Good Practice (Often Boring Practice)

[GoGoErky]

21 minutes ago, NosajNeelik said:

Ok dude. You’re always right. This is the reason people don't like to post because it’s not really a discussion anymore. Cheers and you’re still not actually reading what I wrote with regards to getting into positions on video to learn what they feel like without the ball so I can focus on that and not hitting the ball. Tons of coaches say to work on the motion without the ball so I’m not sure where you get that’s it’s a bad thing. Either way, I’ll do what I’m doing and talk to my coach especially considering you’re not even a golf coach admittedly but a personal trainer. You sure seem to have a lot of aggressive advice about the golf swing though 🙄

Working on feels without a ball yes,. Working on a full practice swing with no ball there not a coach I know or follow that would spend time with a student to perfect a full speed practice swing. 
 

There are things like cast a or cast b from Monte’s ntc series that would work for working on feels to help engrain a movement but the drill is done hitting a ball either slow motion or with some speed

ive spen the last 3 years studying different instructors and gong through their online courses. I talk with 1-2 coaches almost daily about the golf swing. I have a decent idea of the swing and the benefit of my experience as a personal trainer and corrective exercise specialist is I understand how the body moves, how the neuro system works especially when it comes to retraining motor patterns 

 

 

Maybe a highly respected coach saying is better than me saying in your mind

 

https://www.instagram.com/share/BBEVcbXgZ0

 

 

[NosajNeelik]

15 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Working on feels without a ball yes,. Working on a full practice swing with no ball there not a coach I know or follow that would spend time with a student to perfect a full speed practice swing. 
 

There are things like cast a or cast b from Monte’s ntc series that would work for working on feels to help engrain a movement but the drill is done hitting a ball either slow motion or with some speed

ive spen the last 3 years studying different instructors and gong through their online courses. I talk with 1-2 coaches almost daily about the golf swing. I have a decent idea of the swing and the benefit of my experience as a personal trainer and corrective exercise specialist is I understand how the body moves, how the neuro system works especially when it comes to retraining motor patterns 

 

 

Maybe a highly respected coach saying is better than me saying in your mind

 

https://www.instagram.com/share/BBEVcbXgZ0

 

 

I never said I’m working on full speed practice swings, practice swings are for before you hit the shot. I’ve been talking about changing a motion and how I’m doing it in response to the OP. Thanks for proving my point (not reading what I’m writing and not being an actual golf instructor), and if I want advice, I’ll ask (I never did). 

Edited December 29, 2024 by NosajNeelik

[iacas]

FWIW, I think you were both talking past each other a little bit.

[iacas]

On 12/26/2024 at 4:12 PM, KD1 said:

Thoughts? Have you listed to that? I know the episode has been mentioned in the forums a few times before.

 

I wanted to add that a further reason for my breaks is that one of the things that can strengthen learning (it applies more strongly to learning "book" stuff than physical movements, but it's still a thing in the physical realm) is forcing recall. For example, you're better off quizzing yourself for a test than you are just re-reading the info. Recalling the info improves learning.

 

When I take a little break, I'm "forgetting" some of the feels a bit, and thus I'm forced to "recall" them again.

 

It's not the only reason, but it's among them.

[Archimedes65]

3 hours ago, NosajNeelik said:

Ok dude. You’re always right. This is the reason people don't like to post because it’s not really a discussion anymore. 

