Ray Ray's Swing Thread

[GoGoErky]

10 hours ago, RayPlan said:

@GoGoErky @iacas I have a sort of biomechanical feedback question that I haven't seen addressed in materials that cover hip rotation. On the backswing turn, when it feels like I'm turning properly (as opposed to just straightening my right leg), I can feel the muscle stretching on the outside of my right glute, which increases in tightness the more I turn.

 

Is that a normal sensation when making a good turn?

 

Is that sensation something I could use as feedback that I'm rotating my hips properly? 

 

It doesn't cause discomfort, it just feels like the muscle is providing some resistance. It also feels like a muscle that hasn't gotten much work, which would make sense if my swing hasn't been using that muscle properly. 

 

Or it could just be a side effect of something I'm doing incorrectly. It's not easy to get specifics on what I'm feeling here. 

There’s going to be a slight stretch since there’s some extension on the trail leg.

 

I don’t know if I would use that sensation  as a determination for doing things right. You could over rotate the hips and would probably feel that.

 

Since I can’t feel what your feeling I can’t speak to the last two paragraphs.

 

Proper hip rotation and shifting is something I have to constantly work on myself.

 

 

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

There’s going to be a slight stretch since there’s some extension on the trail leg.

 

I don’t know if I would use that sensation  as a determination for doing things right. You could over rotate the hips and would probably feel that.

 

Since I can’t feel what your feeling I can’t speak to the last two paragraphs.

 

Proper hip rotation and shifting is something I have to constantly work on myself.

 

 

I'm following the advice that the right hip should go up and back in the downswing, as described in this Pete Cowen short (and in many other sources):

 

 

When I turn like this, I feel the stretch I described, and I get better rotation.

 

As with any novel muscle movement, I imagine the feeling will be reduced once my body is more accustomed to moving that way.

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by RayPlan

[RayPlan]

First time hitting balls in a bit, and one thing that's consistent with my drills is that I'm pretty uncoordinated when it comes to my right leg/foot in the finish. I never get into this kind of position:

 

In motion, it looks like Adam Scott here brings his right knee in close to his left leg as his right heel rotates up and out, finishing up on his toe. My finish feels incomplete and unbalanced without that position. 

 

Case in point:

If I had been able to rotate my right heel up and get onto my toe, I wouldn't have lost my balance here. Obviously there are other issues still present, like my feet reverting to a closed position, my takeaway (hands not inside, need to set wrists earlier), my legs being a bit straight, and my camera position being off-center. But the finish seems like a missing bit of technique that I never picked up, and if nothing else, it can be embarrassing. But I suspect it's hurting me in other ways, too.

 

 

It's like I can't unweight my right foot more in the downswing, because my body wants to keep from losing balance, but the reaction is this toe plant, which makes me lose balance in the follow through.

Edited December 28, 2024 by RayPlan

[iacas]

57 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

in the finish

 

Why do you care about the finish right now?

 

Please mind the camera angles. You can even have a "bad" camera angle if you insist, but it needs to be the same every time. But… this is a bad camera angle:

 

[GoGoErky]

57 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

First time hitting balls in a bit, and one thing that's consistent with my drills is that I'm pretty uncoordinated when it comes to my right leg/foot in the finish. I never get into this kind of position:

 

In motion, it looks like Adam Scott here brings his right knee in close to his left leg as his right heel rotates up and out, finishing up on his toe. My finish feels incomplete and unbalanced without that position. 

 

Case in point:

 

If I had been able to rotate my right heel up and get onto my toe, I wouldn't have lost my balance here. Obviously there are other issues still present, like my feet reverting to a closed position, my takeaway (hands not inside, need to set wrists earlier), my legs being a bit straight, and my camera position being off-center. But the finish seems like a missing bit of technique that I never picked up, and if nothing else, it can be embarrassing. But I suspect it's hurting me in other ways, too.

 

 

It's like I can't unweight my right foot more in the downswing, because my body wants to keep from losing balance, but the reaction is this toe plant, which makes me lose balance in the follow through.

Too identified the posture; the worst set, etc,

 

you can’t unweight your right foot because your not getting to your left side earlier enough. You don’t have have any pressure shift to the trail side to start the swing which makes rotation harder in the backswing. You have to learn the shift and turn in the backswing and then shift and turn in the downswing.

