Stuck / steep / narrow...

[GoGoErky]

Just now, jaffabell said:

I see many things from that angle that I hate 😅

 

So could it be that i'm not getting my weight back in to my trail heel at the end of backswing? I have zoomed in and I think I can see a tiny gap under my right heel, where in theory my right heel should be fully planted with loads of pressure at that point yeah? Maybe its me still keeping weight on toes too much.

 

I will say I was trying to get taller on the backswing, and maybe by doing so I have early extended on backswing?

 

My closed clubface and overrun at the top is a frustration to me, I don't even have too strong a grip. When doing slow swings I often find that my right heel pad comes off the grip, and clubface strong. I'm wondering if I am getting too much radial at the top which is causing this issue (which may also be stopping me from keeping that trail arm extended and wider)

Your hips are working in the opposite direction they are supposed to.

 

The right hip should be moving back and around in the backswing, the left hip comes forward as a result. In your swing you’re doing the opposite. You’re moving your left hip forward and not getting the right hip back. 

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, jaffabell said:

Sorry no I was meaning getting a lob wedge and standing on it, with it under my right heel. Goal is to try keep it there till after impact. It didn't work, so my right heel and hip are firing to compensate for something 

I'm singling out this comment as this overall concept and all the good information provided by the unholy trinity (@iacas, @MonteScheinblum, and @virtuoso) is the crux of everything. You've tried several tips/cheats to make it work, it's been illustrated what is supposed to happen, and you're still *wildly* out of sync with the lower body to the point that IMO this will never change until you slow way way down and relearn how you move and sequence your pelvis. Your right side is firing so aggressively through impact (pirouetting as @virtuoso aptly described) that it's clear at the core you simply don't have a complete concept of what you're supposed to be doing down there yet. Until you can get your head around it, full swings just simply aren't going to work yet. In the (roughly) correct sequence of...

1) Shifting pressure back early (P1 -> P2) 
2) Deepening the trail hip -> (P1.5-2 -> P2.5-3) 
3) Using the deepening move to start shifting momentum and a bit of pressure back forward (P2.5 -> P3.5)
4) Using that momentum to bump yourself off your trail side to your front side (P3.5 - P4.5) 
5) Using the pressure from that bump to create rotation with your front leg (P5 to Impact)

...you're never really getting out of the blocks. Step 1 doesn't appear to be really happening, and as a result Step 2 doesn't happen at all and 3/4/5 as a result *can't* happen. This is exacerbated by your quick tempo as that places a premium on getting through these things in the correct sequence in time. 

Watch this clip of Rickie on loop and pay close attention to just his lower half. See if you can spot the steps listed above (they happen quick!). Also notice how there is virtually *zero* right leg driven movements in the downswing, it's 99% left leg driven. With minimal exceptions you basically have to think about it this way; the back leg's ONLY job in the golf swing is to create the correct rotation in the first half of the backswing (steps 1-3 above). After that the back leg is done and your conscious effort needs to shift solely and completely to what the front leg then needs to do from steps 3-5. For all intents and purposes your back leg no longer exists at this point. No power is coming from it, very little pressure should be on it (and what little is rapidily decreases coming down) and critically *zero* rotation comes from it. The back leg is just there for moral support, hah. 

Attempting to do this at full speed will likely be impossible, it's a completely different movement pattern that has to be ingrained slowly and integrated into very small swings. The urge to speed up will hurt you indirect proportion to how quickly you want to do so. Hideki made a swing at the Sentry this year that is a perfect representation of exactly what your ceiling needs to be terms of swing size and speed until these ideas are ingrained. That swing followed the above steps verbatim as well. 

This will not be simple, it will take time and you won't do it correctly initially, or even after a few weeks. This is one of the steep parts of the golf swing learning curve where you have to become consciously aware of how you're moving your body in very narrow windows of time (hence why slow swings are mandatory) while also understanding the intent behind what you're trying to do before you even start moving. The back leg doesn't exist in the downswing, so any amount that it moves towards the ball means you have to go back to the steps above and get off of it earlier and earlier and earlier until it stops being a source of power in the downswing. 

