Getting the club behind you?

[Brokensticks]

Hey. 
 

I want to know what you do to get that pro look where the arms fire but backwards, basicly following the same ”plane” just reversed. 
 

It can be seen on most pros on a dtl view, the body turns but the club is traveling away from target and then the club get pulled in from behind if that makes sense. I guess this is the ”shallowing move” everyone wants. 
 

Looking at my swing I feel like Im almost pulling the club diagonally to the ball instead of letting it take a longer route. 
 

How would you practice this because I guess better separation is one piece of the puzzle and a more relaxed release with braking happening instead of wrestling the club even if a bent lead arm kinda gives this whole ”pulling look” at impact but Im talking about at the turn of the backswing. 
 

thanks. 

[TheDeanAbides]

You need NTC, my friend. The answer to all these questions.

 

https://video.rebelliongolf.com/programs/noturncast

[DaveLeeNC]

15 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

How would you practice this ...

 

I found this to be incrementally helpful. At the top of your BS envision a vertical plane that runs through the ball and through your your hands. The first move of your hands should be in this plane and away from the ball.

 

dave

[Valtiel]

15 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Looking at my swing I feel like Im almost pulling the club diagonally to the ball instead of letting it take a longer route. 

 

14 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I found this to be incrementally helpful. At the top of your BS envision a vertical plane that runs through the ball and through your your hands. The first move of your hands should be in this plane and away from the ball.

Even before that IMO that biggest difference is the "staying closed" longer concept. When you feel like you're "pulling the club diagonally" assuming you mean somewhat out/over the top it's often because you're spinning your shoulders too early in the downswing. Keeping your shoulders closed longer in transition can help, but you'll also need to look at your wrist conditions at the top to make sure you haven't arrived in a wonky position there that forces you to compensate. Yanking the club down prematurely can also be for tons of other reasons that are compensations for other issues so you'll need to post good video to get the best answer for you. 

[KMeloney]

I think it's easy to chase the concept of getting your hands ahead of the ball at impact by making a beeline to the ball with your hands. In reality, if you feel like you're releasing the club much earlier and DOWN, and then just turn through the shot, your hands will be forward of the ball at impact, but you'll deliver the club faster/more efficiently.

 

Monte often shows releasing the club early and slightly behind you... Justin Rose has a bunch of videos about lowering your arms behind you and THEN turning... Martin Chuck talks about feeling like you're throwing a javelin away from the target... Jake Hutt talks about slamming the club head down at a spot on the ground behind your back foot... ...all in an effort to have you move your hands and the club back and down instead of dragging the club forward. 

 

If your first move down is at all initiated with your shoulders, these concepts will all feel absolutely foreign (and likely impossible). But if you make a full turn back to a good spot and initiate the down swing with your wrists/arms, then the concept will appear doable. But if your first move has been with your shoulders for any length of time, you'll probably find that even trying to do these actions in slow motion, you'll want to move your shoulders first. It's a big hurdle to overcome.

[Brokensticks]

10 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I think it's easy to chase the concept of getting your hands ahead of the ball at impact by making a beeline to the ball with your hands. In reality, if you feel like you're releasing the club much earlier and DOWN, and then just turn through the shot, your hands will be forward of the ball at impact, but you'll deliver the club faster/more efficiently.

 

Monte often shows releasing the club early and slightly behind you... Justin Rose has a bunch of videos about lowering your arms behind you and THEN turning... Martin Chuck talks about feeling like you're throwing a javelin away from the target... Jake Hutt talks about slamming the club head down at a spot on the ground behind your back foot... ...all in an effort to have you move your hands and the club back and down instead of dragging the club forward. 

 

If your first move down is at all initiated with your shoulders, these concepts will all feel absolutely foreign (and likely impossible). But if you make a full turn back to a good spot and initiate the down swing with your wrists/arms, then the concept will appear doable. But if your first move has been with your shoulders for any length of time, you'll probably find that even trying to do these actions in slow motion, you'll want to move your shoulders first. It's a big hurdle to overcome.

