing off the trail foot, which pushes the trail hip forward, and then you're a goat's husband. 

 

This is the problem when everything you're filming is DTL, in my opinion. You might be focusing on the hips when you're in a position stuck on the trail side where you're basically incapable of moving the hips the right way. 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Note: the right hip can, will, and should come forward. The AMG video on the pelvis shows this. The main point is that the left hip coming back should be what moves the right hip forward, NOT that you should be moving the right hip forward while the left hip is stationary... That's how you get to early extension and paying child support to a goat. 

 

For me, it's ALL about not getting stuck on the trail side. IMHO you'll never get that lead hip back if you don't have pressure on the lead foot early enough, because you frankly have no pressure on that foot to push against to move that hip. And if you have nothing to push against, you can't push. And if you can't push, the lead hip won't move back. You end up pushing off the trail foot, which pushes the trail hip forward, and then you're a goat's husband. 

 

This is the problem when everything you're filming is DTL, in my opinion. You might be focusing on the hips when you're in a position stuck on the trail side where you're basically incapable of moving the hips the right way. 

 

He needs to clean up the backswing before he starts thinking about/worrying about the downswing.

[RayPlan]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

He needs to clean up the backswing before he starts thinking about/worrying about the downswing.

Anything in particular about the backswing?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Anything in particular about the backswing?

 

 

@RayPlan, I recommend you find a good instructor you trust, and work diligently on your priority piece with them. In person, they'll be able to show you what you should be working on, and while testing what you are and aren't capable of doing.

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by iacas

[betarhoalphadelta]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

He needs to clean up the backswing before he starts thinking about/worrying about the downswing.

Makes sense. Looking at various things he doesn't get trail hip depth in the backswing at all, right? Hard to recover from that if you've never had it in the first place...

 

That wasn't my issue. I got that depth in the trail hip, but then lost it in the downswing due to getting stuck on the trail side. 

 

[mshills]

12 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

I always forget about Instagram as a source of good golf info. Thanks

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, mshills said:

If he’s following ntc there’s no harm

in looking at Monte’s ig.

 

its all about perspective of what its being used for 

[RayPlan]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

 

@RayPlan, I recommend you find a good instructor you trust, and work diligently on your priority piece with them. In person, they'll be able to show you what you should be working on, and while testing what you are and aren't capable of doing.

 

I got so focused on the right hip that I didn't realize I was allowing the left hip to get in the way. Of course it felt impossible.

 

 

I'm like the guy on the left, letting my left hip come way forward, which would be the mirror image of what my right hip would do in the downswing. If I first focus on keeping my left hip from moving toward the ball, then I can more easily do the same on the downswing. 

 

(Note: yellow line isn't perfectly perpendicular to the ground, due to unsophisticated tool usage. Also feels awkward as a new movement, and it being early morning.)

 

The above video is an initial test of the feel of getting the center of my pelvis to move with this exaggerated feeling:

(The video shows the pro's center of pelvis actually return to the start point before moving back and left, but I was using an exaggerated move for effect)

 

I obviously need to refine the movements, but I think I'm at least on the right track here, based on the evidence.

 

I got fixated on the downswing move without realizing that the backswing move set me up for failure. That caused me to focus on a symptom (right hip lunging toward the ball in downswing) rather than the cause (center of pelvis moving toward the ball in the backswing).

 

Will keep slowly working on this element, assuming I'm not off-base here.

 

 

[iacas]

You're so stiff and restricted in the video you just posted that your "shoulder turn" is, what, 65°? And you're bent over below the 45° line… etc.

 

 

I feel like you're making this way harder than it has to be, and will repeat this:

 

13 hours ago, iacas said:

@RayPlan, I recommend you find a good instructor you trust, and work diligently on your priority piece with them. In person, they'll be able to show you what you should be working on, and while testing what you are and aren't capable of doing.

 

[RayPlan]

I was purely focused on hip movement here, so I wasn't too worried about getting other elements strictly correct. 

 

 

Now that I'm keeping my left hip from swinging toward the ball, I think I now grasp the problem of setting up with my butt too far behind my heels. It visibly gets me onto my left heel too early, then I have nowhere left to go. I think this is why my left hip comes off the line in the follow through here, because my left leg can't lean that far left without doing something weird. 

 

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're so stiff and restricted in the video you just posted that your "shoulder turn" is, what, 65°? And you're bent over below the 45° line… etc.