[jaffabell]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

I'm singling out this comment as this overall concept and all the good information provided by the unholy trinity (@iacas, @MonteScheinblum, and @virtuoso) is the crux of everything. You've tried several tips/cheats to make it work, it's been illustrated what is supposed to happen, and you're still *wildly* out of sync with the lower body to the point that IMO this will never change until you slow way way down and relearn how you move and sequence your pelvis. Your right side is firing so aggressively through impact (pirouetting as @virtuoso aptly described) that it's clear at the core you simply don't have a complete concept of what you're supposed to be doing down there yet. Until you can get your head around it, full swings just simply aren't going to work yet. In the (roughly) correct sequence of...

1) Shifting pressure back early (P1 -> P2) 
2) Deepening the trail hip -> (P1.5-2 -> P2.5-3) 
3) Using the deepening move to start shifting momentum and a bit of pressure back forward (P2.5 -> P3.5)
4) Using that momentum to bump yourself off your trail side to your front side (P3.5 - P4.5) 
5) Using the pressure from that bump to create rotation with your front leg (P5 to Impact)

...you're never really getting out of the blocks. Step 1 doesn't appear to be really happening, and as a result Step 2 doesn't happen at all and 3/4/5 as a result *can't* happen. This is exacerbated by your quick tempo as that places a premium on getting through these things in the correct sequence in time. 

Watch this clip of Rickie on loop and pay close attention to just his lower half. See if you can spot the steps listed above (they happen quick!). Also notice how there is virtually *zero* right leg driven movements in the downswing, it's 99% left leg driven. With minimal exceptions you basically have to think about it this way; the back leg's ONLY job in the golf swing is to create the correct rotation in the first half of the backswing (steps 1-3 above). After that the back leg is done and your conscious effort needs to shift solely and completely to what the front leg then needs to do from steps 3-5. For all intents and purposes your back leg no longer exists at this point. No power is coming from it, very little pressure should be on it (and what little is rapidily decreases coming down) and critically *zero* rotation comes from it. The back leg is just there for moral support, hah. 

Attempting to do this at full speed will likely be impossible, it's a completely different movement pattern that has to be ingrained slowly and integrated into very small swings. The urge to speed up will hurt you indirect proportion to how quickly you want to do so. Hideki made a swing at the Sentry this year that is a perfect representation of exactly what your ceiling needs to be terms of swing size and speed until these ideas are ingrained. That swing followed the above steps verbatim as well. 

This will not be simple, it will take time and you won't do it correctly initially, or even after a few weeks. This is one of the steep parts of the golf swing learning curve where you have to become consciously aware of how you're moving your body in very narrow windows of time (hence why slow swings are mandatory) while also understanding the intent behind what you're trying to do before you even start moving. The back leg doesn't exist in the downswing, so any amount that it moves towards the ball means you have to go back to the steps above and get off of it earlier and earlier and earlier until it stops being a source of power in the downswing. 

That all makes perfect sense mate cheers.

 

It's interesting, making slow positional practice swings in a mirror look ok but as soon as you add some momentum and intention - boom! Totally different.

 

For those who get the trail hip back well and deeper - do you feel a distinct push back from the trail foot during the backswing to get that trail hip to get back and deep? I guess i'm looking for the correct feel.

 

I think I have been so focussed on not staying back on my trail foot recently that it has made me not get on to the trail or lead foot during any point of my swing, or not enough anyways! too much 50/50 and not enough of a shift.

 

At least now I know where my focus needs to be.

 

on a separate note - if I get that hip turn and weight shift better on the backswing, will that help me get space to get a better arm structure at the top, and help reduce that arm overrun?

