Hold a tee while hitting the ball?

[jobin]

Saw Mark Crossfield advise ams to grip a long tee peg between the left hand fingers while gripping the club. The pointy end of the peg corresponded to the club face direction and thus offered insight into what the club face was doing at any time.

 

Mark may be correct in his assessment of this 'tip', but is it legal to use this tip during play?  My meager knowledge of the arcane yields no certain answer.

 

Can you help?

[Colin L]

You are right to wonder about the legality of it.  Would you agree that the second bullet point of Rule 4.3a tells us  that it isn't allowed in making stroke?

Edited December 23, 2024 by Colin L

[Newby]

23 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Would you agree that the second bullet point of Rule 4.3a tells us  that it isn't allowed in making stroke?

I would.

[Colin L]

18 minutes ago, Newby said:

I would.

Of course you would - and without having to look it up. 😃   

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

Saw Mark Crossfield advise ams to grip a long tee peg between the left hand fingers while gripping the club. The pointy end of the peg corresponded to the club face direction and thus offered insight into what the club face was doing at any time.

 

Mark may be correct in his assessment of this 'tip', but is it legal to use this tip during play?  My meager knowledge of the arcane yields no certain answer.

 

Can you help?

 

I can help. It is not allowed.

[Colin L]

Dearie me, I was trying gently to guide Jobin to the applicable Rule and let him see for himself.

 

 

[antip]

Adding another angle of response to Jobin. The question asked about "during play". The prohibition relates to "making a stroke". That is, there would be no issue with a player doing this during a round for a practice swing or for a practice stroke (assuming the latter is permitted under 5.5b).

[davep043]

14 hours ago, antip said:

Adding another angle of response to Jobin. The question asked about "during play". The prohibition relates to "making a stroke". That is, there would be no issue with a player doing this during a round for a practice swing or for a practice stroke (assuming the latter is permitted under 5.5b).

You are not allowed to use training aids when making a practice swing, per 4.3a(6), but I don't think a tee is covered as a "training aid". I don't see a problem with what you suggest.

[antip]

8 hours ago, davep043 said:

You are not allowed to use training aids when making a practice swing, per 4.3a(6), but I don't think a tee is covered as a "training aid". I don't see a problem with what you suggest.

A tee is not a training aid. That is official.

[Newby]

27 minutes ago, antip said:

A tee is not a training aid. That is official.

Although it is not a training aide it is still equipment and would therefore fall foul of 4.3a.

 

4.3a. Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment

A player may use equipment to help them play during a round, except that a player must not create a potential advantage by:

• Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game, or

• Using equipment (including a club or a ball) in an abnormal way in making a stroke. “Abnormal way” means a way that is fundamentally different than its intended use and is not normally recognized as part of playing the game.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Newby

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Although it is not a training aide it is still equipment and would therefore fall foul of 4.3a.

 

4.3a. Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment

A player may use equipment to help them play during a round, except that a player must not create a potential advantage by:

• Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game, or

• Using equipment (including a club or a ball) in an abnormal way in making a stroke. “Abnormal way” means a way that is fundamentally different than its intended use and is not normally recognized as part of playing the game.

I think what was trying to be said is that you could not use the tee during an actual stroke (second bullet), but you could indeed take a few practice swings between shots using that tee…

Edited December 26, 2024 by Schulzmc

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I think what was trying to be said is that you could not use the tee during an actual stroke (second bullet), but you could indeed take a few practice swings between shots using that tee…

Thats exactly the way I understood the question.  You may make a practice swing with a non-conforming club, with your feet straddling the line of play, etc. I don't see using a tee as violating the first bullet point in the rules, and if its not done while making a stroke, it definitely doesn't violate the second.

[antip]

Original question was about 'during play'. Colin's original answer correctly noted the second bullet point of 4.3a guides the answer. I fleshed out that it can be done 'during play' for either a practice swing or a legal practice stroke without penalty consequences either. 

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Although it is not a training aide it is still equipment and would therefore fall foul of 4.3a.

 

4.3a. Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment

A player may use equipment to help them play during a round, except that a player must not create a potential advantage by:

• Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game, or

• Using equipment (including a club or a ball) in an abnormal way in making a stroke. “Abnormal way” means a way that is fundamentally different than its intended use and is not normally recognized as part of playing the game.