 

Dude, just make use of the ignore function. I don’t mean this as snarky to anyone.  It’s a very useful function to improve the content that you see and interact with on this site, and it will save you from wasting time on meaningless debates that go nowhere.  Everyone should use it.  I’m sure I’m on more than one WRXer’s ignore list and that’s a good thing.  I’ve got 8-10 people on mine and it has improved my experience on this site tenfold.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Archimedes65

[Nels55]

 

[Hawkeye77]

On 12/23/2024 at 9:54 PM, iacas said:

Golfers/students watching me doing my technique practice at my indoor academy will often notice:

 

1. I hit about one ball every 45-60 seconds. I rarely hit more than three balls without taking a small break (enough to walk out and collect them), glance at a text, and get back to it.
2. I often practice with a 6I only (though I'll occasionally hit an 8, or a 4).
3. I hit my 6I between 100 and 150 yards. Sometimes out to 160.
4. I don't really care about contact. I've had practice sessions where half of my shots are shanks. It's fine.
5. I monitor one or two launch monitor data points at a time. Right now, it's just path, even though I'm not really working on path (I just don't want it to get too out of whack).
6. I never have a "breakthrough." *
7. I work on the same thing for weeks or, more frequently, months.
8. I have several things (besides the LM) that provide feedback. A PVC pipe at my feet. Mirrors. A HackMotion. Whatever.
9. I am constantly monitoring the little things. Is my right foot square or turned out 5°? How's my grip? Distance from the ball? Etc.
10. I record myself on video.

 

To elaborate on each:

 

1. Learning happens in the breaks between. When you can absorb. Process.
2. Because why not? It keeps things simpler, and if I'm not bored by doing it, because of #6 and #7… so what? Plus, it's all stickered up for the QuadMAX.
3. I know how far I hit my 6I (about 183). I don't need to constantly prove it, and practicing at full speed is not conducive to making changes.
4. I'm not working on contact. If you interrupt me in the middle of a practice session and say "hit one good," I'll do that. I tend to hit it out of the toe side, so when I'm exaggerating something, I often move it a bit too far into the heel.
5. I'm not making "golf swings" per se, I'm making a series of movements for the purpose of "playing around with" the piece I'm working on.
6. More on this below. *
7. More on this below. *
8. If you're not practicing with feedback, you're just exercising. And probably not really doing that well, either. 😄 
9. Great players do the ordinary things extraordinarily well. And consistently. I'm not great (PGA Tour), but I can do the ordinary things well.
10. Feel ain't real. And sometimes, a mirror isn't quite enough, since you have to be looking at it while you "feel" and see what it produces.

 

* I have this sign (and a few others) in my academy:

 

 

I don't have breakthroughs. Improving at golf is, at this point, about putting in the work. About taking care of the details and doing what I need to do. I have a loosely defined plan (I may spend more or slightly less time than planned — I don't want to hard-code timelines in, though I'm also in no rush).

 

———————

 

Why am I posting this? Because I see posts by others where they "have a breakthrough" or they "think they've got it" or they "struck the ball phenomenally well" that session. Who cares? The point of technique practice is to change the technique. To improve it. It's not to flush it. That'll come… if you're working on the right things in the right way.

 

Go slow. Play around in the "space" of your improvement. Give it time. Be patient and disciplined. Don't worry about results. Trust.

 

Good practice is often boring practice. It's not exciting. It's about putting in the reps.

 

LOL, was reading this and thinking you and Monte would agree on most if not all of this and sure enough!

 

 

[Rbsiedsc]

Did this again at the range after my speed session. Is tedious but I think it’s going to pay dividends. Last 6 balls I did do Monte’s three ball drill just to mix things up but 90% of the balls I hit were this way. I never knew I could feel so good after a small bucket plus a few extra balls that were left behind. 

[virtuoso]

All practice swings are not created equal.

[bladehunter]

On 12/26/2024 at 3:31 PM, iacas said:

 

I can't run half a mile on a treadmill without getting bored. I watched a kid practice his backswing in Florida once for 2.5 hours. Never hit a ball. Had mirrors, a video camera, etc. I couldn't do that. I have to eventually chip a ball out there, even if it's just to "reset" things. Make me start over. Ball position, everything.

 

Practicing properly can be boring, because you're not hitting shots, but even though I'm working on the backswing… I'd be TOO bored if I just worked on the backswing and never actually hit something, even at a slower speed.

