Getting the club behind you?

[Nels55]

17 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Yeah it was one of the things where things contradicted in my head when I was at the instructor. 
 

Im standing there making some repetitions where I have my wrist flat or slightly bent the other way for feel and the instructor ask me why Im doing it. 
 

I said something about the wrist conditions and he tell me something along the line of my elbows will always want to fold towards my shirt seam and if that happens ”let it happen because its you”.

 

About the squat they have me posting more towards the front so that my ”squat” would my hips aligned with left knee so I can get up quicker. 
 

I agree with the part of Im working too many things. 
 

I feel confused tbh. I went to one of the more expensive instructors with high rating and I keep questioning if I should commit fully because of the vastly different things I hear. 
 

Ive tried to listen to all the seminars with Terry and Mike and even there, there are different swings in the same category.

 

Like Rory, Scheffler and Bryson is put in the same box of ”weak right hand front post golfers”. Rory has deep hands with the driver, Scottie has high hands and Bryson is in the middle. 
 

Very confusing for me. 

I think that your swing is good and I doubt that improving technique will get you 10 mph of clubhead speed.  If you want to get that then my thinking would be to do long drive training.  Watch some Kyle Berkshire / Bryson training sessions and do that.  Let go of trying to swing better and take it back as fast and far as you can and then rip it through.  Monitor clubhead speed while you're training and figure out what gives you more speed.  Changing your wrist conditions at TOS is not going to do it imho.

[GoGoErky]

10 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I think that your swing is good and I doubt that improving technique will get you 10 mph of clubhead speed.  If you want to get that then my thinking would be to do long drive training.  Watch some Kyle Berkshire / Bryson training sessions and do that.  Let go of trying to swing better and take it back as fast and far as you can and then rip it through.  Monitor clubhead speed while you're training and figure out what gives you more speed.  Changing your wrist conditions at TOS is not going to do it imho.

What do you think about his swing is good if the goal is to add speed?

 

Why do you think improving rotation and pressure won’t possibly add 10mph?

 

You do understand that Bryson/Berkshire have great technique and are capable if doing what’s needed to swing like that. If he tried that he would hit the ball offline by a lot.

 

what makes you think changing his wrist conditions won’t do anything?

 

if none of that matters why are spending time working on those type of things that Monte gave you?

Edited January 18 by GoGoErky

[Brokensticks]

This is kind of the handpath Im going to be working on. I think many of us has seen pro make this move in slowmotion, Tiger especially against his bag or impact bag. Bryson has his ”right pocket”-feel. 

 

It looks like I pull my hands out, or its that my entire upper body spina out. 
 

what do you think?

 

Edited January 18 by Brokensticks

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

This is kind of the handpath Im going to be working on. I think many of us has seen pro make this move in slowmotion, Tiger especially against his bag or impact bag. Bryson has his ”right pocket”-feel. 

 

It looks like I pull my hands out, or its that my entire upper body spina out. 
 

what do you think?

 

That’s what you want but you can’t work on that with your current backswing. You need to fix the backswing first and then see where your transition and downswing are. Top instructors work mostly on backswing with their students not the downswing. Get the backswing in a good place and it makes the downswing easier 

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, Brokensticks said:

Yeah it was one of the things where things contradicted in my head when I was at the instructor. 
 

Im standing there making some repetitions where I have my wrist flat or slightly bent the other way for feel and the instructor ask me why Im doing it. 
 

I said something about the wrist conditions and he tell me something along the line of my elbows will always want to fold towards my shirt seam and if that happens ”let it happen because its you”.

 

About the squat they have me posting more towards the front so that my ”squat” would my hips aligned with left knee so I can get up quicker. 
 

I agree with the part of Im working too many things. 
 

I feel confused tbh. I went to one of the more expensive instructors with high rating and I keep questioning if I should commit fully because of the vastly different things I hear. 
 

Ive tried to listen to all the seminars with Terry and Mike and even there, there are different swings in the same category.

 

Like Rory, Scheffler and Bryson is put in the same box of ”weak right hand front post golfers”. Rory has deep hands with the driver, Scottie has high hands and Bryson is in the middle. 
 

Very confusing for me. 

I'm not an instructor (far from it), but I'd say if the instruction  style/system is confusing and not clicking with you, then maybe it's not going to be best for you. 

 

There seems to be a body of well-understood golf fundamentals out there, things that are measurable and observable among the best players, which have good success when implemented correctly. Then on the other side there's idiosyncratic swing categorization systems that try to slot players into specific archetypes, and give advice based on the box they think you fit in. Or they otherwise try to let you swing "your swing."

 

I'm not sure why the instructor would stop you from trying something different with your wrists. The cupped wrist makes the clubface open at the top of the swing. From the video, it looks like the face remains open in your downswing, and squares up right at the last moment. Does the instructor like that, or view it as essential to your swing? It seems like it makes the swing unnecessarily difficult. 