Yeah all those videos and the Tiger videos making it look real simple. 
 

Ive tried it on the range but I pretty much slam the club down chunking it big time. More pratice I guess

[TheDeanAbides]

31 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Yeah all those videos and the Tiger videos making it look real simple. 
 

Ive tried it on the range but I pretty much slam the club down chunking it big time. More pratice I guess

Work on your pivot and make sure you're not dropping your right shoulder in a fake shallowing attempt. Do it slower to begin with. 

[Brokensticks]

Had another lesson yesterday and this is what we end up working on. 
 

My backswing is one piece so I pull everything in, for me it should be more arms. 
 

Secondly I start the downswing by pulling the club with my left shoulder so whats happening is my chest opening too early and I dont extend my arms fully. 
 

Trying to turn off the body and activating more arms. Apparently I dont have to think about rotation at all because my hips are over 45° and chest over 100° at the top of the backswing. 
 

We discussed using a few tools like the padel/right hand drill of open palm hitting to not pull the club out of my right hand. 
 

Also talked about medball slams, important for me to slam it down to my trail foot or Im just going to emphasize my faults. Hopefull that initiating with arms will make it easier to gain more speed when if I can really release the club.  
 

However, there are power hitters that doesnt extend their lead arm so my guess its more important to have the pattern because yanking the handle probably shuts the release down a bit 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 1/15/2025 at 11:53 PM, Brokensticks said:

Yeah all those videos and the Tiger videos making it look real simple. 
 

Ive tried it on the range but I pretty much slam the club down chunking it big time. More pratice I guess

 

Remember two things:

1. When doing movement change work, you can't care where the ball goes. Or in this case, even if you're digging trenches. You only care whether you're making the movement properly. (Video helps). This is HARD. I know I'm not supposed to care but even while I was working on a purely mechanical change at the range yesterday I still couldn't help being disappointed in screwy shots. I just pushed through it because I know it doesn't matter. 
2. When doing movement change work, as Dean says, you have to SLOW IT DOWN. Trying to do movement change work while taking swings that are not only full swings, but full speed swings, is pretty close to impossible. Again, this is hard for most people to get their heads around--sitting there at the range taking little half swings at 50% effort seems like you're doing nothing... But you have to do it. Mentally it can sometimes help to intersperse the drill aspect with partial slow swings and with full swings (but still don't try to hit it HARD) trying to feel the feel of the drill. But sometimes I think that's what instructors tell us to do because they know we can't resist just whacking balls at least for a good portion of the range session lol...

Also agree with Dean that it might be worth investing in the No Turn Cast video he linked. It's $26.99, so it's not like it's a big expense. That said, if you have an actual instructor that you're working on this with, and you like and trust your instructor, stick with them instead of trying to muddy the waters listening to two different instructors at the same time. 

[Brokensticks]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Remember two things:

1. When doing movement change work, you can't care where the ball goes. Or in this case, even if you're digging trenches. You only care whether you're making the movement properly. (Video helps). This is HARD. I know I'm not supposed to care but even while I was working on a purely mechanical change at the range yesterday I still couldn't help being disappointed in screwy shots. I just pushed through it because I know it doesn't matter. 
2. When doing movement change work, as Dean says, you have to SLOW IT DOWN. Trying to do movement change work while taking swings that are not only full swings, but full speed swings, is pretty close to impossible. Again, this is hard for most people to get their heads around--sitting there at the range taking little half swings at 50% effort seems like you're doing nothing... But you have to do it. Mentally it can sometimes help to intersperse the drill aspect with partial slow swings and with full swings (but still don't try to hit it HARD) trying to feel the feel of the drill. But sometimes I think that's what instructors tell us to do because they know we can't resist just whacking balls at least for a good portion of the range session lol...

Also agree with Dean that it might be worth investing in the No Turn Cast video he linked. It's $26.99, so it's not like it's a big expense. That said, if you have an actual instructor that you're working on this with, and you like and trust your instructor, stick with them instead of trying to muddy the waters listening to two different instructors at the same time. 

