Good Practice (Often Boring Practice)

[hanginnwangin]

On 12/23/2024 at 7:54 PM, iacas said:

Golfers/students watching me doing my technique practice at my indoor academy will often notice:

 

1. I hit about one ball every 45-60 seconds. I rarely hit more than three balls without taking a small break (enough to walk out and collect them), glance at a text, and get back to it.
2. I often practice with a 6I only (though I'll occasionally hit an 8, or a 4).
3. I hit my 6I between 100 and 150 yards. Sometimes out to 160.
4. I don't really care about contact. I've had practice sessions where half of my shots are shanks. It's fine.
5. I monitor one or two launch monitor data points at a time. Right now, it's just path, even though I'm not really working on path (I just don't want it to get too out of whack).
6. I never have a "breakthrough." *
7. I work on the same thing for weeks or, more frequently, months.
8. I have several things (besides the LM) that provide feedback. A PVC pipe at my feet. Mirrors. A HackMotion. Whatever.
9. I am constantly monitoring the little things. Is my right foot square or turned out 5°? How's my grip? Distance from the ball? Etc.
10. I record myself on video.

 

To elaborate on each:

 

1. Learning happens in the breaks between. When you can absorb. Process.
2. Because why not? It keeps things simpler, and if I'm not bored by doing it, because of #6 and #7… so what? Plus, it's all stickered up for the QuadMAX.
3. I know how far I hit my 6I (about 183). I don't need to constantly prove it, and practicing at full speed is not conducive to making changes.
4. I'm not working on contact. If you interrupt me in the middle of a practice session and say "hit one good," I'll do that. I tend to hit it out of the toe side, so when I'm exaggerating something, I often move it a bit too far into the heel.
5. I'm not making "golf swings" per se, I'm making a series of movements for the purpose of "playing around with" the piece I'm working on.
6. More on this below. *
7. More on this below. *
8. If you're not practicing with feedback, you're just exercising. And probably not really doing that well, either. 😄 
9. Great players do the ordinary things extraordinarily well. And consistently. I'm not great (PGA Tour), but I can do the ordinary things well.
10. Feel ain't real. And sometimes, a mirror isn't quite enough, since you have to be looking at it while you "feel" and see what it produces.

 

* I have this sign (and a few others) in my academy:

 

 

I don't have breakthroughs. Improving at golf is, at this point, about putting in the work. About taking care of the details and doing what I need to do. I have a loosely defined plan (I may spend more or slightly less time than planned — I don't want to hard-code timelines in, though I'm also in no rush).

 

———————

 

Why am I posting this? Because I see posts by others where they "have a breakthrough" or they "think they've got it" or they "struck the ball phenomenally well" that session. Who cares? The point of technique practice is to change the technique. To improve it. It's not to flush it. That'll come… if you're working on the right things in the right way.

 

Go slow. Play around in the "space" of your improvement. Give it time. Be patient and disciplined. Don't worry about results. Trust.

 

Good practice is often boring practice. It's not exciting. It's about putting in the reps.

Great post! This was pretty satisfying to read because I'm doing mostly everything you listed on here, so it means I am doing things correctly. And I will tell you, there are definitely days where I really, really, really don't want to do this s***. But I do anyway.

[slytown]

8.

 

Feedback is huge. So many folks I see on the range without a partner, a camera, or a coach *working on things.*

 

I don't believe the swing changes are always long term. You can show someone proper movement in a swing or two if they are willing. Problem is most are not willing.

[GoGoErky]

13 minutes ago, slytown said:

8.

 

Feedback is huge. So many folks I see on the range without a partner, a camera, or a coach *working on things.*

 

I don't believe the swing changes are always long term. You can show someone proper movement in a swing or two if they are willing. Problem is most are not willing.

Showing them and gettin them to do it over and over after 1-2 swings is hard. Swing changes are long term because they require a motor pattern change. Changing motor patterns requires time. A basic motor pattern change takes 8-12 weeks to get it to start to become natural. It takes in the range of 1000-3000 reps of a movement to master that movement.

 

If it was possible to make a change in 1-2 swings we would see that with almost every video posted in the section. Even good players can’t make a change that quick 

[Rbsiedsc]

Did this again today with feels in my house hitting rolled up socks. Yes it’s boring but sticking to it to see the gains come March. 

[hanginnwangin]

On 12/24/2024 at 3:21 PM, iacas said:

 

I play while doing technique work, and my contact remains fine. I think you misunderstood.