 

Anyway, for your original question in this thread, this fits the description of what you were seeking re: moving the club behind/away.

 

 

 

A key idea is that when the club changes direction from the transition, the club should first go up, away from the target, then away from the ball. It's like you're throwing the club away from everything: the ground, the target, and the ball, which gets it on the right arc to swing through the ball. It's all part of Monte's No Turn Cast, referenced earlier in the thread.

 

 

[Brokensticks]

14 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I'm not an instructor (far from it), but I'd say if the instruction  style/system is confusing and not clicking with you, then maybe it's not going to be best for you. 

 

There seems to be a body of well-understood golf fundamentals out there, things that are measurable and observable among the best players, which have good success when implemented correctly. Then on the other side there's idiosyncratic swing categorization systems that try to slot players into specific archetypes, and give advice based on the box they think you fit in. Or they otherwise try to let you swing "your swing."

 

I'm not sure why the instructor would stop you from trying something different with your wrists. The cupped wrist makes the clubface open at the top of the swing. From the video, it looks like the face remains open in your downswing, and squares up right at the last moment. Does the instructor like that, or view it as essential to your swing? It seems like it makes the swing unnecessarily difficult. 

 

Anyway, for your original question in this thread, this fits the description of what you were seeking re: moving the club behind/away.

 

 

 

A key idea is that when the club changes direction from the transition, the club should first go up, away from the target, then away from the ball. It's like you're throwing the club away from everything: the ground, the target, and the ball, which gets it on the right arc to swing through the ball. It's all part of Monte's No Turn Cast, referenced earlier in the thread.

 

 

Thanks again.

 

I think the body-achetypes makes sense to a point that different-bodymeasurements gives different leveragepoint and they have a few examples of pros winning when their swing is matched up, and not winning when they go to a different coach who remodels their swing. 

 

We are working much on releasing the right wrist  earlier with a weaker right hand grip to eliminate my chicken wing, now I should quiet down my lower body on the backswing to have "my arms working properly" so I dont know if its something that is going to change either way. Doesnt sound impossible that if my arms travel on a different path the wrist will set differently, but Im doing weird stuff already so who knows. 

 

Im willing to work but it sounds like its easy to work on the wrong thing to begin with...

[GoGoErky]

2 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

think the body-achetypes makes sense to a point that different-bodymeasurements gives different leveragepoint and they have a few examples of pros winning when their swing is matched up, and not winning when they go to a different coach who remodels their swing. 

But despite that they all do the same things. That’s the measurable part of the golfswing and what we know all good players do and that masters do the opposite of.

 

Pressure shift to trail side early and over at p2 for most and nlt p3. Recentierig and going 50/50 by p4 and then shifting to lead side before transition.

 

Max handspeed around p5, trail elbow unfolding and the lead wrist gaining flexion.

 

So despite different body types they make the same movement patterns 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Im willing to work but it sounds like its easy to work on the wrong thing to begin with.

Yes. Because almost everyone who self diagnoses their swing diagnosis a symptom and not the root cause. 

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, Brokensticks said:

We are working much on releasing the right wrist  earlier with a weaker right hand grip to eliminate my chicken wing, now I should quiet down my lower body on the backswing to have "my arms working properly" so I dont know if its something that is going to change either way. Doesnt sound impossible that if my arms travel on a different path the wrist will set differently, but Im doing weird stuff already so who knows. 

All that sounds more complicated than setting your wrists earlier (left wrist flat, shaft 90° to your arm at left arm parallel), then turning to the top. You can actively control when your wrist set happens, you don't have to rely on your arm path to do that. Valtiel pointed out that the chicken wing is caused by the cupped wrist, so whatever they're trying to get you do force a better "release" of the right hand seems like a compensation. I'm not sure exactly what's meant by "quiet down your lower body" in the backswing to let your arms work properly, but it sounds like a "passive arms" type idea. Is that what they're trying to teach?

[Brokensticks]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

All that sounds more complicated than setting your wrists earlier (left wrist flat, shaft 90° to your arm at left arm parallel), then turning to the top. You can actively control when your wrist set happens, you don't have to rely on your arm path to do that. Valtiel pointed out that the chicken wing is caused by the cupped wrist, so whatever they're trying to get you do force a better "release" of the right hand seems like a compensation. I'm not sure exactly what's meant by "quiet down your lower body" in the backswing to let your arms work properly, but it sounds like a "passive arms" type idea. Is that what they're trying to teach?

Going thru old pictures Ive had flatter wrists in the past but still had the chicken wing going on so Im not really sure. Impact looks very similar.

 

Im gained speed since then, probably the high hands. 
 

We are trying to remove the one piece take away, having the arms move down in the downswing before the chest opens up. The idea is actually the opposite in that the arms are the main power source in the swing, now Im pulling with my shoulders to start it and we dont want that. 
 

Getting a more efficient release without chickenwing before we start using the lower body to step on the gas. Thats the explaination when I asked.