 

 

I feel like you're making this way harder than it has to be, and will repeat this:

 

 

I don't do well without a club in my hands, clearly. It gives me a physical reference to the ground for the purpose of my forward tilt and helps my shoulder turn, since I normally have a club when I'm making that movement. Is that unusual, in your experience?

Edited December 27, 2024 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

31 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I was purely focused on hip movement here, so I wasn't too worried about getting other elements strictly correct. 

You’re still stiff in this video and pretty much doing the samething you did on the wall.

 

31 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Now that I'm keeping my left hip from swinging toward the ball, I think I now grasp the problem of setting up with my butt too far behind my heels.

Except you’re keeping from coming towards the ball the wrong way as pointed out by iacas in your wall video. I feel like you’re not seeing the whole picture and if you see your hip not go towards the ball then it’s a good thing, even if how you’re doing it is incorrect. Being able to self evaluate everything that’s going on is critical in the go it alone way of fixing a swing.

 

34 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I don't do well without a club in my hands, clearly. It gives me a physical reference to the ground for the purpose of my forward tilt and helps my shoulder turn, since I normally have a club when I'm making that movement. Is that unusual, in your experience?

But you’re not doing well with a club in your hand either. 
 

I gave you a link to a video from Monte for pressure shifting and turning. That one can use a club or not using one.

 

Have you tried that drill?

 

I know Iacas mentioned in a previous post about finding a good in person instructor to work with who can show you what to do. I agree that is probably going to be your best approach to improving 

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

You’re still stiff in this video and pretty much doing the samething you did on the wall.

 

Except you’re keeping from coming towards the ball the wrong way as pointed out by iacas in your wall video. I feel like you’re not seeing the whole picture and if you see your hip not go towards the ball then it’s a good thing, even if how you’re doing it is incorrect. Being able to self evaluate everything that’s going on is critical in the go it alone way of fixing a swing.

 

But you’re not doing well with a club in your hand either. 
 

I recorded the video with the club before his reply, and was in the middle of posting it when he replied. I didn't have the benefit of his feedback about stiffness. 

 

But would you realistically expect me to do something well the first time I've tried it? It's a movement pattern I have never exhibited in any video I've posted here. I can almost guarantee if I was getting in-person instruction, I would be stiff and do it incorrectly at least the first few tries. I've watched videos of people getting lessons, and they don't just nail it first try. It takes iteration and correction. 

 

I have no illusions that I'm some kind of golf savant who can perfectly absorb new information online and put it into practice. I record and post things that I know have flaws, not because I'm trying to show off how awesome I am at fixing my swing. 

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

I gave you a link to a video from Monte for pressure shifting and turning. That one can use a club or not using one.

 

Have you tried that drill?

I have tried the drill. It didn't work for me because I didn't realize that my left hip was coming toward the ball the way it was, and I couldn't move properly in the drill as a result. Now that I'm more conscious of why it failed, I'll revisit it. I don't just ignore advice. Every time I learn something new, I should probably revisit every piece of good advice posted in this thread. Some advice only makes sense with the benefit of understanding that comes later. I've had that happen several times here, I'm not nearly as clueless as I was when I first posted this thread.

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

I know Iacas mentioned in a previous post about finding a good in person instructor to work with who can show you what to do. I agree that is probably going to be your best approach to improving 

 

I'm sure it would be, but that's not really in the cards right now.

 

If you're getting too many notifications from me on this, I can stop quote-posting you. I don't want to be annoying.

 

 

[RayPlan]

Anyway, here's an example from me doing reps to try to be less stiff. 

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

But would you realistically expect me to do something well the first time I've tried it? It's a movement pattern I have never exhibited in any video I've posted here. I can almost guarantee if I was getting in-person instruction, I would be stiff and do it incorrectly at least the first few tries. I've watched videos of people getting lessons, and they don't just nail it first try. It takes iteration and correction. 

You’re missing the point. It’s not whether you’re doing it correctly or not the first time. It’s that your comments/analysis of what you’re doing aren’t able to identify the problems. Example your video the other day on the wall. You were happy that your right hip wasn’t going towards the ball, when in reality is was and can be seen both in where your right hip was and that your left side wasn’t on the wall. Your focus in your analysis is on one small piece and not the whole picture. 
 

you’re right people just don’t nail things in a lesson the first time. The advantage of a lesson is you have an expert to guide you through what’s happening and if need be can physically move you to

show you how to do it. A lot of people can’t take verbal/written feedback from a video analysis and apply it to their swing, which is why in person lessons work better for alot of people.