 

 

Can you expand on what you mean by this? Do you mean that you, for example, play a round on a simulator while focusing on your technique? Meaning you will hit one shot every minute or so and just use the six iron for every shot to get to the hole? Or do you switch clubs and focus on technique, while taking into account since you are working on technique that your six iron will only be going like 125 with the exaggerated movements. 

[RayPlan]

I'll admit to misunderstanding earlier in the thread, and I will try to implement these ideas into my training/practice.

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, hanginnwangin said:

Can you expand on what you mean by this? Do you mean that you, for example, play a round on a simulator while focusing on your technique? Meaning you will hit one shot every minute or so and just use the six iron for every shot to get to the hole? Or do you switch clubs and focus on technique, while taking into account since you are working on technique that your six iron will only be going like 125 with the exaggerated movements. 

I think @iacas means he continues to play rounds of golf while adhering to his practice regimen and his contact remains unaffected. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It did make me ask as question while thinking on the “ shank” comments. Why have a ball there at all? Is it just the need of having resistance at the bottom?  Or?

 

I can't run half a mile on a treadmill without getting bored. I watched a kid practice his backswing in Florida once for 2.5 hours. Never hit a ball. Had mirrors, a video camera, etc. I couldn't do that. I have to eventually chip a ball out there, even if it's just to "reset" things. Make me start over. Ball position, everything.

 

Practicing properly can be boring, because you're not hitting shots, but even though I'm working on the backswing… I'd be TOO bored if I just worked on the backswing and never actually hit something, even at a slower speed.

 

I'll say to students "let's make a rehearsal backswing here" and it's odd how many push the ball away. I say "no, no, with a ball there. Makes it more 'real' to you." You're gonna have to do it with the ball there, so if you're just making a backswing… why not have the ball there? Also, sometimes I'll say "okay now hit it."

 

But basically:

• It makes sure I'm still somewhat aware of the clubface, the AoA, etc.
• It confirms to me that even though what I'm doing can feel weird, it still "works."

 

I/me can be "the student" too.

 

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

are you in a constant place of change? Meaning do you get to a place where you aren’t making a change? No judgement either way. I’m just not a guy who’s constantly looking to change what I do. I’m in a constant thought of maintenance.

 

I'm constantly working on something. Sometimes it's closer to "maintenance" but "maintenance" is just a shade of grey from "change." Sometimes it's more focused work.

But like I said above, I can always just "hit a shot" with one swing thought. Sometimes it's the same/similar to what I'm working on, sometimes it's not.

 

2 hours ago, hanginnwangin said:

Can you expand on what you mean by this? Do you mean that you, for example, play a round on a simulator while focusing on your technique?

 

I almost never play a round on a simulator. I hit almost all of my shots, when practicing, on the "range" or occasionally on-course practice just so I have some more feedback. I often don't care, but if I want to take a glance, it's there. Like I said I monitor one or two things, typically.

 

I meant up above that I can go from practicing for an hour indoors at my academy to "playing golf." I don't ever really find myself "between patterns" because I'm pretty good, so I'm always just able to do what I do a little bit better or a little bit worse. When I work on my next piece, I'll have to play with a slightly more open face at setup as exaggerating it will send my path a little farther out than I'll end up playing with, but… that's about it.

 

Occasionally a student who wants to play while working on something will have to play a "different" shot in the middle. They can get caught between patterns. If they were a pull-slicer, and we change the face a bit, they might have to play some bigger pulls that don't cut as much at first. Something like that.

But, again, I can "just play" even when I'm right in the middle of working on things.

 

2 hours ago, hanginnwangin said:

Meaning you will hit one shot every minute or so and just use the six iron for every shot to get to the hole? Or do you switch clubs and focus on technique, while taking into account since you are working on technique that your six iron will only be going like 125 with the exaggerated movements. 

 

I almost never do that. That'd require me to care what the ball is doing, and be in breach of #4. I'm trying to change the movement pattern, trusting that the ball flight changes will be there (and they are).

 

Occasionally I practice "on the course" (on the sim), but I don't care what the ball is doing. I'm still just looking at the one or two data points I want to see.

 

For example, one time:

 

 

I was practicing "on the course" and happened to hole out. I hit a lot of balls that day short, right in the water, deep left into the bunkers… it didn't matter. All I was trying to do was watch the path to stay slightly right and to keep the AoA negative. Sometimes I don't even care much about one of those things.

 

Sometimes the range gets more boring, and sometimes you can hole out for albatross by setting GSPro to practice "on the course." Repeatedly hitting the same shot.

 

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I think @iacas means he continues to play rounds of golf while adhering to his practice regimen and his contact remains unaffected. 

 

Yes. I can separate out "practice mode" and "play mode."