[GoGoErky]

14 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Going thru old pictures Ive had flatter wrists in the past but still had the chicken wing going on so Im not really sure. Impact looks very similar.

 

Im gained speed since then, probably the high hands. 
 

We are trying to remove the one piece take away, having the arms move down in the downswing before the chest opens up. The idea is actually the opposite in that the arms are the main power source in the swing, now Im pulling with my shoulders to start it and we dont want that. 
 

Getting a more efficient release without chickenwing before we start using the lower body to step on the gas. Thats the explaination when I asked.

You chicken wing because of your backswing and then how you squat and stay on the back leg. You have to fix the backswing, hips and wrists

[golferdude54]

Overbent right elbow that’s too far behind you with late wrist set.
 

Get your left wrist set at 90* at P3 like RayPlan said and your right elbow more obtuse. You don’t have to worry about feeling like Jim Furyk from P2 to P3 if you get your right elbow more obtuse, it gets your right elbow more in front of you automatically.

 

Edited January 18 by golferdude54

[TheDeanAbides]

I'll echo what the others have said: you need to give yourself the best possible chance to transition effectively to max out your swing speed potential. The best players in the world can manage quirky moves because of their talent, but we can't do that. 

 

The good news is that you're a decent player, and IME decent players find it easier to make backswing changes. It'll be worth it. 

[Brokensticks]

So to summarize abit so that I understand. 
 

- More vertical hands in backswing instead of wrapping around me ?

- Wrists flatter will put the club more ”laid off”-direction ?

- More pressure lead leg so I squat more on top of it ? 

The confusion appears with statements from example Dana, saying ”half the tour plays with a cupped lead wrist” which leads me to thinking the arm path is the big thing and wrists will set differently if that happens, correct?

 

Many have seen Rorys ”new iron drill” where he sets the club at parallel, then goes to the top and hits it. Is this a drill that would work for my purpose? Observation needed ofc but to plan an action. 

[GoGoErky]

38 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

More vertical hands in backswing instead of wrapping around me ?

- Wrists flatter will put the club more ”laid off”-direction ?

- More pressure lead leg so I squat more on top of it ? 

Yes

yes

squat isn’t what I would be looking for but rather the ability to get the hips working properly, but you also need to get a shift into the trail side first

 

Work in the wrist set and backswing first. Dont worry about the transition or downswing til the backswing is in a better position. Downswing issues may clear up from a better backswing. Once the backswing is in a better position then evaluate the swing and see what else needs to be worked on

 

39 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Many have seen Rorys ”new iron drill” where he sets the club at parallel, then goes to the top and hits it. Is this a drill that would work for my purpose? Observation needed ofc but to plan an action. 

That is a great drill, it’s similar to what Nelly Korda has been seen doing as well as this one from Monte

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igsh=MWNuamdrdHoyajQ4Yg==

[Brokensticks]

17 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Yes

yes

squat isn’t what I would be looking for but rather the ability to get the hips working properly, but you also need to get a shift into the trail side first

 

Work in the wrist set and backswing first. Dont worry about the transition or downswing til the backswing is in a better position. Downswing issues may clear up from a better backswing. Once the backswing is in a better position then evaluate the swing and see what else needs to be worked on

 

That is a great drill, it’s similar to what Nelly Korda has been seen doing as well as this one from Monte

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igsh=MWNuamdrdHoyajQ4Yg==

 OK. 
 

I think Im going to break this down in phases and see what actually leads to a good overall change for speed. 
 

Arm movement is going to be the first. Even if I take it back as far as I do today, that route would probably load the club better. Since I have more power today than the flatter-wrist pics I can only draw that conclusion + same chickenwing. 
 

Wrists sounds more tricky. 
 

Where my brain breaks apart is the examples that hinders from 100% commitment. 
 

Example, Kyle Berkshire has an inside path and cupped wrist.

Rory deep hands and cupped wrist

Couples and Lowry has supercupped wrists and flaring elbows etc

Bryson sets his elbow super deep, to the point where if he didnt flare it, trail wrist would be flat.
Scheffler also has a flaring elbow and across the line.
 

How do you waddle thru all the examples out there that are doing things different? When does it change from being a ”quirky fault” to ”key in his swing”?

 

What I mean by that is I dont think we would have a ”Fred Couples” with straight wrists. We wouldnt have a Bryson smoking drives without a flaring elbow. Scheffler wouldnt be number 1 iron striker on tour if he changed his swing. 
 

I know you said you wasnt a coach so this is like rhetorical questions and rambling, maybe someone sees them and can shed some light. 
 

Im usually a thinker and tinker so this is my kryptonite. 

[golferdude54]

11 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

 OK. 
 

I think Im going to break this down in phases and see what actually leads to a good overall change for speed. 
 

Arm movement is going to be the first. Even if I take it back as far as I do today, that route would probably load the club better. Since I have more power today than the flatter-wrist pics I can only draw that conclusion + same chickenwing. 
 

