Hold a tee while hitting the ball?

[antip]

15 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Some people don’t care to play by the rules or not all of them. They are out for the social aspect of golf or to just play and not worry. There is nothing wrong or illegal with a non conforming club if you aren’t playing by the rules to start with 

True, but if you aren't interested in what the rules require there's little point in engaging in a rules discussion.

[GoGoErky]

29 minutes ago, antip said:

True, but if you aren't interested in what the rules require there's little point in engaging in a rules discussion.

Te reply was to a generic question about why someone would have a non conforming club in the bag and nothing to do with anyone engaging in a rules discussion who’s not looking to follow the rules 

[davep043]

16 hours ago, limegreengent said:

Guys— isn’t it better to have black and white rules that everyone understands instead of going down  “ rabbit holes “ to try to investigate or question what benefits a non conforming club may or may not have,

 The rules say do not use this type of club which can which creates a potential advantage.

For Pete’s sake - what the hell is the player doing by even having one in his bag!,😡😡

It is the nature of rules of any kind to draw a line between what is acceptable and what is not.  In many cases, this isn't a black v. white situation, but instead draws a line somewhere along a spectrum of grays.  In this particular case we have a rule that says:

"a player must not create a potential advantage by:

Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game"

The Rules are very clear, you may carry a non-conforming club in your bag, and it counts as one of the 14 clubs you are allowed to carry, but you may NOT use a non-conforming club to make a Stroke.  That's all black and white.  There's additional clarification that says:

"Not Allowed.

Using any type of golf training or swing aid (such as an alignment rod or a weighted headcover or “donut”) or a non-conforming club in any way that creates a potential advantage by helping the player in preparing for or making a stroke (such as help with swing plane, grip, alignment, ball position or posture)."

Again, the rule as written talks about a Player gaining a potential advantage.  I think its a very reasonable discussion as to whether making a practice swing with a non-conforming club gives a player a potential advantage.

 

A real-life scenario, I was officiating at a high-school tournament, and one player was DQ for using a driver that had the "launch monitor stickers" on its clubface.  Those "external attachments" on the clubface make the club non-conforming, the DQ was required because he made a stroke with a non-conforming club.  But what if he hadn't made a stroke with that club at all, but had made a few practice swings?  Did that create a potential advantage?  

 

[Newby]

41 minutes ago, davep043 said:

"..... helping the player in preparing for ..."

 

 

I don't think enough attention is paid to these words.

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

I don't think enough attention is paid to these words.

Yeah, but it all gets back to the "potential advantage" which is at the root of the rule.  

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, but it all gets back to the "potential advantage" which is at the root of the rule.  

I don't think it is up to the referee on site to determine "potential advantage".  Imo, the Rule does that already, it's not a grey area.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

I don't think it is up to the referee on site to determine "potential advantage".  Imo, the Rule does that already, it's not a grey area.

 

Care to specify what kind of potential advantage a player may get by taking a practice swing with ANY KIND OF non-conforming club?

Edited January 9 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Care to specify what kind of potential advantage a player may get by taking a practice swing with ANY KIND OF non-conforming club?

Any potential advantage gained is contrary to the Rules. 

Suppose I have an iron with a hinge in the shaft - it's obviously non-conforming.  I take a practice swing with it and note that it "breaks" at the top of the swing due to my wrists being in the wrong position.  Have I gained a potential advantage due to that practice swing with that non-conforming club? (rhetorical question).  Of course I have.

Edited January 9 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

23 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Any potential advantage gained is contrary to the Rules. 

Suppose I have an iron with a hinge in the shaft - it's obviously non-conforming.  I take a practice swing with it and note that it "breaks" at the top of the swing due to my wrists being in the wrong position.  Have I gained a potential advantage due to that practice swing with that non-conforming club? (rhetorical question).  Of course I have.

 

Now, there is the crux.

 

If every non-conforming club would give a player advantage the Rule would have been written to say so, but it has not. The Rule says "potential" and that is far from b&w but it is for the referee / committee to determine.