Edited December 26, 2024 by iacas

[hanginnwangin]

36 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I think @iacas means he continues to play rounds of golf while adhering to his practice regimen and his contact remains unaffected. 

 

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

 

 

I was practicing "on the course" and happened to hole out. I hit a lot of balls that day short, right in the water, deep left into the bunkers… it didn't matter. All I was trying to do was watch the path to stay slightly right and to keep the AoA negative. Sometimes I don't even care much about one of those things.

 

Sometimes the range gets more boring, and sometimes you can hole out for albatross by setting GSPro to practice "on the course." Repeatedly hitting the same shot.

 

 

Yes. I can separate out "practice mode" and "play mode."

Gotcha, that makes sense. I don't do what I described in my previous post at all. But was just curious what you meant by that.

 

Thanks for explaining. 

 

My daily practice regimens consist of pretty much exactly what your first post stated in this thread. However, when I do go play, I just focus on one swing thought that isn't complex (such as a good turn) and just let my body take over and play the game. My thought is that if I put in enough technical work in slow motion and with feedback during practice, when I actually get on the course to swing and just play golf, eventually, my body over time will get into the positions that I have been doing in slow motion during practice and be reflected on the course. It may take a long time to get there, but slowly over time the rehearsals from practice will become more of a thing. Is that kind of the idea? 

Edited December 26, 2024 by hanginnwangin

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

I was practicing "on the course" and happened to hole out. I hit a lot of balls that day short, right in the water, deep left into the bunkers… it didn't matter. All I was trying to do was watch the path to stay slightly right and to keep the AoA negative. Sometimes I don't even care much about one of those things.

 

To be clear, I was monitoring those two things only… but the bulk of my focus was on the downswing thing I was trying to do. I'd do some slower, some faster. I'd exaggerate some more or less. I was doing what I call "playing around in that space." Seeing what kinds of feels (more amounts and sequencing than actually different feels) produced what kinds of "reals."

 

I just made the scenery of my "range" that day the 13th at Augu… errrr… "Georgia Golf Club."

[KD1]

On 12/23/2024 at 9:54 PM, iacas said:

1. I hit about one ball every 45-60 seconds. I rarely hit more than three balls without taking a small break (enough to walk out and collect them), glance at a text, and get back to it.

...

1. Learning happens in the breaks between. When you can absorb. Process.

...

 

Good practice is often boring practice. It's not exciting. It's about putting in the reps.

 

I have no doubt that your guidelines that you've posted produce awesome results. But I do wonder if the philosophy/mindset behind point #1 is... optimal? And the sole reason that I wonder is based on the information I've gleaned from this episode of the Dr Huberman podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0IBzCjEPk

 

So what I find interesting, based on my understanding of that episode which I last listened to maybe a year ago, is that Huberman might say if the goal is to rewire the 'central pattern generators'  you've got to cram as much repetition in per unit of time as you can and then absorb and process during sleep (dude is REALLY big on sleep). To be clear that is 100% focus on one thing and making sure you're getting that one thing right, your points 5, 8, and 10.

 

Thoughts? Have you listed to that? I know the episode has been mentioned in the forums a few times before.

Edited December 26, 2024 by KD1

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

So what I find interesting, based on my understanding of that episode which I last listened to maybe a year ago, is that Huberman might say if the goal is to rewire the 'central pattern generators'  you've got to cram as much repetition in per unit of time as you can and then absorb and process during sleep (dude is REALLY big on sleep).

 

I hit one ball every minute or so, but that doesn't mean I'm doing one rehearsal a minute. I'm doing five, six, seven… even when they're downswing things. (Most golfers should spend more time on setup, backswing, transition.)

 

The small breaks I take allow me to maintain my focus and keep up my energy and discipline.

 

There are plenty of other studies that show you can "process" in the breaks between even when you're awake. Sleep is not required for processing, or even necessarily for optimal processing.

[NosajNeelik]

14 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Bubba is definitely an outlier.  That's why I mentioned him in the earlier post.  The majority of tournament pros have swing coaches and do drills when necessary.  The steps outlined by @iacas seem sound to me.  I think that his exact process may be somewhat unique but overall it seems like a lot of good stuff. 

 

Did you use that process when you learned the game?

No but I’m using it now to good success. Changing a spinning shoulder move from the top after 30 years isnt easy and I hate video becoase it makes me barf BUT I’ve been dealing with that and going super slow drilling and it’s seriously working great after only a small bit (at least the video looks better). Taking video while drilling g is the best thing for me it seems. I can get in positions because I know what it feels like to look right 

Edited December 26, 2024 by NosajNeelik

[NosajNeelik]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Great post.
 