 

So I suppose i'm asking - is my brain trying to compensate for lack of trail hip depth by making my arms go back further to try and get some speed? Causing that arm overrun and over bent trail arm? As my brain knows that if I don't get those arms to keep going back i'll just throw the club out more at the ball than I already do?

[TheDeanAbides]

18 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

That all makes perfect sense mate cheers.

 

It's interesting, making slow positional practice swings in a mirror look ok but as soon as you add some momentum and intention - boom! Totally different.

 

For those who get the trail hip back well and deeper - do you feel a distinct push back from the trail foot during the backswing to get that trail hip to get back and deep? I guess i'm looking for the correct feel.

 

 

 

You should feel like the little shift right at P1-P2 ish creates a stable base and the the correct hip movement will cement that right leg with pressure going down the inside of the leg and into around the right instep/heel. It's a powerful and stable position that encourages the pressure shift left. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, jaffabell said:

For those who get the trail hip back well and deeper - do you feel a distinct push back from the trail foot during the backswing to get that trail hip to get back and deep? I guess i'm looking for the correct feel.

 

Learn the feels from the proper mechanics. And they're gonna feel pretty strange for awhile.

 

 

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I'm singling out this comment as this overall concept and all the good information provided by the unholy trinity (@iacas, @MonteScheinblum, and @virtuoso) is the crux of everything. You've tried several tips/cheats to make it work, it's been illustrated what is supposed to happen, and you're still *wildly* out of sync with the lower body to the point that IMO this will never change until you slow way way down and relearn how you move and sequence your pelvis. Your right side is firing so aggressively through impact (pirouetting as @virtuoso aptly described) that it's clear at the core you simply don't have a complete concept of what you're supposed to be doing down there yet. Until you can get your head around it, full swings just simply aren't going to work yet. In the (roughly) correct sequence of...

1) Shifting pressure back early (P1 -> P2) 
2) Deepening the trail hip -> (P1.5-2 -> P2.5-3) 
3) Using the deepening move to start shifting momentum and a bit of pressure back forward (P2.5 -> P3.5)
4) Using that momentum to bump yourself off your trail side to your front side (P3.5 - P4.5) 
5) Using the pressure from that bump to create rotation with your front leg (P5 to Impact)

...you're never really getting out of the blocks. Step 1 doesn't appear to be really happening, and as a result Step 2 doesn't happen at all and 3/4/5 as a result *can't* happen. This is exacerbated by your quick tempo as that places a premium on getting through these things in the correct sequence in time. 

Watch this clip of Rickie on loop and pay close attention to just his lower half. See if you can spot the steps listed above (they happen quick!). Also notice how there is virtually *zero* right leg driven movements in the downswing, it's 99% left leg driven. With minimal exceptions you basically have to think about it this way; the back leg's ONLY job in the golf swing is to create the correct rotation in the first half of the backswing (steps 1-3 above). After that the back leg is done and your conscious effort needs to shift solely and completely to what the front leg then needs to do from steps 3-5. For all intents and purposes your back leg no longer exists at this point. No power is coming from it, very little pressure should be on it (and what little is rapidily decreases coming down) and critically *zero* rotation comes from it. The back leg is just there for moral support, hah. 

Attempting to do this at full speed will likely be impossible, it's a completely different movement pattern that has to be ingrained slowly and integrated into very small swings. The urge to speed up will hurt you indirect proportion to how quickly you want to do so. Hideki made a swing at the Sentry this year that is a perfect representation of exactly what your ceiling needs to be terms of swing size and speed until these ideas are ingrained. That swing followed the above steps verbatim as well. 

This will not be simple, it will take time and you won't do it correctly initially, or even after a few weeks. This is one of the steep parts of the golf swing learning curve where you have to become consciously aware of how you're moving your body in very narrow windows of time (hence why slow swings are mandatory) while also understanding the intent behind what you're trying to do before you even start moving. The back leg doesn't exist in the downswing, so any amount that it moves towards the ball means you have to go back to the steps above and get off of it earlier and earlier and earlier until it stops being a source of power in the downswing. 