Wrists sounds more tricky. 
 

Where my brain breaks apart is the examples that hinders from 100% commitment. 
 

Example, Kyle Berkshire has an inside path and cupped wrist.

Rory deep hands and cupped wrist

Couples and Lowry has supercupped wrists and flaring elbows etc

Bryson sets his elbow super deep, to the point where if he didnt flare it, trail wrist would be flat.
Scheffler also has a flaring elbow and across the line.
 

How do you waddle thru all the examples out there that are doing things different? When does it change from being a ”quirky fault” to ”key in his swing”?

 

What I mean by that is I dont think we would have a ”Fred Couples” with straight wrists. We wouldnt have a Bryson smoking drives without a flaring elbow. Scheffler wouldnt be number 1 iron striker on tour if he changed his swing. 
 

I know you said you wasnt a coach so this is like rhetorical questions and rambling, maybe someone sees them and can shed some light. 
 

Im usually a thinker and tinker so this is my kryptonite. 

 

Stats prove that Tiger was a better ball striker than any of the guys you brought up, particularly in 2000 and 2006. He was pretty dang "textbook" when it came to flat left wrist at top, on-plane club, not too flat & not too upright left arm angle, along with a non-flaring right elbow.

 

You're gonna dig yourself into too deep of a rabbit hole if you stray from the "norm" too much. You're doing this for fun, not for a living.

[GoGoErky]

17 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

 OK. 
 

I think Im going to break this down in phases and see what actually leads to a good overall change for speed. 
 

Arm movement is going to be the first. Even if I take it back as far as I do today, that route would probably load the club better. Since I have more power today than the flatter-wrist pics I can only draw that conclusion + same chickenwing. 
 

Wrists sounds more tricky. 
 

Where my brain breaks apart is the examples that hinders from 100% commitment. 
 

Example, Kyle Berkshire has an inside path and cupped wrist.

Rory deep hands and cupped wrist

Couples and Lowry has supercupped wrists and flaring elbows etc

Bryson sets his elbow super deep, to the point where if he didnt flare it, trail wrist would be flat.
Scheffler also has a flaring elbow and across the line.
 

How do you waddle thru all the examples out there that are doing things different? When does it change from being a ”quirky fault” to ”key in his swing”?

 

What I mean by that is I dont think we would have a ”Fred Couples” with straight wrists. We wouldnt have a Bryson smoking drives without a flaring elbow. Scheffler wouldnt be number 1 iron striker on tour if he changed his swing. 
 

I know you said you wasnt a coach so this is like rhetorical questions and rambling, maybe someone sees them and can shed some light. 
 

Im usually a thinker and tinker so this is my kryptonite. 

Those are all matchups for their swings.

 

Cuppes wrists will require more work in transition, but a slight cup is ok, your lead wrist is cupped at address. 
 

All the names you mentioned do the same things. Shift pressure to trail size early and max that out by p2-p3 and start working towards recentering after that and shift to lead side before transition. Hips work in proper order as well. Right hip back in the backswing and left hip back in the downswing 

 

They reach max hand speed around p5, trail elbow is extending and losing angles in the wrist.

 

Tinkering with feels and moving the club around similar to the video iacas posted in weems thread is fine, helps to feel where the club is, what’s good or bad.

 

If the goal is to gain speed then you need a swing that has better mechanics. That requires working on GAP and proper sequencing 

[Brokensticks]

58 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

 

Stats prove that Tiger was a better ball striker than any of the guys you brought up, particularly in 2000 and 2006. He was pretty dang "textbook" when it came to flat left wrist at top, on-plane club, not too flat & not too upright left arm angle, along with a non-flaring right elbow.

 

You're gonna dig yourself into too deep of a rabbit hole if you stray from the "norm" too much. You're doing this for fun, not for a living.

Just want to state Im not trying to sound snarky or whatever, Im not a native speaker so maybe it sounds like Im searching for confrontation but Im not. 
 

Im just trying to understand when someones quirky is beneficial and when its detrimental. 
 

Unfortunately the fun for me lies in the improvements. Seeing the speed goes up and Im euforic, standing on the range thinking Im working on sometimes and then video confirms Im not, is depressing. 

[weems]

6 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Just want to state Im not trying to sound snarky or whatever, Im not a native speaker so maybe it sounds like Im searching for confrontation but Im not. 
 

Im just trying to understand when someones quirky is beneficial and when its detrimental. 
 

Unfortunately the fun for me lies in the improvements. Seeing the speed goes up and Im euforic, standing on the range thinking Im working on sometimes and then video confirms Im not, is depressing. 

I know exactly the feeling you have and I am working through some of the same issues as you currently.  Here is my thread and there is some good info in there as well.

 

 

[KMeloney]

20 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

- Wrists flatter will put the club more ”laid off”-direction ?

No. This is not a cause-and-effect. I can easily send the club across the line with a flat left wrist. It'll shut the face, but doesn't have a direct relationship to the club being laid off.