 

I find this to be a real dilemma from the Rules pow.

 

Edited January 9 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now, there is the crux.

 

If every non-conforming club would give a player advantage the Rule would have been written to say so, but it has not. The Rule says "potential" and that is far from b&w but it is for the referee / committee to determine.

 

I find this to be a real dilemma from the Rules pow.

 

The Rule is very broad - "using a non-conforming club in any way that creates a potential advantage".  It even gives some examples "such as....."

Imo, there would be very limited situations where the player would not be in breach, to be evaluated by the Rules official(s) on site.

[Hawkeye77]

On 1/7/2025 at 12:42 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Looks well discussed all the way around and from all angles, would just add that advantage or potential advantage may or may not relate to the basis for the rule but isn't a consideration in determining how to apply it?  And if that isn't correct, I assume I'll be educated, and welcome, shortly . . .

LOL, just quoting myself because the answer, "yes, 'potential advantage' is part of one of the applicable rules" was a few up from my post - it's hard work reading all the posts.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

The Rule is very broad - "using a non-conforming club in any way that creates a potential advantage".  It even gives some examples "such as....." Imo, there would be very limited situations where the player would not be in breach, to be evaluated by the Rules official(s) on site.

 

Right. If you take a non-conforming club out of your bag and realize "oops, I blindly grabbed the wrong one" and put it right back, that didn't create a potential advantage. If you swing a non-conforming heavy club with a molded grip even once, that has the potential to create an advantage, and you're in breach.

 

I feel like the line is pretty clear. Sure, there may be an edge case or two, but it's not a wide grey area where officials are looking to determine whether there was an advantage gained. It's potential advantage, and that's broad.

 

If a player uses a non-conforming club to confirm that he dropped within a club length… not a potential advantage gained (as long as it's not a non-conforming club because it doubles as a 15' telescoping ball retriever 😄).

 

P.S. Most tournament golfers just don't carry a non-conforming club. This Rule isn't coming into play all that often.

[Colin L]

On 1/8/2025 at 5:55 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

Please do, as at least Iacas and Colin seem to have opposite views on the matter.

I'm not sure of that.  All Erik said was that the matter had been ruled on several time without, I think, saying what the ruling was.  Perhaps I missed something.

 

I don't really have any doubt about this one.  Ask why every single practice swing is made.  Is the answer not to prepare for the next stroke whether by loosening up, reminding the muscle memory of the weight and balance of the particular club, rehearsing whatever needs to be done to produce a draw, a fade, a floater, a stinger... whatever?  It can have no other purpose than to prepare for the stroke.  Any practice swing with a non-conforming club inescapably has the same purpose and therefore creates a potential advantage.

 

At least that's what I'd tell you if I caught you at it. 😃

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

I'm not sure of that.  All Erik said was that the matter had been ruled on several time without, I think, saying what the ruling was.  Perhaps I missed something.

 

I don't really have any doubt about this one.  Ask why every single practice swing is made.  Is the answer not to prepare for the next stroke whether by loosening up, reminding the muscle memory of the weight and balance of the particular club, rehearsing whatever needs to be done to produce a draw, a fade, a floater, a stinger... whatever?  It can have no other purpose than to prepare for the stroke.  Any practice swing with a non-conforming club inescapably has the same purpose and therefore creates a potential advantage.

 

At least that's what I'd tell you if I caught you at it. 😃

 

They've consistently ruled that it's a breach, yes, because as I said in the post just above… unless you take it out of the bag and say "oops, wrong club" and put it right back, you've likely created a potential advantage. "Using" it in "any way" tends to do that, in as much as "taking it out and immediately putting it back in" isn't really even "using" the club. Nor would using it to measure (seeing as how you technically don't even have to measure, you just have to drop in an area that's the right size/shape).

 

Use of non-conforming equipment is a pretty solid line with very little grey.

[antip]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Care to specify what kind of potential advantage a player may get by taking a practice swing with ANY KIND OF non-conforming club?