 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I have tried the drill. It didn't work for me because I didn't realize that my left hip was coming toward the ball the way it was, and I couldn't move properly in the drill as a result.

Here in lies what part of the problem is imo. You do something it doesn’t work you try something else, and also the point of the practice thread @iacasstarted. You have to figure out what you’re not doing right then break that down and work on it through reps, feels, exaggerations and slowly. For example in that drill if it was the rotation of the drill is the issue, ignore the anything after that in the video and work on slow movements trying to nail the rotation parts, video yourself doing it and compare to the video of the drill to see if you are getting closer. 
 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I'm sure it would be, but that's not really in the cards right now.

 

If you're getting too many notifications from me on this, I can stop quote-posting you. I don't want to be annoying.

If you were being annoying I would stop replying, I’m here to try and help.

[GoGoErky]

40 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Anyway, here's an example from me doing reps to try to be less stiff. 

 

 

 

The restriction in the “backswing” is gone. Keep working on the backswing portion to help engrain it
 

 

[RayPlan]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You can't feel and do a little bit of that?

 

 

You need to do the movement properly, and see what it feels like to you.

 

It may feel like a "forced contortion" to exaggerate it as much as DJ does it above, but that should just clue you in as to how extreme it may have to feel for awhile.

 

Stand next to a table and make yourself move like this:

 

 

See what that feels like and then get to work. Doing something like this would at least show you that you can do it.

 

I don't believe for a second you can't "do" it.

Ok, mea culpa, I somehow missed this post. I'll try that.

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Here in lies what part of the problem is imo. You do something it doesn’t work you try something else, and also the point of the practice thread @iacasstarted. You have to figure out what you’re not doing right then break that down and work on it through reps, feels, exaggerations and slowly. For example in that drill if it was the rotation of the drill is the issue, ignore the anything after that in the video and work on slow movements trying to nail the rotation parts, video yourself doing it and compare to the video of the drill to see if you are getting closer.

In this instance, when it didn't work, I set out trying to figure out why. With some helpful pointers from you and others, plus some AMG videos, I found the real reason. I couldn't glean enough information from the drill video itself, so I had to supplement with more information to break it down. But without branching out, I don't think I would have gotten to a solution. Lately, I've been trying to take a more troubleshooting-style approach, which I think fits into the good, boring practice style that iacas advocates in that thread. Part of the reason I've made progress in the last 2 days is because I've been going slowly and comparing videos, trying to see if I'm getting closer, then thinking about the movements while I'm not actively doing them or reviewing video. There's a lot of work that I'm not showing here, because I can't post every video in full, and it would take excessively long to describe my whole thought process and map out how I'm approaching every problem.

[mshills]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Part of the reason I've made progress in the last 2 days…

Oh man. 😱
 

Consider the time and repetitions necessary to change a movement pattern in the context of the above statement.  Good luck. 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, mshills said:

Oh man. 😱
 

Consider the time and repetitions necessary to change a movement pattern in the context of the above statement.  Good luck. 

 

I think he's made progress with his "understanding," not the actual ingraining of the movement. And I don't think he's 80% of the way there with the understanding, either, but it's still progress from where he started.

[RayPlan]

57 minutes ago, mshills said:

Oh man. 😱
 

Consider the time and repetitions necessary to change a movement pattern in the context of the above statement.  Good luck. 

Time investment and improvement don't necessarily have a linear relationship.

 

I've wasted far more hours in the past trying to "work on" swing faults by taking full swings into a net than I have with the paltry amount of time I've spent on this in the last couple days during spare moments otherwise spent doing Christmas stuff with family. If I'd spent more time like this since the time I posted this thread, I'd probably be farther along. 

 

We'll see!

[RayPlan]

@GoGoErky @iacas I have a sort of biomechanical feedback question that I haven't seen addressed in materials that cover hip rotation. On the backswing turn, when it feels like I'm turning properly (as opposed to just straightening my right leg), I can feel the muscle stretching on the outside of my right glute, which increases in tightness the more I turn.

 

Is that a normal sensation when making a good turn?

 

Is that sensation something I could use as feedback that I'm rotating my hips properly? 

 

It doesn't cause discomfort, it just feels like the muscle is providing some resistance. It also feels like a muscle that hasn't gotten much work, which would make sense if my swing hasn't been using that muscle properly. 

 

Or it could just be a side effect of something I'm doing incorrectly. It's not easy to get specifics on what I'm feeling here.