 

A flat left wrist is NOT mandatory. It's either a match-up with your grip, or a way to square the club face if you otherwise have problems with it.

[Brokensticks]

44 minutes ago, weems said:

I know exactly the feeling you have and I am working through some of the same issues as you currently.  Here is my thread and there is some good info in there as well.

 

 

Hey.

 

I checked your thread and looks like we are opposite of the spectum and working on the same things. 
 

For me this is super ingrained and even if I take it almost to the top, just putting it on motion my arm wants to drift. I think its in a better position when I use momentum to bring the club back but usually not how we play golf lol

18 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

No. This is not a cause-and-effect. I can easily send the club across the line with a flat left wrist. It'll shut the face, but doesn't have a direct relationship to the club being laid off.

 

A flat left wrist is NOT mandatory. It's either a match-up with your grip, or a way to square the club face if you otherwise have problems with it.

Ive heard some of that aswell, the stronger grip you have the more of a cupped wrist you can get away with. 
 

My swing is very functional. My GIR is 62% and fairways from tee is 67%, then comes my putting averaging 35 strokes 🤣

 

I just want more speed and I think its a good idea to load the club better at the top and a better hand release. Its better as I climb speed every season but even with the flat wrists before, I created a chickenwing at impact. Hovland and Jake Knapp comes to mind with bent left arm at impact. 
 

Sometimes we just gotta accept that how we are, but we can try to make it better first but something needs to change now and if it still sticks around, maybe I have to accept that. 

[PedronNiall]

On 1/20/2025 at 10:35 AM, Brokensticks said:

Hey.

 

I checked your thread and looks like we are opposite of the spectum and working on the same things. 
 

For me this is super ingrained and even if I take it almost to the top, just putting it on motion my arm wants to drift. I think its in a better position when I use momentum to bring the club back but usually not how we play golf lol

Ive heard some of that aswell, the stronger grip you have the more of a cupped wrist you can get away with. 
 

My swing is very functional. My GIR is 62% and fairways from tee is 67%, then comes my putting averaging 35 strokes 🤣

 

I just want more speed and I think its a good idea to load the club better at the top and a better hand release. Its better as I climb speed every season but even with the flat wrists before, I created a chickenwing at impact. Hovland and Jake Knapp comes to mind with bent left arm at impact. 
 

Sometimes we just gotta accept that how we are, but we can try to make it better first but something needs to change now and if it still sticks around, maybe I have to accept that. 

 

Chasing Knapp or Hovland or anyone else's look or using what they get away with as a reason to ignore truths about your swing faults is an exercise in madness. Understand one thing: you've been given very clear, concise bits of info in a prior thread as well as a bit more now as to how to get a more efficient swing that's capable of producing more speed yet you continue to talk about what you want to do or how you'd like to look or what pro golfer gets away with what in their swing that they get to practice 40 hours a week. 

 

You've now gone months since someone very kindly went out of their way to give you some insights ignoring the truth that your swing overrun is a result of poor fundamentals and not you being an outlier for flexibility and talent like Knapp. Your swing may be repeatable enough to hit fairways and greens at the rate you mentioned but it has peaked. If you continue to employ it as is your best case scenario is stagnation until time catches up and you no longer have the strength and reflexes to overcome all the bad that's going on.

 

If you want more speed then you need to make your swing as efficient as possible. When you learn to do that I promise you'll laugh at yourself for all the time you wasted chasing it the wrong way. Ask me how I know. 

 

Ignore what's already been shared with you and keep lusting after pipe dreams, looks, and feels at your own peril.

 

[Brokensticks]

4 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Chasing Knapp or Hovland or anyone else's look or using what they get away with as a reason to ignore truths about your swing faults is an exercise in madness. Understand one thing: you've been given very clear, concise bits of info in a prior thread as well as a bit more now as to how to get a more efficient swing that's capable of producing more speed yet you continue to talk about what you want to do or how you'd like to look or what pro golfer gets away with what in their swing that they get to practice 40 hours a week. 

 

You've now gone months since someone very kindly went out of their way to give you some insights ignoring the truth that your swing overrun is a result of poor fundamentals and not you being an outlier for flexibility and talent like Knapp. Your swing may be repeatable enough to hit fairways and greens at the rate you mentioned but it has peaked. If you continue to employ it as is your best case scenario is stagnation until time catches up and you no longer have the strength and reflexes to overcome all the bad that's going on.

 

If you want more speed then you need to make your swing as efficient as possible. When you learn to do that I promise you'll laugh at yourself for all the time you wasted chasing it the wrong way. Ask me how I know. 

 

Ignore what's already been shared with you and keep lusting after pipe dreams, looks, and feels at your own peril.

 

That wasnt what I wanted to say with that at all. 
 

Please share if you want. 
 

I actually went to the range today and did the monte power move which was suggested, just rocking at the top to begin downswing. 