 

I'll say to students "let's make a rehearsal backswing here" and it's odd how many push the ball away. I say "no, no, with a ball there. Makes it more 'real' to you." You're gonna have to do it with the ball there, so if you're just making a backswing… why not have the ball there? Also, sometimes I'll say "okay now hit it."

 

But basically:

• It makes sure I'm still somewhat aware of the clubface, the AoA, etc.
• It confirms to me that even though what I'm doing can feel weird, it still "works."

 

I/me can be "the student" too.

 

 

I'm constantly working on something. Sometimes it's closer to "maintenance" but "maintenance" is just a shade of grey from "change." Sometimes it's more focused work.

But like I said above, I can always just "hit a shot" with one swing thought. Sometimes it's the same/similar to what I'm working on, sometimes it's not.

 

 

I almost never play a round on a simulator. I hit almost all of my shots, when practicing, on the "range" or occasionally on-course practice just so I have some more feedback. I often don't care, but if I want to take a glance, it's there. Like I said I monitor one or two things, typically.

 

I meant up above that I can go from practicing for an hour indoors at my academy to "playing golf." I don't ever really find myself "between patterns" because I'm pretty good, so I'm always just able to do what I do a little bit better or a little bit worse. When I work on my next piece, I'll have to play with a slightly more open face at setup as exaggerating it will send my path a little farther out than I'll end up playing with, but… that's about it.

 

Occasionally a student who wants to play while working on something will have to play a "different" shot in the middle. They can get caught between patterns. If they were a pull-slicer, and we change the face a bit, they might have to play some bigger pulls that don't cut as much at first. Something like that.

But, again, I can "just play" even when I'm right in the middle of working on things.

 

 

I almost never do that. That'd require me to care what the ball is doing, and be in breach of #4. I'm trying to change the movement pattern, trusting that the ball flight changes will be there (and they are).

 

Occasionally I practice "on the course" (on the sim), but I don't care what the ball is doing. I'm still just looking at the one or two data points I want to see.

 

For example, one time:

 

 

I was practicing "on the course" and happened to hole out. I hit a lot of balls that day short, right in the water, deep left into the bunkers… it didn't matter. All I was trying to do was watch the path to stay slightly right and to keep the AoA negative. Sometimes I don't even care much about one of those things.

 

Sometimes the range gets more boring, and sometimes you can hole out for albatross by setting GSPro to practice "on the course." Repeatedly hitting the same shot.

 

 

Yes. I can separate out "practice mode" and "play mode."

Thanks for the reply.  I’ve meant to respond 29 times since  then.  Been hectic.  
 

 

I hear ya.  I’d say I’m same.  I need to feel engaged.  And I’m a guy who loves practice. Loves to hit balls at targets. And funny enough. Was taught by an old school coach to work on things just as you're saying.  Slow.  To this day my go to polish or thing to do if I pickup a club after a week or so off - grab a sand or gap wedge and start hitting half speed shapes to targets. Both ways.  And straight  is also a shape. We never worked in full speed . Just a full speed ball or two at the end.  Maybe one before switching clubs etc . A the time I thought this was to cure me or the yank down to the ball that I had. And it did help.  But it was more about pattern recognition I think. 
 

but that leads to the ball in play thing.  I’m not disagreeing. But to me.  I’d have issue with seeing a shank. Etc. I’d want to feel good contact to validate what I was doing.  No? To me that goes hand in hand with staying interested.  
 

anyway. Just wanted to say again that I love the post.  And so many who never get better don’t realize how many slow and or partial moves the better players make while nobody is looking.  If you play with a guy or gal who’s getting better often.  Theyre putting in loads of unseen work .  Beware of the guy who shows up to the course 3-4 times a month for $ games.  Unless he’s just donating , he has a cubbie hole somewhere , where he works hard on the small things.  

[iacas]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I hear ya. I’d say I’m same. I need to feel engaged. And I’m a guy who loves practice. Loves to hit balls at targets.