 

you have to do lots of slow reps and the drills to start engraining the new movement pattern, film yourself doing the drills to make sure your doing them right. Film yourself hitting balls at a slower speed again to see if the movements are making their way into your swing and continue filming your regular swing.

 

fix the backswing before worrying about the finish 

 

 

[RayPlan]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Why do you care about the finish right now?

 

Please mind the camera angles. You can even have a "bad" camera angle if you insist, but it needs to be the same every time. But… this is a bad camera angle:

 

I need to figure out a way to get a reliable camera angle every time. I assumed this was just a stance issue though. I've never been good at aiming, which probably won't come as a surprise.

 

As for the finish, it seems like it's not the finish itself, but how I get there. Seems like I'm missing something about the rotation that leads to the finish. But I don't know what I don't know here.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I need to figure out a way to get a reliable camera angle every time. I assumed this was just a stance issue though. I've never been good at aiming, which probably won't come as a surprise.

 

Simple:

- Wrist height

- Through the wrists, parallel or perpendicular to the target line

 

DL, that often means just barely outside the toe line. Or on the toe line.

 

3 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

As for the finish, it seems like it's not the finish itself, but how I get there. Seems like I'm missing something about the rotation that leads to the finish. But I don't know what I don't know here.

 

Stop worrying about the finish. You probably shouldn't care about the finish (and it will get better without you caring about it at all) for a year. Maybe three.

 

Fix your priority thing. It will take months. Focus on that.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by iacas
Wished him luck

[RayPlan]

57 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Too identified the posture; the worst set, etc,

 

you can’t unweight your right foot because your not getting to your left side earlier enough. You don’t have have any pressure shift to the trail side to start the swing which makes rotation harder in the backswing. You have to learn the shift and turn in the backswing and then shift and turn in the downswing.

 

you have to do lots of slow reps and the drills to start engraining the new movement pattern, film yourself doing the drills to make sure your doing them right. Film yourself hitting balls at a slower speed again to see if the movements are making their way into your swing and continue filming your regular swing.

 

fix the backswing before worrying about the finish 

 

 

So should my initial shift right be visually distinct from the turn on video? Are they too blended together here?

 

Good reminder about shift-turn. My forced slow motion hip stuff made me forget about timing and rhythm.

 

@iacas re: camera position, getting on the toe line is a helpful tip. I've seen advice to center it on your hands, but that's so inconsistent for me, especially when my little mat moves around from impact and I don't get it back in exactly the same spot. Plus my setup inconsistencies. 

 

My concern was that I was missing some important piece, so thanks for knocking that down.  

Edited December 29, 2024 by RayPlan
Expressing thanks for the camera tips and for keeping me on track

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

So should my initial shift right be visually distinct from the turn on video? Are they too blended together here?

Your shift to the trail side is way late. Your hands were at hip height before you even started to try and get pressure to the trail side. The shift happens at the start and is over by p2 but no later than p3

 

 

Get a club, alignment stick, pvc pipe and put it down parallel to target line and to hep with camera anglr

under the hands 

[getitdaily]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

So should my initial shift right be visually distinct from the turn on video? Are they too blended together here?

 

Good reminder about shift-turn. My forced slow motion hip stuff made me forget about timing and rhythm.

 

@iacas re: camera position, getting on the toe line is a helpful tip. I've seen advice to center it on your hands, but that's so inconsistent for me, especially when my little mat moves around from impact and I don't get it back in exactly the same spot. Plus my setup inconsistencies. 

 

My concern was that I was missing some important piece, so thanks for knocking that down.  

Get a door stop. Put it under your trail foot so the incline of the doorstop is going away from the target. 

 

You need to shift into the INSIDE of your trail foot. You shift onto the OUTSIDE of your trail foot.

 

You could also benefit from hitting shots with the feeling of ZERO wrist set in the backswing. 

[bmbsawy]

This man needs a coach more than anyone I’ve ever seen. The desire to improve and learn is commendable but I have a feeling OP is going to spin wheels for years.. good luck on your journey 👍🏼

[RayPlan]

29 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Your shift to the trail side is way late. Your hands were at hip height before you even started to try and get pressure to the trail side. The shift happens at the start and is over by p2 but no later than p3

 

 

Get a club, alignment stick, pvc pipe and put it down parallel to target line and to hep with camera anglr

under the hands 

 

That's actually a bit of a regression since I started on NTC. If there's a right shift in there, it's only implied. I had an early shift before.