 

Copy and paste that about ten times a week here.

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, jaffabell said:

That all makes perfect sense mate cheers.

 

It's interesting, making slow positional practice swings in a mirror look ok but as soon as you add some momentum and intention - boom! Totally different.

 

For those who get the trail hip back well and deeper - do you feel a distinct push back from the trail foot during the backswing to get that trail hip to get back and deep? I guess i'm looking for the correct feel.

 

I think I have been so focussed on not staying back on my trail foot recently that it has made me not get on to the trail or lead foot during any point of my swing, or not enough anyways! too much 50/50 and not enough of a shift.

 

At least now I know where my focus needs to be.

 

on a separate note - if I get that hip turn and weight shift better on the backswing, will that help me get space to get a better arm structure at the top, and help reduce that arm overrun?

 

So I suppose i'm asking - is my brain trying to compensate for lack of trail hip depth by making my arms go back further to try and get some speed? Causing that arm overrun and over bent trail arm? As my brain knows that if I don't get those arms to keep going back i'll just throw the club out more at the ball than I already do?

 

Everything that happens in the downswing rests on what you do to set the club. If you're set weakly going back with poor hip depth and poor wrist set it's not a surprise when you're slapping at the ball weakly instead of driving through it. Set yourself correctly and the power will happen with no need to try and Hulk out on the ball. From there, you can easily add power when you need to.

 

You should continue with the mirror work. It's straightforward to see if you've gotten the hip depth or not checking the reflection, and @TheDeanAbides gave you a good explanation of how it should feel when done correctly. The mirror will let you do it slowly over and over and check whether the hip depth is coming in as it should by P3. Also easy to work on better wrist set while doing so.

 

If you want the change to come in then get this part down. Didn't see you at speed but seems your tempo is pretty normal and a good tempo makes these things happen too quickly for you to consciously evaluate if the feel is right. You need to ingrain the proper movement and feel with slow, repeated reps. Our brains are very good and if you tell yours you want to hit the ball by moving in a certain way it will move you in that way once it knows what neurons to activate for that to happen. You literally have a program in your head when it comes to the swing. The more you refine that program the better your brain will execute it and the better your swing will be. The momentum and intention isn't what fails you when you start hitting balls at speed, it's a poor understanding inside your head of the best way to do what you're after. Each bad rep you put in makes it worse, each good rep makes it better, so decide which way you want to go.

 

 

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I'm singling out this comment as this overall concept and all the good information provided by the unholy trinity (@iacas, @MonteScheinblum, and @virtuoso)

All this time I thought that Monte was a holy man... 

[dpc]

To the OP, I'm not qualified to give any swing advice or feels, but I'd like to give you some assurance that the issues spoken about in this thread are not just another rabbit hole.  This is a necessary foundation IMO.  Once you get your hips motion closer to "standard" (that implies pressure shifting, also) every subsequent correction seems more effective in advancing the character of your swing.  Until then, everything feels like a bandaid or a compensating move.

Edited February 24 by dpc
typo

[jaffabell]

17 hours ago, dpc said:

To the OP, I'm not qualified to give any swing advice or feels, but I'd like to give you some assurance that the issues spoken about in this thread are not just another rabbit hole.  This is a necessary foundation IMO.  Once you get your hips motion closer to "standard" (that implies pressure shifting, also) every subsequent correction seems more effective in advancing the character of your swing.  Until then, everything feels like a bandaid or a compensating move.

Yeah i'm focussing on backswing for now - to get myself in a better position. I can see that i'm rotating hips straight away, with little wrist set. Its clear watching Monte's sequence for power that I have it all back to front.

 

Had a mess around in the kitchen last night doing his drill for the sequence of setting the wrist, then moving just arms to arm parallel and then turn torso to the top. It felt great, really solid and powerful with some tension to unload. Looking at my range videos it's clear i'm making a lazy fake turn, and have zero separation on the way down (you can see my who body moved down together).