 Thanks. 
 

Right now I work with an instructor that is heavily influenced by Mike Adams and Terry Rowles but like you say, its difficult to practice the right way even with video. Standing outside in wintertime and doing half swings is a chore. 
 

Right now we try to make the swing more simple as my swing has too much body involved and its pulling the club so we have tried some basic concept or else I fall into the old movements. 
 

My only problem with that is Im 2 lessons deep and we havent touch speed yet and it was the only thing Im interested in but they said we have to fix those things so that when we put the gas down, its more efficient and I get it. 
 

Other times when ballstriking turns for the worse, Im thinking I would trade hcp for swing speed any day. Ive told them Im a bad student in the sense I pretty much practice all the time, doing swings with shaft in the livingroom etc so I know my habits will take some time to kill.

 

I just want more power and looking at real fast guys like Drew Cooper or Jake Knapp, it looks so easy and simple but its obviously not. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

31 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

 

My only problem with that is Im 2 lessons deep and we havent touch speed yet and it was the only thing Im interested in but they said we have to fix those things so that when we put the gas down, its more efficient and I get it. 
 

 

Easiest way for most of us to gain speed isn't to try to get faster, it's to get rid of the things in our swings that are robbing us of speed. 

 

It's not an either/or of accuracy vs power. Make your swing more efficient with better technique and sequencing, and you'll probably see both improve at the same time. 

[Brokensticks]

16 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Easiest way for most of us to gain speed isn't to try to get faster, it's to get rid of the things in our swings that are robbing us of speed. 

 

It's not an either/or of accuracy vs power. Make your swing more efficient with better technique and sequencing, and you'll probably see both improve at the same time. 

 

I agree. 

 

Its just that I monitor my speed with PRGR from time to time, putting it away when practicing technique but full swings I havent gained anything, almost the opposite actually on the driver for example. Same reason I will press upon we doing some speed work next session because the lessons sure aint free and as an 3hcp amateur, I couldnt care less if I went up to 10 hcp if the driver jumped 10mph.

 

Thats my gripe with instructors overall, I sure aint a bad ballstriker so and I get kinda fired up thinking about it but trying to remember that technique can give speed gains but Im at tour speed average already...

 

[RayPlan]

18 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

 

I agree. 

 

Its just that I monitor my speed with PRGR from time to time, putting it away when practicing technique but full swings I havent gained anything, almost the opposite actually on the driver for example. Same reason I will press upon we doing some speed work next session because the lessons sure aint free and as an 3hcp amateur, I couldnt care less if I went up to 10 hcp if the driver jumped 10mph.

 

Thats my gripe with instructors overall, I sure aint a bad ballstriker so and I get kinda fired up thinking about it but trying to remember that technique can give speed gains but Im at tour speed average already...

 

If you're at tour speed average already, then what are you hoping to gain with more speed? How far do you carry your driver?

[Brokensticks]

4 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

If you're at tour speed average already, then what are you hoping to gain with more speed? How far do you carry your driver?

 

Distance. Pure ego stroking as Ive told them aswell. Typically I carry the driver 280 range. Its just fun, I love going to the range. 

[RayPlan]

10 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

 

Distance. Pure ego stroking as Ive told them aswell. Typically I carry the driver 280 range. Its just fun, I love going to the range. 

Post a swing video. Speed probably isn't what's holding you back.

Edited January 18 by RayPlan

[Brokensticks]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Post a swing video. Speed probably isn't what's holding you back.

Holding me back on what? Speed is the only thing I care about. I play at 3 hcp. 

[RayPlan]

12 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Holding me back on what? Speed is the only thing I care about. I play at 3 hcp. 

Distance, based on your previous reply about driver carry. Are you absolutely sure that speed is the only thing keeping you from hitting it longer?

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

 

I agree. 

 

Its just that I monitor my speed with PRGR from time to time, putting it away when practicing technique but full swings I havent gained anything, almost the opposite actually on the driver for example. Same reason I will press upon we doing some speed work next session because the lessons sure aint free and as an 3hcp amateur, I couldnt care less if I went up to 10 hcp if the driver jumped 10mph.