The first bullet point of 4.3a has no relevance here. That is an official ruling. 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, antip said:

 

The first bullet point of 4.3a has no relevance here. That is an official ruling. 

Not disputing it but what does that ruling say exactly and where does it appear?

[antip]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Not disputing it but what does that ruling say exactly and where does it appear?

It was an extensive discussion by email and the response was covered by "do not publish on the internet" type of words, but the principles were clear and are outlined below.

 

The issues discussed were whether a regular piece of golfing equipment, eg, towel, glove, tee, when used in an unusual way to assist a player with their swing, breached 4.3. Examples were putting a glove or towel between lead arm and body for a practice swing, or putting a tee in the ground and player taking practice swings seeking to just brush the tee. The answer was the second bullet point of 4.3a applies - it cannot be used for making a stroke during a round but there is no issue with use other than making a stroke. This contrasts with equipment that is designed (like a training aid) to artificially eliminate or reduce the need for skill or judgment in playing golf - use of such equipment ANYTIME during a round (not just to make a stroke) breaches 4.3.

 

PS This is the stuff of old D14-3/6 and D14-3/6.5. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by antip
PS added

[limegreengent]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

Thats exactly the way I understood the question.  You may make a practice swing with a non-conforming club, with your feet straddling the line of play, etc. I don't see using a tee as violating the first bullet point in the rules, and if its not done while making a stroke, it definitely doesn't violate the second.

 

Not totally true David  - what about the wording of 4.3a(6) which prohibits the use of any golf training or swing aid or a Non - conforming club  —that in any way creates a potential advantage,……………..

 

The  exemption from penalty for only carrying but not using  a non conforming club relates to 4.1a.not 4.3.

Edited December 26, 2024 by limegreengent

[Newby]

1 hour ago, antip said:

It was an extensive discussion by email and the response was covered by "do not publish on the internet" type of words, but the principles were clear and are outlined below.

 

The issues discussed were whether a regular piece of golfing equipment, eg, towel, glove, tee, when used in an unusual way to assist a player with their swing, breached 4.3. Examples were putting a glove or towel between lead arm and body for a practice swing, or putting a tee in the ground and player taking practice swings seeking to just brush the tee. The answer was the second bullet point of 4.3a applies - it cannot be used for making a stroke during a round but there is no issue with use other than making a stroke. This contrasts with equipment that is designed (like a training aid) to artificially eliminate or reduce the need for skill or judgment in playing golf - use of such equipment ANYTIME during a round (not just to make a stroke) breaches 4.3.

 

PS This is the stuff of old D14-3/6 and D14-3/6.5. 

Thanks

[Schulzmc]

Then to summarize and make sure I have this right:

 

1. On the range before the round begins I can use a designed training aid (Orange Whip, club with a formed grip, etc.) but once the round begins I cannot use these at all, even for a practice swing.

2. During the round I can use a tee as the OP suggested, or hold a towel under my arm, etc. for practice swings only.

3. For an actual stroke I cannot use other equipment to aid the swing (as in #2).

 

 

[davep043]

3 hours ago, limegreengent said:

 

Not totally true David  - what about the wording of 4.3a(6) which prohibits the use of any golf training or swing aid or a Non - conforming club  —that in any way creates a potential advantage,……………..

 

The  exemption from penalty for only carrying but not using  a non conforming club relates to 4.1a.not 4.3.

 I'm not so sure that making a practice swing with a non-conforming club creates a potential advantage, as compared to making a practice swing with any other club.  I'm making a list of questions to ask at the January USGA workshop, I'll add this to my list.

Edited December 26, 2024 by davep043

[Colin L]

21 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 I'm not so sure that making a practice swing with a non-conforming club creates a potential advantage, as compared to making a practice swing with any other club.  I'm making a list of questions to ask at the January USGA workshop, I'll add this to my list.

I'd suggest  the sole reason for any practice swing is to help make a stroke which is fine, as everyone can use any of their own conforming clubs to do the same.   The player who uses a non-conforming club for a practice swing  is creating for himself  a potential advantage because it has some characteristic, possibly a unique characteristic that will help him more than is available to other players.  