 

I actually wonder how I hit it as far as I do with these mechanics! I used to be really long 10 years or so ago but never videoed my swing back then, so no idea if this move has just developed as I have played less (and got weaker and stiffer).

 

I also want to try get a face on video as I think i'm reverse pivoting a bit with this lazy turn 

[jaffabell]

Hi all, so I got some range time tonight- only 50 balls so not much chance to get a feel for things (takes me a while to get loose).

 

I tried really hard on the pelvis movements as discussed before, I know it's going to take time and loads of slow swings to even make a dent.

 

I am however concerned that I make too many reps and spend time grooving in a move that is doing me more harm than good, and by that I mean my backswing.

 

In an effort to reduce arm roll on the way back I seem to have grooved in a steep, lifting move. We know my right side of my pelvis doesn't get deep enough on the way back but I think my overall backswing structure is inhibiting that.

 

Look at my right arm on the still from tonight, compared to Ludvig. Obviously he's a totally different build to me but look how much higher his right arm is at the top than mine, he is so much wider. My right elbow is completely pinned to my chest, I have no room to do anything in transition from there.

 

I will post a video from tonight too. I was focused on that shift right but from left arm parallel to top of backswing it just gets narrow and steep, it feels so weak. 

 

Again I know this will take time to change those neurons and feels but I'm thinking that I have no chance with my current arm structure on the way back and at the top...

 

 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Hi all, so I got some range time tonight- only 50 balls so not much chance to get a feel for things (takes me a while to get loose).

 

I tried really hard on the pelvis movements as discussed before, I know it's going to take time and loads of slow swings to even make a dent.

 

I am however concerned that I make too many reps and spend time grooving in a move that is doing me more harm than good, and by that I mean my backswing.

 

In an effort to reduce arm roll on the way back I seem to have grooved in a steep, lifting move. We know my right side of my pelvis doesn't get deep enough on the way back but I think my overall backswing structure is inhibiting that.

 

Look at my right arm on the still from tonight, compared to Ludvig. Obviously he's a totally different build to me but look how much higher his right arm is at the top than mine, he is so much wider. My right elbow is completely pinned to my chest, I have no room to do anything in transition from there.

 

I will post a video from tonight too. I was focused on that shift right but from left arm parallel to top of backswing it just gets narrow and steep, it feels so weak. 

 

Again I know this will take time to change those neurons and feels but I'm thinking that I have no chance with my current arm structure on the way back and at the top...

 

 

You have to look at what you’re doing to get there. You’re wrists, your arm structure at p2 and p3. If you’re not in good positions there it’s going to be hard to get in a good one at p4

[jaffabell]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

You have to look at what you’re doing to get there. You’re wrists, your arm structure at p2 and p3. If you’re not in good positions there it’s going to be hard to get in a good one at p4

Yep that's my worry, I have become lifty and narrow from P2 onwards. No depth, and that right arm is totally pinned to my side.

 

I would really welcome any drills or feels to get deeper and wider, with arms as well as pelvis. Any good videos on this on YouTube? 

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

You’re lacking vertical hinge in your wrists early. And then set at the top and bow your lead wrist at the top.

 

also bending the right arm a lot and early.

 

Think 45° hinge of the wrist with a short upper body turn to get the club on the toe line. Try to keep the right arm straight longer. Work to get 90° above between club and left arm at p3 and then start hitting balls from there for a bit. Same with hitting balls from p2

[GoGoErky]

44 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Yep that's my worry, I have become lifty and narrow from P2 onwards. No depth, and that right arm is totally pinned to my side.

 

I would really welcome any drills or feels to get deeper and wider, with arms as well as pelvis. Any good videos on this on YouTube? 

 

 

 

Monte has a video on IG about the right arm and getting wide, I can’t find it at the moment. Once I do I’ll post it

[jaffabell]

26 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Monte has a video on IG about the right arm and getting wide, I can’t find it at the moment. Once I do I’ll post it

Appreciate that bud 😊

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, jaffabell said:

Hi all, so I got some range time tonight- only 50 balls so not much chance to get a feel for things (takes me a while to get loose).