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

That wasnt what I wanted to say with that at all. 
 

Please share if you want. 
 

I actually went to the range today and did the monte power move which was suggested, just rocking at the top to begin downswing. 

 

Take what certain professionals get away with out of your head completely. They literally play for a living and have more time to practice and more resources to help them make them their swings work in spite of technical flaws or weaknesses than anyone not in their lifestyle ever will. The ones you named have been playing since they were kids and have a literal lifetime of full days training their brain to make it all work.

 

Do you want more speed? If that's your goal as you say and it makes you happy to see the numbers go up then you need an efficient swing that lets you drive a little harder through the ball at will; your current overrun at the top accompanied by your lead arm breaking down won't ever be that. Really think about the the two.

 

An efficient swing follows the same path each time, meaning that the only difference for a harder strike can be simplified to driving through the ball harder; it doesn't even require a longer backswing, but if you did bump up the length it would still be more length on a repeatable arc that your body can easily adapt to.

 

I want you to picture yourself taking your backswing as you do now. Picture yourself at the top with your lead arm broken down as the club goes well past parallel. Now I want you to take a second... think about being at setup again... and now imagine taking another backswing and trying to stop at the exact same amount of arm bend as the prior swing with the exact same amount of shoulder turn, while dealing with the clubhead's momentum pulling itself downward and you trying to also get it to the exact same stopping position it was in before. Now imagine you're trying to do that over and over in less than a second during actual swings. In real life your brain is having to interpret body awareness to figure out how much your arm's broken down, how far your hands have been pulled around by the clubhead, and how far the clubhead has dipped despite the loss of feel because of it being so far past parallel and then having to decide how much to compensate in how you deliver the club so that you can try and get a good strike on it... and all of that in less than one second. Lets not even add in the increased loss of control and feedback if that swing overrun has caused your grip to loosen. Now add in you wanting to drive your lower body harder so you can hit the ball farther.

 

You have an inefficient kinetic chain trying to do even more work at a faster speed that needs even more correction and awareness than before. Unless you have a lot of hours and well above average talent that's probably not the way to go.

 

Now myself, I'd rather fix the things adding all those variables to the equation so my brain knows when I make a turn my lead arm will remain straight enough to produce a consistent final hand position with the club in an orientation that allows feedback as to where it is--somewhere very near the norm for most of the swings made before--so my brain then only has to figure out how to match everything up and allow that speed I'm after to pour on at the right time for a little more distance to do its thing.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to be a bit avant garde and suggest a very simple change that I think will get you looking more like the above at the top of the swing and and the follow through, and that's by looking more like them at address. If you're in the mood for a little experiment, work on getting the club to sit in your hands naturally such that when you have taken your grip the club is only the tiniest bit forward when grounded for your shortest irons--with slightly less lean as clubs get longer--and both your hands are pretty much even with the ball as with Tiger and Adam above rather than only the trail hand as you are now. Willing to bet if you work on how the grip rests in your hands until you can feel that naturally at setup it will have your address posture less upright, your balance improving which will lead to much easier use of the ground, your wrists setting more naturally instead of early, your backswing length becoming more manageable, and your strikes being crisper with far less likelihood of a chunk.

 

As the wonderful host of Reading Rainbow puts it, you don't have to take my word for it:

 

 

https://golf.com/instruction/perfect-golf-swing-balanced-setup/

 

P.S. the avant garde thing was a joke. Some here suggest the norm in this section is to recommend crazy overhauls, but the vast majority here try to keep the changes and fixes as simple as possible.

[Brokensticks]

3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Take what certain professionals get away with out of your head completely. They literally play for a living and have more time to practice and more resources to help them make them their swings work in spite of technical flaws or weaknesses than anyone not in their lifestyle ever will. The ones you named have been playing since they were kids and have a literal lifetime of full days training their brain to make it all work.

 

Do you want more speed? If that's your goal as you say and it makes you happy to see the numbers go up then you need an efficient swing that lets you drive a little harder through the ball at will; your current overrun at the top accompanied by your lead arm breaking down won't ever be that. Really think about the the two.

 

An efficient swing follows the same path each time, meaning that the only difference for a harder strike can be simplified to driving through the ball harder; it doesn't even require a longer backswing, but if you did bump up the length it would still be more length on a repeatable arc that your body can easily adapt to.

 

I want you to picture yourself taking your backswing as you do now. Picture yourself at the top with your lead arm broken down as the club goes well past parallel. Now I want you to take a second... think about being at setup again... and now imagine taking another backswing and trying to stop at the exact same amount of arm bend as the prior swing with the exact same amount of shoulder turn, while dealing with the clubhead's momentum pulling itself downward and you trying to also get it to the exact same stopping position it was in before. Now imagine you're trying to do that over and over in less than a second during actual swings. In real life your brain is having to interpret body awareness to figure out how much your arm's broken down, how far your hands have been pulled around by the clubhead, and how far the clubhead has dipped despite the loss of feel because of it being so far past parallel and then having to decide how much to compensate in how you deliver the club so that you can try and get a good strike on it... and all of that in less than one second. Lets not even add in the increased loss of control and feedback if that swing overrun has caused your grip to loosen. Now add in you wanting to drive your lower body harder so you can hit the ball farther.