 

Thats my gripe with instructors overall, I sure aint a bad ballstriker so and I get kinda fired up thinking about it but trying to remember that technique can give speed gains but Im at tour speed average already...

 

 

30 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Holding me back on what? Speed is the only thing I care about. I play at 3 hcp. 

 

16 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Distance, based on your previous reply about driver carry. Are you absolutely sure that speed is the only thing keeping you from hitting it longer?

I thinks what he’s saying is that based on your comment about not gaining any speed on your driver despite speed training is there may be something in your swing that’s preventing you from

being able to use that speed.

 

There are some golfers lower than a 3 on here who are working on their game and have an issue or two holding them back from being longer getting the change they want

 

And based on the topic of the thread it would appear there is as you’re looking for how the pros make the moves they do

 

edit: as Monte has pointed out on several occasions speed training and time in the gym will only yield small gains in speed, fixing the swing will have more results, so again if you aren’t gaining or even losing there is a potential speed leak in your swing

Edited January 18 by GoGoErky

[Brokensticks]

6 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Distance, based on your previous reply about driver carry. Are you absolutely sure that speed is the only thing keeping you from hitting it longer?

I mean Im trying to be humble about my carry. I monitor my numbers regularly so Im fairly confident. I have seing videos uploaded in a thread ”too late weight shift?@

[RayPlan]

Are you still swinging like this?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by RayPlan

[Brokensticks]

24 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Are you still swinging like this?

 

 

 

 

Overall most likely. Have a weaker right hand, path more left so face/path is around 2 instead 6. 

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Overall most likely. Have a weaker right hand, path more left so face/path is around 2 instead 6. 

If your swing still resembles that type of motion even with a change in face/path your speed is pretty much capped until you can learn to rotate properly and use the ground. No amount of speed training is going to get your the extra 10mph you so desire for the ego boost

[Brokensticks]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

If your swing still resembles that type of motion even with a change in face/path your speed is pretty much capped until you can learn to rotate properly and use the ground. No amount of speed training is going to get your the extra 10mph you so desire for the ego boost

Thanks. 
 

That is expected and Im working on getting the club down with a more closed chest and then I guess its pivot which moves the club to the ball?

 

I would expect them to put me on a force plate but not yet, Im probably super late on vertical.

[RayPlan]

21 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Thanks. 
 

That is expected and Im working on getting the club down with a more closed chest and then I guess its pivot which moves the club to the ball?

 

I would expect them to put me on a force plate but not yet, Im probably super late on vertical.

I believe @GoGoErky is more concerned about your backswing.

 

Why are you so resistant to addressing your wrists? Valtiel has pointed out the issues in detail here.

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by RayPlan
Question about previous feedback in other threads. Added link

[GoGoErky]

21 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Thanks. 
 

That is expected and Im working on getting the club down with a more closed chest and then I guess its pivot which moves the club to the ball?

 

I would expect them to put me on a force plate but not yet, Im probably super late on vertical.

 

16 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I believe @GoGoErky is more concerned about your backswing.

For the most part yes it’s the backswing. Rotation not great, arm over run. It will be harder to have a good transition and downswing from there. But in the downswing the squat rather than a pressure shift to the lead side is going to hurt speed as well.

 

[Brokensticks]

17 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I believe @GoGoErky is more concerned about your backswing.

 Ok. 
 

I think Ive voiced some concerns here in the other thread ”Biomechanics…”. I was measured, checked how my arms fold and started talking about the Mike Adams thing of how I should be swinging and my high hands/across the line was something I was told ”Dont change it, its you” basicly so I tried to research the amount of truth to those statements.

 

Personally I dont think there is much energy in the club and that I set positions with the wrist instead of forces putting it there but I dont know. Only an amateur. 

[Brokensticks]

2 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

 

For the most part yes it’s the backswing. Rotation not great, arm over run. It will be harder to have a good transition and downswing from there. But in the downswing the squat rather than a pressure shift to the lead side is going to hurt speed as well.