 

12/10/24 swing:

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

22 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

 

That's actually a bit of a regression since I started on NTC. If there's a right shift in there, it's only implied. I had an early shift before.

 

12/10/24 swing:

 

 

 

Your early shift wasn’t a shift .you can go back and review valtiels breakdown of this swing.

 

Edit: since starting ntc you’ve posted numerous videos working on everything but ntc.

 

The hip rotation will get worked out on ntc it’s basically the basis if that series. Drill the wrist set and the hands to 7 over and over

Edited December 29, 2024 by GoGoErky

[RayPlan]

8 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your early shift wasn’t a shift .you can go back and review valtiels breakdown of this swing.

 

Edit: since starting ntc you’ve posted numerous videos working on everything but ntc.

 

The hip rotation will get worked out on ntc it’s basically the basis if that series. Drill the wrist set and the hands to 7 over and over

Holidays meant I wasn't able to work on the NTC stuff directly, and that was all just a few days after I bought it. I got some good insights on setup and backswing stuff, which has helped make more sense out of some of the NTC methods. I also figured out today that my arms have been causing me to do something stupid in my slow motion swings (observed this while reviewing my swing videos). Now I know how to keep better structure in my arms, which will help the NTC movements.

 

Side note: rotating my hips with the shift-turn works much better for me if I do it quickly, rather than I'm slow motion.

 

Edit:

Here's me figuring out a serious arm fault on video. Without realizing it, I was doing the "leave the arms up and rotate" movement that AMG debunked in their arms-lowering video. It was making me bend myself into a candy cane just trying to get the club down the the ball. The "Eureka" moment was the simple thought to keep my arms closer together.

 

 

This movement was infecting other aspects of my swing, especially the weight shift and hip rotation, because of the excessive forward/side bend required to get into impact without just lowering my arms relative to my body. 

 

It was also making it very difficult to do the NTC movements, because I was getting in weird positions, like this:

 

My neck has ended up where my shoulders were in my setup.

 

All of this cascaded down from my arms getting disconnected from each other. It feels tremendously stupid to recognize all this now.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by RayPlan
Epiphany about things I already knew, but didn't realize I wasn't doing properly.

[RayPlan]

16 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your early shift wasn’t a shift .you can go back and review valtiels breakdown of this swing.

 

Edit: since starting ntc you’ve posted numerous videos working on everything but ntc.

 

The hip rotation will get worked out on ntc it’s basically the basis if that series. Drill the wrist set and the hands to 7 over and over

I probably don't necessarily need a club for this.

 

(Sped up video for the sake of efficiency)

Edited December 29, 2024 by RayPlan

[iacas]

@RayPlan, my best advice at this point: stop all of what you're doing. Just make some thought-free swings for a day or two or three. You need to press the reset button. In the past week or two you've had three epiphanies and have worked on 12 different things. I typed that out thinking it was an exaggeration, but the more I think about it, the closer to the truth it seems to be.

 

I have no idea what you're doing in your sandals next to the fridge. You're not turning. Your lower body isn't doing much of anything. You're just pulling your arms across your body.

 

Stop.

 

Reset.

 

Then find a single priority thing and work on it the right way. Ideally with an instructor, even an online one.

 

Stop. Reset. Focus on one thing. Know that it's going to take quite awhile to actually change your movement patterns at speed.

 

Or, continue to chase whatever it is you're chasing here.

[mshills]

You’ve got to find a local instructor who’s willing to be incredibly direct with you and keep you focused. The instructor may not be nice about it, and that is okay. After you find that person, in person, you must commit to working on the one thing she/he wants you to work on in the way they want you working on it.
 

There is no other way. What is happening in this thread is madness and you will never be able to play competent golf with your head, heart, and body all going sixteen thousand different directions at once. 

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@RayPlan, my best advice at this point: stop all of what you're doing. Just make some thought-free swings for a day or two or three. You need to press the reset button. In the past week or two you've had three epiphanies and have worked on 12 different things. I typed that out thinking it was an exaggeration, but the more I think about it, the closer to the truth it seems to be.

 

I have no idea what you're doing in your sandals next to the fridge. You're not turning. Your lower body isn't doing much of anything. You're just pulling your arms across your body.

 

Stop.

 

Reset.

 

Then find a single priority thing and work on it the right way. Ideally with an instructor, even an online one.