 

You have an inefficient kinetic chain trying to do even more work at a faster speed that needs even more correction and awareness than before. Unless you have a lot of hours and well above average talent that's probably not the way to go.

 

Now myself, I'd rather fix the things adding all those variables to the equation so my brain knows when I make a turn my lead arm will remain straight enough to produce a consistent final hand position with the club in an orientation that allows feedback as to where it is--somewhere very near the norm for most of the swings made before--so my brain then only has to figure out how to match everything up and allow that speed I'm after to pour on at the right time for a little more distance to do its thing.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to be a bit avant garde and suggest a very simple change that I think will get you looking more like the above at the top of the swing and and the follow through, and that's by looking more like them at address. If you're in the mood for a little experiment, work on getting the club to sit in your hands naturally such that when you have taken your grip the club is only the tiniest bit forward when grounded for your shortest irons--with slightly less lean as clubs get longer--and both your hands are pretty much even with the ball as with Tiger and Adam above rather than only the trail hand as you are now. Willing to bet if you work on how the grip rests in your hands until you can feel that naturally at setup it will have your address posture less upright, your balance improving which will lead to much easier use of the ground, your wrists setting more naturally instead of early, your backswing length becoming more manageable, and your strikes being crisper with far less likelihood of a chunk.

 

As the wonderful host of Reading Rainbow puts it, you don't have to take my word for it:

 

 

https://golf.com/instruction/perfect-golf-swing-balanced-setup/

 

P.S. the avant garde thing was a joke. Some here suggest the norm in this section is to recommend crazy overhauls, but the vast majority here try to keep the changes and fixes as simple as possible.

Thanks for the answer. 
 

I just want to point out here that all of this ”resistance to change”, isnt just me. I took the advice to search for a professional, took one of the more expensive ones because it had alot if ”we measure you for a swing that fits you” thing, more or less principe of what Mike Adams and Terry Rowles teaches. 
 

I asked about the wrists, arms folding etc and they said it was no biggie, basicly its my patter to fold a little, cup a little etc. I was expecting to be shaped more ”like a traditional pro swing” but was told every swing can be found on tour. Some things sounds crazy and other things make sense, the only thing that difference for you and me is that I think some of the pros with quirks in their swings, are pros because they dont try to solve quirks in their swing. 
 

That said, I want more gas in the tank and swinging out of my shoes, nothing really happens so some change is needed. 
 

Sounds like you want me to adress with less shaft lean essentially? Well that would help how said pro want me to grip the club, they want my right hand so weak its almost on top of the grip vs on the side. 

[PedronNiall]

7 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Thanks for the answer. 
 

I just want to point out here that all of this ”resistance to change”, isnt just me. I took the advice to search for a professional, took one of the more expensive ones because it had alot if ”we measure you for a swing that fits you” thing, more or less principe of what Mike Adams and Terry Rowles teaches. 
 

I asked about the wrists, arms folding etc and they said it was no biggie, basicly its my patter to fold a little, cup a little etc. I was expecting to be shaped more ”like a traditional pro swing” but was told every swing can be found on tour. Some things sounds crazy and other things make sense, the only thing that difference for you and me is that I think some of the pros with quirks in their swings, are pros because they dont try to solve quirks in their swing. 
 

That said, I want more gas in the tank and swinging out of my shoes, nothing really happens so some change is needed. 
 

Sounds like you want me to adress with less shaft lean essentially? Well that would help how said pro want me to grip the club, they want my right hand so weak its almost on top of the grip vs on the side. 

 

Yes, the main thing is to get more neutral in your setup. That extra bit of shaft lean at address isn't helping you when it comes to all of the breakdowns and overrun in your swing. You should be able to feel an immediate difference in your balance when moving into a more neutral position and feel quite a bit more stable. 

 

While that instructor is correct that you can find "everything" on tour, the ones who make it have outsized levels of talent and time to keep their "everything" in check and even they have days or weeks where it falls apart. A disadvantage men have in golf is that we often can use our strength to overcome bad mechanics so we build them in instead of fixing them the way a woman or junior playing to the same level would have to. 

 

We recently had an entire thread where someone hypothesized quirks being necessary for elite swings. That is very much not the case and elite swings that have them are elite in spite of the quirks not because of them. 

 

If your goal were to build the best machine/system to do a job would you follow a blueprint with extra built-in points of failure? Would you keep building around a point of failure and throw in even more complexities to offset it or stop assembly to correct it? 