 

To be clear, I was just hitting balls on a "course" but I still didn't really care where they were going. One just happened to go in. Plenty went short right, long left, etc. And if the path was fine, then that was good by me.

 

I just hit on the 13th at that course for a change of scenery. Different sounds and visuals. One just went in.

 

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’d have issue with seeing a shank. Etc. I’d want to feel good contact to validate what I was doing.  No? To me that goes hand in hand with staying interested.

 

I don't need to have good contact to stay interested. If I hit a LOT of bad shots in a row, I might break from working on something to just hit a few solid, as I said earlier, but I've also shanked half the balls in some really, really good range sessions. My miss is on the toe, so when I exaggerate the fix (which is just what I tend to work on, it's not a specific fix for a toe ball)… it's often a little in the heel.

 

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

And so many who never get better don’t realize how many slow and or partial moves the better players make while nobody is looking.  If you play with a guy or gal who’s getting better often.  Theyre putting in loads of unseen work 

 

Lots. But the perk of having your own academy is that your students can see a lot of that work. The irony is… it's generally the students who are also putting in some work, as the ones who don't… aren't there to see me doing it! 😄 

[RayPlan]

@iacas I'm curious about a mental aspect related to good practice: how beneficial is it to spend time thinking about/reviewing the thing you're working on when you're between practice sessions? Is there a point where it becomes excessive, or is a single-minded focus a sign of being serious about improvement? Asking for a friend.

 

I'm thinking about this in the context of your #1 - "Learning happens in the breaks between." You were talking about the breaks between hitting balls, but zooming out a little further, does that also hold true for breaks between practice sessions?

 

I learned programming in the last several years, and one of the best pieces of problem-solving advice I've heard in that context is that sometimes it's best to just stop thinking about the problem, sleep on it, then come back to it fresh. I tend to think about things from a problem-solving/troubleshooting perspective, so I'm wondering if that advice would apply to golf practice?

 

[bill.ig]

On 1/3/2025 at 6:54 AM, RayPlan said:

 

I learned programming in the last several years, and one of the best pieces of problem-solving advice I've heard in that context is that sometimes it's best to just stop thinking about the problem, sleep on it, then come back to it fresh. I tend to think about things from a problem-solving/troubleshooting perspective, so I'm wondering if that advice would apply to golf practice?

 

I have found sleeping on it to be beneficial with my work (IT, accounting stuff). Many times I’ve come to the desk the following morning with a better answer.

 

Similarly I usually figure out why I hit the ball so poorly on the ride home from the course. Better late than never.

P.S., great post OP. Thanks for sharing.

 

Edited January 4 by bill.ig

[iacas]

Sleeping on a mental problem or something isn't quite the same as sleeping on a physical movement change. Sleep is beneficial to both, don't get me wrong… but not really in the same exact way.

[Hawkeye77]

On 1/2/2025 at 12:49 PM, bladehunter said:

Thanks for the reply.  I’ve meant to respond 29 times since  then.  Been hectic.  
 

 

I hear ya.  I’d say I’m same.  I need to feel engaged.  And I’m a guy who loves practice. Loves to hit balls at targets. And funny enough. Was taught by an old school coach to work on things just as you're saying.  Slow.  To this day my go to polish or thing to do if I pickup a club after a week or so off - grab a sand or gap wedge and start hitting half speed shapes to targets. Both ways.  And straight  is also a shape. We never worked in full speed . Just a full speed ball or two at the end.  Maybe one before switching clubs etc . A the time I thought this was to cure me or the yank down to the ball that I had. And it did help.  But it was more about pattern recognition I think. 
 

but that leads to the ball in play thing.  I’m not disagreeing. But to me.  I’d have issue with seeing a shank. Etc. I’d want to feel good contact to validate what I was doing.  No? To me that goes hand in hand with staying interested.  
 

anyway. Just wanted to say again that I love the post.  And so many who never get better don’t realize how many slow and or partial moves the better players make while nobody is looking.  If you play with a guy or gal who’s getting better often.  Theyre putting in loads of unseen work .  Beware of the guy who shows up to the course 3-4 times a month for $ games.  Unless he’s just donating , he has a cubbie hole somewhere , where he works hard on the small things.  