It did make me ask as question while thinking on the “ shank” comments. Why have a ball there at all ?  Is it just the need of having resistance at the bottom ?  Or? 
 

are you in a constant place  of change ?  Meaning do you get to a place where you aren’t making a change ?   No judgement either way.  I’m just not a guy who’s constantly looking to change what I do.  I’m in a constant thought of maintenance.  
 

any chance you’d post that video that keeps getting mentioned ?  

For me I can literally make a perfect swing with no ball but when a ball is there it’s not. So it’s been helpful even just doing backswings to have a ball there at address to get my mind doing it correctly 

[gentles]

2 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

For me I can literally make a perfect swing with no ball but when a ball is there it’s not. So it’s been helpful even just doing backswings to have a ball there at address to get my mind doing it correctly 

i can almost guarantee that your face is wide open on the practice swing with no ball in place. Another reason to at least have a ball there some of the time 

[NosajNeelik]

2 minutes ago, gentles said:

i can almost guarantee that your face is wide open on the practice swing with no ball in place. Another reason to at least have a ball there some of the time 

It’s not because I’ve been videoing it just to see if I can actually make the right moves haha. But then I put a ball there and it’s like a different backswing even when not trying to hit it. But it’s getting better 🙂

[betarhoalphadelta]

So a question for @iacas and the other instructors in the thread...

 

Is there any benefit to practice when it comes down to just getting reps in? I.e. for those of us who don't practice enough, who play rounds every 2 weeks or so, who don't hit enough balls overall, etc. To go to the range, work mostly with a mid-iron where you're expressly trying to make good contact, hit good shots, and trying to hit targets? And then maybe to include some work with driver, which you hit often on the course, and then clubs that you rarely hit on the course (for me things like my 3 utility or 4 hybrid) to get more comfortable with them?

 

Is this just pointless? Or is there some value here?

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

20 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So a question for @iacas and the other instructors in the thread...

 

Is there any benefit to practice when it comes down to just getting reps in? I.e. for those of us who don't practice enough, who play rounds every 2 weeks or so, who don't hit enough balls overall, etc. To go to the range, work mostly with a mid-iron where you're expressly trying to make good contact, hit good shots, and trying to hit targets? And then maybe to include some work with driver, which you hit often on the course, and then clubs that you rarely hit on the course (for me things like my 3 utility or 4 hybrid) to get more comfortable with them?

 

Is this just pointless? Or is there some value here?

 

 

Good question.  Curious to this as well.

 

Im not an instructor and will wait to share my personal annecdotes on no practice/range work, work as you suggested above, and work as iacas suggested till we here from some instructors.

[gentles]

36 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

It’s not because I’ve been videoing it just to see if I can actually make the right moves haha. But then I put a ball there and it’s like a different backswing even when not trying to hit it. But it’s getting better 🙂

that’s your body subconsciously trying to square up the clubface to hit the ball. Take a screenshot of the club at P6 position down the line and see

[gentles]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

Good question.  Curious to this as well.

 

Im not an instructor and will wait to share my personal annecdotes on no practice/range work, work as you suggested above, and work as iacas suggested till we here from some instructors.

im in this boat as well - I play once a week if im very lucky and if everything likes up I might get an hour at a range off mats every two weeks. I know what technical changes I need to make but it seems a bit futile trying to change a motor pattern without a big feedback loop 

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So a question for @iacas and the other instructors in the thread...

 

Is there any benefit to practice when it comes down to just getting reps in? I.e. for those of us who don't practice enough, who play rounds every 2 weeks or so, who don't hit enough balls overall, etc. To go to the range, work mostly with a mid-iron where you're expressly trying to make good contact, hit good shots, and trying to hit targets? And then maybe to include some work with driver, which you hit often on the course, and then clubs that you rarely hit on the course (for me things like my 3 utility or 4 hybrid) to get more comfortable with them?

 

Is this just pointless? Or is there some value here?

 

It's better than nothing.

 

But… I think people can get a LOT more out of ten minutes a day at home (get some AlmostGolf balls or something) than you'd think. You don't even have to always hit golf balls. You can do mirror work. Learn what — and often how extreme — feels produce different movement patterns.

[GoGoErky]

56 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

It’s not because I’ve been videoing it just to see if I can actually make the right moves haha. But then I put a ball there and it’s like a different backswing even when not trying to hit it. But it’s getting better 🙂

At what speed is your practice swing perfect and the face not open.

 

i agree gentles that your practice swing isn’t perfect. 
 