 

You're the one paying for the lessons. If you're fine with wherever they lead you then go that route. I'd find better value in being clear that my goal is being able to create speed by working on instilling the mechanics that make that as straightforward as possible and they need to be on board with the same or let me know otherwise. Know your goal going into lessons and choose someone who is able to be clear they understand it and on board with getting you there. 

[NittanyCPA]

On 1/21/2025 at 12:18 PM, PedronNiall said:

 

Chasing Knapp or Hovland or anyone else's look or using what they get away with as a reason to ignore truths about your swing faults is an exercise in madness. Understand one thing: you've been given very clear, concise bits of info in a prior thread as well as a bit more now as to how to get a more efficient swing that's capable of producing more speed yet you continue to talk about what you want to do or how you'd like to look or what pro golfer gets away with what in their swing that they get to practice 40 hours a week. 

 

You've now gone months since someone very kindly went out of their way to give you some insights ignoring the truth that your swing overrun is a result of poor fundamentals and not you being an outlier for flexibility and talent like Knapp. Your swing may be repeatable enough to hit fairways and greens at the rate you mentioned but it has peaked. If you continue to employ it as is your best case scenario is stagnation until time catches up and you no longer have the strength and reflexes to overcome all the bad that's going on.

 

If you want more speed then you need to make your swing as efficient as possible. When you learn to do that I promise you'll laugh at yourself for all the time you wasted chasing it the wrong way. Ask me how I know. 

 

Ignore what's already been shared with you and keep lusting after pipe dreams, looks, and feels at your own peril.

 

Mic drop right there.

[Brokensticks]

3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Yes, the main thing is to get more neutral in your setup. That extra bit of shaft lean at address isn't helping you when it comes to all of the breakdowns and overrun in your swing. You should be able to feel an immediate difference in your balance when moving into a more neutral position and feel quite a bit more stable. 

 

While that instructor is correct that you can find "everything" on tour, the ones who make it have outsized levels of talent and time to keep their "everything" in check and even they have days or weeks where it falls apart. A disadvantage men have in golf is that we often can use our strength to overcome bad mechanics so we build them in instead of fixing them the way a woman or junior playing to the same level would have to. 

 

We recently had an entire thread where someone hypothesized quirks being necessary for elite swings. That is very much not the case and elite swings that have them are elite in spite of the quirks not because of them. 

 

If your goal were to build the best machine/system to do a job would you follow a blueprint with extra built-in points of failure? Would you keep building around a point of failure and throw in even more complexities to offset it or stop assembly to correct it? 

 

You're the one paying for the lessons. If you're fine with wherever they lead you then go that route. I'd find better value in being clear that my goal is being able to create speed by working on instilling the mechanics that make that as straightforward as possible and they need to be on board with the same or let me know otherwise. Know your goal going into lessons and choose someone who is able to be clear they understand it and on board with getting you there. 

I was very honest going into the lessons and unfortunately I got myself a package deal. I told them basicly what I said here, I want a crazy amount of speed and dont give a s*** if it raises my hcp 10 points. 
 

They started talking about the process, archetypes like Terry/Mike and I was measured up. Weaker grip, trail elbow working more away from target (think rory setup basicly but right hand so weak I see two knuckles) and I was kinda shocked, lift straight up and slam down, if arms bend, across the line, wrist cupping, if everything squares at impact it was suppose to be most natural, best etc

 

Then things gets broken down to details and I dont see the whole picture, concept was more or less lift arms, slam them down as fast as you can. Only on the second lesson it was more straight up instead of around me and more closed chest so the club doesnt exit low left. They try to have me extending lead arm at impact but it doesnt really happen, their guess is its because I pull with left shoulder so they try to shut the lower body off.
 

I think they have a spectrum with the archetypes and if Im within those, they let it happen as naturally as possible with the ”lift up, slam down” if Im making sense here. 

 

I know my sequence is wack. I know my pressure shift is too late but its not something that has been adressed directly, but more like indirectly by the ”lift arms up to the ceiling” instead of ”you are pulling them around like this and its wrong”. At that time I checked and straightened the wrist and I was told not to do it.

 

This whole coaching thing has kinda turned into a let down, felt like it maybe isnt for me and at the same time Ive had DMs that swears by the process. 
 

Atleast the coach and I agree now that my body is turning too early and it creates and empty, tensionless space for the arms to travel in and overrun. So we kinda making some progress I guess?

 

I was expecting alot more from being coached tbh. I feel like Im guessing things out loud instead of being crystal clear of my overall goals from the beginning. Maybe it would be great if I took 20 lessons but I cant afford thst either.  
 

 

Edited January 22 by Brokensticks

[KMeloney]

27 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

I told them basicly what I said here, I want a crazy amount of speed and dont give a s*** if it raises my hcp 10 points.

 

I was expecting alot more from being coached tbh. 

I don't think these two statements jive at all.

 

It's like saying that you want to be able to ski as fast as you can and don't care if you crash and kill yourself. How could you fault the coaching if they told you to point your skis directly down the mountain, crouch, and not turn?