 

I tried really hard on the pelvis movements as discussed before, I know it's going to take time and loads of slow swings to even make a dent.

 

I am however concerned that I make too many reps and spend time grooving in a move that is doing me more harm than good, and by that I mean my backswing.

 

In an effort to reduce arm roll on the way back I seem to have grooved in a steep, lifting move. We know my right side of my pelvis doesn't get deep enough on the way back but I think my overall backswing structure is inhibiting that.

 

Look at my right arm on the still from tonight, compared to Ludvig. Obviously he's a totally different build to me but look how much higher his right arm is at the top than mine, he is so much wider. My right elbow is completely pinned to my chest, I have no room to do anything in transition from there.

 

I will post a video from tonight too. I was focused on that shift right but from left arm parallel to top of backswing it just gets narrow and steep, it feels so weak. 

 

Again I know this will take time to change those neurons and feels but I'm thinking that I have no chance with my current arm structure on the way back and at the top...

 

 

Wait, you think your right arm looks pinned because you aren't wide enough? Your right arm looks pinned because your left arm is unpinned. Ludvig has left arm pinned and right arm unpinned....so the reverse. That's why it looks like he has more width and depth.

[iacas]

Still not loving the pelvis stuff, but… I'm not sure what you think your priority piece is right now.

[MK7Golf21]

You are right in that you are lacking depth at the top of the swing. Butt of the club would be in a better position closer to your heel vs mid foot.

 

 

 

 

I think it is starting here. You have some feel/thought going on that makes you want to hinge the club way out in front of you and then you kind of just fold the right arm in front of you. Try to get clubhead on toe line at club parallel and then get butt of club toward heels at the top with the turn. 

 

 

 

 

I'll also add your body angles (shoulders and hips) look a bit steep at the top. Basically, everything is in a steep position at the top (body angles, club/hands without any depth). Can always tell that because the rear hip will get super high and extended early. Then you maintain that steepness into the downswing. Basically, you need to shallow out the body angles on backswing and get club deeper but that is just my 2 cents. I'd try to just the club on toeline at club parallel and then more depth towards heels at top, then see how to body reacts to those movements. It could shallow it out automatically.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by MK7Golf21

[virtuoso]

Are you right eye dominant?

[virtuoso]

See pm

[jaffabell]

3 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

You are right in that you are lacking depth at the top of the swing. Butt of the club would be in a better position closer to your heel vs mid foot.

 

 

 

 

I think it is starting here. You have some feel/thought going on that makes you want to hinge the club way out in front of you and then you kind of just fold the right arm in front of you. Try to get clubhead on toe line at club parallel and then get butt of club toward heels at the top with the turn. 

 

 

 

 

I'll also add your body angles (shoulders and hips) look a bit steep at the top. Basically, everything is in a steep position at the top (body angles, club/hands without any depth). Can always tell that because the rear hip will get super high and extended early. Then you maintain that steepness into the downswing. Basically, you need to shallow out the body angles on backswing and get club deeper but that is just my 2 cents. I'd try to just the club on toeline at club parallel and then more depth towards heels at top, then see how to body reacts to those movements. It could shallow it out automatically.

 

 

 

 

Yeah thats exactly my thoughts after reviewing the video from last night.

 

Going back 6 months and beyond, I was a bit inside with my arms rolling. I was still narrow, and ended up with similar issues but I seem to have drilled in some incorrect positions and feels without realising. I couldn't believe where my hands were going on the backswing.

 

Interestingly I tried some slow backswings in the mirror late last night, some sort of straight arm backswings with some earlier hinge. With more of a turn feeling that a lift. it felt so strange, tight... but looked ideal in a static top of backswing position. Right arm less than 90 degrees, good width, clubface neutral etc... but wow it felt like hard work haha! 