Edited December 26, 2024 by Colin L

[iacas]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

 I'm not so sure that making a practice swing with a non-conforming club creates a potential advantage, as compared to making a practice swing with any other club.  I'm making a list of questions to ask at the January USGA workshop, I'll add this to my list.

I don’t think there’s any need to ask them as I think this has been ruled on several times.

[antip]

7 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

Then to summarize and make sure I have this right:

 

1. On the range before the round begins I can use a designed training aid (Orange Whip, club with a formed grip, etc.) but once the round begins I cannot use these at all, even for a practice swing.

2. During the round I can use a tee as the OP suggested, or hold a towel under my arm, etc. for practice swings only.

3. For an actual stroke I cannot use other equipment to aid the swing (as in #2).

 

 

For 2: or for a (legal) practice stroke (see 5.5b).

 

[jdl]

🤣

[Hawkeye77]

On 12/26/2024 at 9:47 AM, Colin L said:

I'd suggest  the sole reason for any practice swing is to help make a stroke which is fine, as everyone can use any of their own conforming clubs to do the same.   The player who uses a non-conforming club for a practice swing  is creating for himself  a potential advantage because it has some characteristic, possibly a unique characteristic that will help him more than is available to other players.  

Looks well discussed all the way around and from all angles, would just add that advantage or potential advantage may or may not relate to the basis for the rule but isn't a consideration in determining how to apply it?  And if that isn't correct, I assume I'll be educated, and welcome, shortly . . .

[Pepperturbo]

On 12/23/2024 at 5:12 AM, jobin said:

Saw Mark Crossfield advise ams to grip a long tee peg between the left hand fingers while gripping the club. The pointy end of the peg corresponded to the club face direction and thus offered insight into what the club face was doing at any time.

 

Mark may be correct in his assessment of this 'tip', but is it legal to use this tip during play?  My meager knowledge of the arcane yields no certain answer.

 

Can you help?

Sounds like a crutch, doesn't even sound legit.

[Mr. Bean]

On 12/26/2024 at 5:27 PM, davep043 said:

 I'm not so sure that making a practice swing with a non-conforming club creates a potential advantage, as compared to making a practice swing with any other club.  I'm making a list of questions to ask at the January USGA workshop, I'll add this to my list.

 

Please do, as at least Iacas and Colin seem to have opposite views on the matter.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Please do, as at least Iacas and Colin seem to have opposite views on the matter.

In general, I trust both gentlemen in these kinds of matters.  The more I think of it, the less difference I see between a "training aid" and a "non-conforming club", indeed many training aids are simply clubs which don't conform to the Rules.  An example is the club mentioned earlier, a standard club with a molded grip to assist with hand placement.  

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

In general, I trust both gentlemen in these kinds of matters.  The more I think of it, the less difference I see between a "training aid" and a "non-conforming club", indeed many training aids are simply clubs which don't conform to the Rules.  An example is the club mentioned earlier, a standard club with a molded grip to assist with hand placement.  

 

All training aids are non-conforming as clubs but not all non-conforming clubs are training aids. A huge difference, from my pow.

 

I find it very hard to generally equal those two from the Rules perspective, so I am eager to hear what you get from the instructors.

[limegreengent]

Guys— isn’t it better to have black and white rules that everyone understands instead of going down  “ rabbit holes “ to try to investigate or question what benefits a non conforming club may or may not have,

 The rules say do not use this type of club which can which creates a potential advantage.

For Pete’s sake - what the hell is the player doing by even having one in his bag!,😡😡

[GoGoErky]

5 minutes ago, limegreengent said:

Guys— isn’t it better to have black and white rules that everyone understands instead of going down  “ rabbit holes “ to try to investigate or question what benefits a non conforming club may or may not have,

 The rules say do not use this type of club which can which creates a potential advantage.

For Pete’s sake - what the hell is the player doing by even having one in his bag!,😡😡

Some people don’t care to play by the rules or not all of them. They are out for the social aspect of golf or to just play and not worry. There is nothing wrong or illegal with a non conforming club if you aren’t playing by the rules to start with