I think the onus of proof is the opposite in this case. I can't think of any possible reason to take a golf practice swing during a round other than to help in making a possible future stroke.   

[Mr. Bean]

Double post

Edited January 10 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, antip said:

I think the onus of proof is the opposite in this case. I can't think of any possible reason to take a golf practice swing during a round other than to help in making a possible future stroke.   

 

Such cases would certainly be rare as I cannot really see why a person would carry a non-conforming club in their set. 

 

Rule says "potential advantage" but compared to what? If I by mistake have two 7-irons in my bag and one of those has a bent shaft (damaged before the round) and I make a practice swing with that damaged club, what kind of advantage would I get?

 

All I am saying is that it would be much simpler if the Rule took a firm stand on the issue of using a non-confoming device during a round.

[Schulzmc]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I cannot really see why a person would carry a non-conforming club in their set. 

I have a weighted iron in my bag that I use to warm up before the round. It never comes out of my bag once the round starts, but I don't see the need to take it to the locker room or my car before the round begins. 

[Colin L]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

They've consistently ruled that it's a breach, yes, because as I said in the post just above… unless you take it out of the bag and say "oops, wrong club" and put it right back, you've likely created a potential advantage. "Using" it in "any way" tends to do that, in as much as "taking it out and immediately putting it back in" isn't really even "using" the club. Nor would using it to measure (seeing as how you technically don't even have to measure, you just have to drop in an area that's the right size/shape).

 

Use of non-conforming equipment is a pretty solid line with very little grey.

I must have been writing my response at the same time as you posted.  We are of the same mind, then.   That's good.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

I have a weighted iron in my bag that I use to warm up before the round. It never comes out of my bag once the round starts, but I don't see the need to take it to the locker room or my car before the round begins. 

Including that weighted iron, how many clubs are in your bag during your round?

[Schulzmc]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Including that weighted iron, how many clubs are in your bag during your round?

13 - I only use 12 actual clubs. But if I had fourteen regular clubs would having it in the bag be a problem? It is obviously a training aid - shorter than a regular club and with a formed grip.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

13 - I only use 12 actual clubs. But if I had fourteen regular clubs would having it in the bag be a problem? It is obviously a training aid - shorter than a regular club and with a formed grip.

 

Can you hit a ball with that thing?

[antip]

4 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

13 - I only use 12 actual clubs. But if I had fourteen regular clubs would having it in the bag be a problem? It is obviously a training aid - shorter than a regular club and with a formed grip.

Yes, carrying a non-conforming club plus 14 others is a breach of 4.1b(1). See the last 2 bullet points of 4.1a(3). This issue does not arise for a training aid which is not a club. 

[Schulzmc]

21 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Can you hit a ball with that thing?

 

Yeah - even though it is pretty short I imagine I could hit a ball with it.

 

17 hours ago, antip said:

Yes, carrying a non-conforming club plus 14 others is a breach of 4.1b(1). See the last 2 bullet points of 4.1a(3). This issue does not arise for a training aid which is not a club. 

 

So if I ever did fill out my set to 14 clubs, I could use 4.1c(2) and (1) and declare the club out of play to my playing partners. Maybe even remove it from my bag and put it in the basket of the cart?

 

EDIT: I started a new thread to explore some aspects of this further…

Edited January 11 by Schulzmc

[antip]

6 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

 

Yeah - even though it is pretty short I imagine I could hit a ball with it.

 

 

So if I ever did fill out my set to 14 clubs, I could use 4.1c(2) and (1) and declare the club out of play to my playing partners. Maybe even remove it from my bag and put it in the basket of the cart?

 

EDIT: I started a new thread to explore some aspects of this further…

Short answer is that is not a general entitlement, we can take up in the other thread.

[Schulzmc]

I now understand I cannot intentionally show up at the first tee with 15 clubs and declare one out of play. That option only exists if it is an accidental occurrence.

 

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I now understand I cannot intentionally show up at the first tee with 15 clubs and declare one out of play. That option only exists if it is an accidental occurrence.

 

That's how I understand the Rule.