 

What parts should I focus on?

 

I put my videos in sportbox ai and they have me past 45 degree on hips and past 100° on chest on the backswing. 
 

They want to remove my one piece takeaway to have MORE arms so it doesnt get as inside quickly and then more arms on the downswing so I dont run them to the outside. Im kinda skimming the shoulder plane. 
 

This with others is suppose to also help my release as I get chicken winged abit, pulling the handle around my waist is what it looks like. 
 

Sounds like the opposite so yeah I voiced some concerns about this in the biomechanics thread.

 

Thanks for taking your time. 
 

 

[RayPlan]

8 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

What parts should I focus on?

 

I put my videos in sportbox ai and they have me past 45 degree on hips and past 100° on chest on the backswing. 
 

They want to remove my one piece takeaway to have MORE arms so it doesnt get as inside quickly and then more arms on the downswing so I dont run them to the outside. Im kinda skimming the shoulder plane. 
 

This with others is suppose to also help my release as I get chicken winged abit, pulling the handle around my waist is what it looks like. 
 

Sounds like the opposite so yeah I voiced some concerns about this in the biomechanics thread.

 

Thanks for taking your time. 
 

 

Valtiel pointed this out in the other thread. Your left wrist is pretty cupped at the top. Have you tried (or considered) getting that wrist more flat? If not, why not?

 

 

It seems like you're looking at too many different variables at once. 

 

Edited January 18 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

57 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

What parts should I focus on?

 

I put my videos in sportbox ai and they have me past 45 degree on hips and past 100° on chest on the backswing. 
 

They want to remove my one piece takeaway to have MORE arms so it doesnt get as inside quickly and then more arms on the downswing so I dont run them to the outside. Im kinda skimming the shoulder plane. 
 

This with others is suppose to also help my release as I get chicken winged abit, pulling the handle around my waist is what it looks like. 
 

Sounds like the opposite so yeah I voiced some concerns about this in the biomechanics thread.

 

Thanks for taking your time. 
 

 

The one piece takeaway is terrible. It’s overdone by nearly every amateur. It causes late wrist set, hips overturn and arm run which lead to sequencing issues.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CukD6VzsSKy/?igsh=Y203bHduaHd0bzk=

 

Early wrist set, pressure shift and maxed out around p2 and nlt than p3.

 

This is the first part.

 

 

50 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Valtiel pointed this out in the other thread. Your left wrist is pretty cupped at the top. Have you tried (or considered) getting that wrist more flat? If not, why not?

 

 

It seems like you're looking at too many different variables at once. 

 

 I was going to try and go find the the thread where he broke down the OPs swing, thanks for saving time, but yeah the work should be focused on what was pointed out in this thread 

[Brokensticks]

44 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Valtiel pointed this out in the other thread. Your left wrist is pretty cupped at the top. Have you tried (or considered) getting that wrist more flat? If not, why not?

 

 

It seems like you're looking at too many different variables at once. 

 

Yeah it was one of the things where things contradicted in my head when I was at the instructor. 
 

Im standing there making some repetitions where I have my wrist flat or slightly bent the other way for feel and the instructor ask me why Im doing it. 
 

I said something about the wrist conditions and he tell me something along the line of my elbows will always want to fold towards my shirt seam and if that happens ”let it happen because its you”.

 

About the squat they have me posting more towards the front so that my ”squat” would my hips aligned with left knee so I can get up quicker. 
 

I agree with the part of Im working too many things. 
 

I feel confused tbh. I went to one of the more expensive instructors with high rating and I keep questioning if I should commit fully because of the vastly different things I hear. 
 

Ive tried to listen to all the seminars with Terry and Mike and even there, there are different swings in the same category.

 

Like Rory, Scheffler and Bryson is put in the same box of ”weak right hand front post golfers”. Rory has deep hands with the driver, Scottie has high hands and Bryson is in the middle. 
 

Very confusing for me.