 

Monte often will demonstrate and prescribe certain drills and is often heard to say not to worry about where the ball goes when doing them.  I understand what he means but it can definitely be hard to remove myself from the result vs. what the point of the drill is.

[Nels55]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Monte often will demonstrate and prescribe certain drills and is often heard to say not to worry about where the ball goes when doing them.  I understand what he means but it can definitely be hard to remove myself from the result vs. what the point of the drill is.

Difficult.  LOL more like impossible for me.  Just another of my many failings.  Spending an hour hitting mostly shanks is incomprehensible to me.  I have no problem intentionally hitting bad shots like doing Adam Young's high, low, heel, toe drills but working on a move like @iacas does is not something I can do.  Well, maybe if I had a gun to my head...

Edited January 5 by Nels55

[iacas]

This speaks a bit to point #1: https://newsletter.loustagnergolf.com/p/why-breaks-might-be-the-secret-to-better-practice (and goes a bit farther than I had even said in the first post. I collect balls every three or four shots… but I stop and rest (sit still with my eyes closed) every 15 minutes or so, too).

[Elkhair]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

This speaks a bit to point #1: https://newsletter.loustagnergolf.com/p/why-breaks-might-be-the-secret-to-better-practice (and goes a bit farther than I had even said in the first post. I collect balls every three or four shots… but I stop and rest (sit still with my eyes closed) every 15 minutes or so, too).

This is a good idea but when renting a simulator resting is tough

[RayPlan]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

This speaks a bit to point #1: https://newsletter.loustagnergolf.com/p/why-breaks-might-be-the-secret-to-better-practice (and goes a bit farther than I had even said in the first post. I collect balls every three or four shots… but I stop and rest (sit still with my eyes closed) every 15 minutes or so, too).

Sitting still with your eyes closed? Like meditating?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Elkhair said:

This is a good idea but when renting a simulator resting is tough

 

Ha ha, yes. It's tough when you're paying for the time.

 

I'd recommend if you have an hour… at least spend five or six minutes at the end sitting quietly somewhere, ideally with your eyes closed. Even a minute break twice in the session can help.

[RayPlan]

@iacas I'm dealing with a sort of conceptual problem as I'm trying to practice my priority issues in a good (boring) way, which comes down to this: every part of the swing can be broken down into extremely granular detail, and all of those parts flow together, with later elements dependent on earlier ones. It's like a puzzle in motion.

 

The problem I'm facing is that I don't necessarily know if I'm trying to do too many things at once. For example, I'm focusing on my hip rotation right now, something that occurs throughout the swing. That's probably too broad to classify as one thing.

 

But say I'm focusing on the backswing portion, and in reviewing video, I can see that something doesn't look right. To address the issue, there may be two things that I need to feel, meaning two things I need to remember to do when drilling the motion. And those things may be in different parts of the body.

 

So are each of those feels a single move that I should focus on, one at a time? Or is the backswing hip turn one thing, and I just need to do all of those things together? 

 

 

[Rbsiedsc]

On 1/17/2025 at 8:01 PM, iacas said:

This speaks a bit to point #1: https://newsletter.loustagnergolf.com/p/why-breaks-might-be-the-secret-to-better-practice (and goes a bit farther than I had even said in the first post. I collect balls every three or four shots… but I stop and rest (sit still with my eyes closed) every 15 minutes or so, too).

Really appreciate this piece. Last three days I have taken the break at 15 min with eyes closed to heart. It seems to help. I also did that with my break between sets of the Stack and even though I didn’t feel like I swung fast the results spoke otherwise.