You can’t do it with a ball there because your mind/body react to the ball and your goal.

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It's better than nothing.

 

But… I think people can get a LOT more out of ten minutes a day at home (get some AlmostGolf balls or something) than you'd think. You don't even have to always hit golf balls. You can do mirror work. Learn what — and often how extreme — feels produce different movement patterns.

 

That's fair. And I have a hitting mat and net, and some hard-ish foam balls, in the backyard. So I should do more of that. IMHO that's perfect for movement pattern changes. Can video, etc. 

 

I just feel like sometimes I actually want to hit balls and see ball flight to make sure that I'm not ingraining bad things. I'm terrified of using real balls and my Garmin R10 in the backyard lest I somehow miss the net and damage someone else's house, or ricochet off the fence and damage my own... And the R10 won't work with the foam balls. So hitting purely into a net seems ideal for movement changes but maybe not perfect for making sure I'm not introducing new problems.

 

I guess I'm wondering to what extent actually getting reps / consistency and caring about ball flight meshes with the practice intended to change movement patterns, for those of us with double-digit handicaps...

 

[Pnwpingi210]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It's better than nothing.

 

But… I think people can get a LOT more out of ten minutes a day at home (get some AlmostGolf balls or something) than you'd think. You don't even have to always hit golf balls. You can do mirror work. Learn what — and often how extreme — feels produce different movement patterns.

Im 💯 a convert to working intentionally on things in the back yard, even it’s 15 mins, vs going to the range a couple times a week and just hitting balls for the sake of getting good contact.

 

I actually got worse on course (worse than no practice and trunk slamming) when I had a driving range membership and was hitting 300 ish balls per week.  I improved dramatically at the range based on my ability to hit distances and targets (via Toptracer) but I was lost on course.  During that time I developed a nasty alignment problem and hitting off cheap mats had me doing weird stuff switch my release.  
 

I actually got some coaching and rarely use the range unless it’s a small bucket to get loose before a round and my ball striking is better than ever. Even then it still more process based than outcome based.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Pnwpingi210

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I just feel like sometimes I actually want to hit balls and see ball flight to make sure that I'm not ingraining bad things.

 

Get past that.

 

Trust what you're working on to create the better ball flight. The immediate results (changing the movement pattern) cannot be sacrificed for the longer-term desired results.

 

Caring right then in a practice session about the end result is the opposite of what you should be doing. Care about the movement pattern.

 

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So hitting purely into a net seems ideal for movement changes but maybe not perfect for making sure I'm not introducing new problems.

 

I suggest you find a way to get past that.

 

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I guess I'm wondering to what extent actually getting reps / consistency and caring about ball flight meshes with the practice intended to change movement patterns, for those of us with double-digit handicaps...

 

I feel like that's been talked about a bunch already.

 

I know I've typed out that I don't care about the ball flight, or if half of my shots are shanks, in a practice session.

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I just feel like sometimes I actually want to hit balls and see ball flight to make sure that I'm not ingraining bad things.

Basing changes on ball flight is going to slow your progress. You become result oriented and instead of working on whatever it is your working on you change to something else and slow progress or regress.

 

You can’t worry about what the ball is doing when making a movement change. 
 

read this post from Monte 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

And the R10 won't work with the foam balls. So hitting purely into a net seems ideal for movement changes but maybe not perfect for making sure I'm not introducing new problems.

The video is to ensure you arent introducing new problems.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by GoGoErky

[NosajNeelik]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

At what speed is your practice swing perfect and the face not open.

 

i agree gentles that your practice swing isn’t perfect. 
 

You can’t do it with a ball there because your mind/body react to the ball and your goal.

Yes I understand. Thats the whole point of the post lol

[GoGoErky]

27 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

Yes I understand. Thats the whole point of the post lol

We know the point you were trying to make., but you tried to say you have a perfect backswing which would make you a true outlier because it’s pretty well established practice swings are non functional. 

 

 

[NosajNeelik]

34 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

We know the point you were trying to make., but you tried to say you have a perfect backswing which would make you a true outlier because it’s pretty well established practice swings are non functional. 

 

 

You are missing the point sorry. I worked on my swing with a coach and can get it exactly how we want on video but without the ball. Now trying to make same moves with the ball it’s not the same. Getting there and way better than before but not there yet. 
 

if all practice swings are non functional then why do pga and lpga pros do them? 

Edited December 27, 2024 by NosajNeelik

[CPT_LHR_ATL]

One quick, specific question for @iacas. What rough % of full swing speed do you consider the sweet spot for form/movement practice? Thanks.

Edited December 27, 2024 by CPT_LHR_ATL