 

Stop. Reset. Focus on one thing. Know that it's going to take quite awhile to actually change your movement patterns at speed.

 

Or, continue to chase whatever it is you're chasing here.

This is my attempt to reset. I bought No Turn Cast, but I haven't been very focused on it.

 

I'm trying to drill the very first part of the "No Turn" backswing, which is just the wrist set and pushing the hands to 7 o'clock. This is literally all Monte says to do in part 1, before moving onto part 2 (and beyond). He says in part 1 (at 3m 45s), quote: "We're not going to worry about body rotation at all." So I'm not going to worry about it yet.

 

I'm going to follow the instructions in the videos as closely as possible and do nothing else. No more getting sidetracked like I have for a few pages now. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by RayPlan
Quote from video

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

He says nothing about rotation or shifting in part 1 of the backswing.

 

 

13 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I'm going to follow the instructions in the videos as closely as possible and do nothing else. No more getting sidetracked like I have for a few pages now. 

 

Your backswing stuff might take months. Years, even.

 

Good luck.

[RayPlan]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

 

Your backswing stuff might take months. Years, even.

 

Good luck.

Yes, I can see that his hips are rotated while he's doing that. But at 3 minutes and 45 seconds into that first lesson, he directly says "we're not going to worry about body rotation at all." I'd much rather follow the material faithfully than try to read between the lines or substitute my judgment. I've already shown how perilous that can be.

 

Edit:

The obvious critique would be that by taking the instruction too literally, I made myself so stiff and mechanical that it made me resist body rotation that would come naturally in response to getting my hands to 7, like when Monte shows it.

 

And further, this is exactly what an instructor would be able to tell me very quickly.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by RayPlan
Anticipating criticism

[iacas]

 

Sheesh. Okay then.

 

I've only been trying to help. Monte says "push the club back toward 7:00" or whatever, but he shows that he "pushes" with his body. You bent your right elbow a bunch and pulled your left arm across your chest.

 

Watch what he's showing you, too.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by iacas
Expanded

[PNWGuy]

20 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

And further, this is exactly what an instructor would be able to tell me very quickly.

 

 

Me thinks an instructor has already told you something else.

[RayPlan]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Sheesh. Okay then.

I don't mean any disrespect, I just feel like I have to demonstrate some self-awareness at times so I don't come off as an easily distracted goofball who watches too many YouTube videos and doesn't listen to advice.

 

I'll make a commitment right now: if I'm still flailing 30 days from now, I'll start working with an instructor in-person. 

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

that. But at 3 minutes and 45 seconds into that first lesson, he directly says "we're not going to worry about body rotation at all." I'd much rather follow the material faithfully than try to read between the lines or substitute my judgment. I've already shown how perilous that can be.

He is saying that because the arms to 7 creates the necessary rotation. As demonstrated in the photo posted.

 

You have misinterpreted what he’s saying and aren’t pushing your hands to 7, you’re just lifting them to a place.

 

Edit: I went back to watch the overall intro and then the backswing intro. At 2 min mark of the backswing intro Monte starts to talk about letting the body react to

the club face. That’s the preface to not worrying about the body rotation. 

 

If you were doing that part of the drill you skipped past the wrist set, then the flattening of the wrists.

The great thing about a video series like NTC or anything from an instructor is you have real visual reference to compare what you are doing to how it should look. It make self analyzing easier because you don’t have to guess if your doing it right. You can visually compare.

 

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

And further, this is exactly what an instructor would be able to tell me very quickly.

As I just mentioned if you were doing a proper comparison against the visuals you would be able to see that almost instantaneously 

Edited December 29, 2024 by GoGoErky

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

He is saying that because the arms to 7 creates the necessary rotation. As demonstrated in the photo posted.

 

You have misinterpreted what he’s saying and aren’t pushing your hands to 7, you’re just lifting them to a place.

I didn't pick up on exactly what he meant by "push," and he doesn't provide any other explanation.

 

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

If you were doing that part of the drill you skipped past the wrist set, then the flattening of the wrists.

I didn't skip the wrist set drill, I did that many times, until I got comfortable enough to go to the top with those movements blended. I had the 90° wrists at the top, but because I didn't get the push, I ended up in the same bad position with my left arm across my chest. 

 

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

The great thing about a video series like NTC or anything from an instructor is you have real visual reference to compare what you are doing to how it should look. It make self analyzing easier because you don’t have to guess if your doing it right. You can visually compare.

 

As I just mentioned if you were doing a proper comparison against the visuals you would be able to see that almost instantaneously 

It's hard to compare directly to Monte because he has a more upright posture. 

 

 

Maybe I'm still tilting forward too much. Should I try to get closer to his angle?

 

Doesn't the fact that he starts with his club hovering above the ground affect how it would look, too? I think he also has a higher camera angle. All these subtle things make it hard to go off visuals. 

 

When I edit Monte to be more tilted, maybe that's a more apt comparison? 

 

Anyway, I'll go back to the videos and try to watch more closely for unspoken aspects.

 

One other thing I didn't account for:

The push may actually need a club for my body to react properly (or some suitable substitute). There's not a weight out there exerting force through my arms.

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by RayPlan
Tilt comparison edit. Also, I remembered that a club's weight might actually be important here.

[wildcatfan9698]

Dude you could have started fixing your issues the first day of the thread by seeing a coach.  This type of online question/answer just isn't working for you.  These guys know how to help you and are giving you very sound advice, but you keep chasing new fixes and worrying about outcomes rather than doing the necessary work.  There are no shortcuts to fix your issues. See a coach.

[Nels55]

Maybe you could do this drill using a club and get your hips and body turned like Monte's is in the demo.  Keep doing that until you manage to post a video that you don't get ripped a new one for posting. 

 

Lol I never achieved much of anything without failing a bunch of times.  Keep beating on the door until it gives.

[RayPlan]

35 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Maybe you could do this drill using a club and get your hips and body turned like Monte's is in the demo.  Keep doing that until you manage to post a video that you don't get ripped a new one for posting. 

 

Lol I never achieved much of anything without failing a bunch of times.  Keep beating on the door until it gives.

Good point about the club. It makes sense that my body might not react if it doesn't have an actual weight out there to react to. Especially since it's an arm's length away.

 

Appreciate the words of encouragement.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I didn't pick up on exactly what he meant by "push," and he doesn't provide any other explanation.

Not sure what explanation you need for the word push. Your pushing your hands, he describes it with push your hands to 7 and then demonstrates.

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I didn't skip the wrist set drill, I did that many times, until I got comfortable enough to go to the top with those movements blended. I had the 90° wrists at the top, but because I didn't get the push, I ended up in the same bad position with my left arm across my chest. 

You have some forearm rotation whereas if you look at Monte in both the instruction video and the backswing a video he has very little forearm rotation.

 

so there’s probably a little bit of improper wrist set.

 

6 hours ago, RayPlan said:

I probably don't necessarily need a club for this.

I’m going to disagree with this for several reasons. You need to feel the weight of the club, you need to ensure your your grip is good everytime you touch the club, you need to be able

ti see where the club is through the drill to include ensuring proper wrist set and then flattening of the wrist and the main reason is the purpose of the drill is to have the body react to the club. 
 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

It's hard to compare directly to Monte because he has a more upright posture

You’re comparing what he’s doing not necessarily how he looks. Thing to look at are is the club parallel to the ground like we saw in previous videos of you trying the wrist set portion, or is it angled up similar to the video.

 

when you push your hands to 7, is the club in the right position relative to the clock, do you over rotate, under rotate or did you rotate properly from reaction to the club.

 

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Doesn't the fact that he starts with his club hovering above the ground affect how it would look, too?

Hovering has negligible effect on how it will look. 
 

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Maybe I'm still tilting forward too much. Should I try to get closer to his angle?

Have you been training the setup from

the Porzak video I linked previously?

 

but we already know you had no push of the hands and you just bent the elbow and lifted the club. Comparing a bad execution of the drill to Monte doing the drill isn’t a good comparison.

 

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

When I edit Monte to be more tilted, maybe that's a more apt comparison? 

 Not how I would look at it. Use a club, ensure your setup is proper for your body by drilling the setup video I linked. 
 

 

[GoGoErky]

Just now, RayPlan said:

Good point about the club. It makes sense that my body might not react if it doesn't have an actual weight out there to react to. Especially since it's an arm's length away.

 

Appreciate the words of encouragement.

If you push your hands properly the body will react to the push even without a club, but you should be doing the drill with a club as mentioned above. This isn’t necessarily a drill meant to be done with no club.