 

So I know I need to get my pelvis moving better as Iacas and others have mentioned, but its clear to me now that I am fighting a losing battle with my backswing movements. If I can get the sequence better to P2, I in theory will get my pelvis deeper naturally - rather than just using my arms to lift the club. If i'm deeper at the top, and wider, my brain will allow my pelvis to move better (or have a better chance) than it is now - as my pelvis is compensating for my steepness and path on the way down eh?

[jaffabell]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Are you right eye dominant?

So from my perspective, looking forwards, I am left eye dominant. I am right handed but virtually blind in my right eye - so majority of my vision is in my left eye (as I look forward)

Edited February 27 by jaffabell
.

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, jaffabell said:

So from my perspective, looking forwards, I am left eye dominant. I am right handed but virtually blind in my right eye - so majority of my vision is in my left eye (as I look forward)

That will make the changes easier.

[jaffabell]

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

That will make the changes easier.

Some good news thank god haha 🙂 replied to DM 🙂 

[MK7Golf21]

50 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

Yeah thats exactly my thoughts after reviewing the video from last night.

 

Going back 6 months and beyond, I was a bit inside with my arms rolling. I was still narrow, and ended up with similar issues but I seem to have drilled in some incorrect positions and feels without realising. I couldn't believe where my hands were going on the backswing.

 

Interestingly I tried some slow backswings in the mirror late last night, some sort of straight arm backswings with some earlier hinge. With more of a turn feeling that a lift. it felt so strange, tight... but looked ideal in a static top of backswing position. Right arm less than 90 degrees, good width, clubface neutral etc... but wow it felt like hard work haha! 

 

So I know I need to get my pelvis moving better as Iacas and others have mentioned, but its clear to me now that I am fighting a losing battle with my backswing movements. If I can get the sequence better to P2, I in theory will get my pelvis deeper naturally - rather than just using my arms to lift the club. If i'm deeper at the top, and wider, my brain will allow my pelvis to move better (or have a better chance) than it is now - as my pelvis is compensating for my steepness and path on the way down eh?

 

nice. I've only looked at the last page of this thread so I haven't seen any earlier swings. I will say it's very easy to overbend the right elbow and get narrow if is stays pinned to body. Most guys trying to swing like Hogan run into this issue.

 

If you got some air under your right upper arm like Adam Scott at the top, it makes it so much easier to not do that.. I know of one drill to put a headcover under right upper arm and let it fall out at the top of swing before swinging down. This will get you connected in takeaway etc. but then allow the right elbow to come off the body at the top when the headcover falls out. A glove might stick to your body/not fall out so I wouldn't use that.

Edited February 27 by MK7Golf21

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I'll also add your body angles (shoulders and hips) look a bit steep at the top. Basically, everything is in a steep position at the top (body angles, club/hands without any depth). Can always tell that because the rear hip will get super high and extended early. Then you maintain that steepness into the downswing. Basically, you need to shallow out the body angles on backswing and get club deeper but that is just my 2 cents. 

Respectfully I think you're seeing the problem but misdiagnosing it, and all this talk about backswing depth/steepness etc is missing the fact that:



There is *no* place you can put your hands/arms in the backswing that will change the fact that the right side coming *this* far forward in the downswing leaves no room for anything to go anywhere but over the top and steep. With this hip action, the flatter/deeper the swing is in the backswing the more it will likely loop over the top. The right leg is literally a tree blocking the road here. 

@jaffabell pointing back at what I posted above about lower body sequencing, I want to re-emphasize how far off you are from that here. After all that has been said about it, and the fact that you said:
 

Quote

I tried really hard on the pelvis movements as discussed before...

...to have early extension this severe still means IMO you will very likely have to focus directly on it in order for anything to change. Unfortunately if you had said "I haven't focused on any of the pelvic stuff yet" I would have believed you based on looking at this current swing. You don't appear to have any correct instincts for how to correctly fire your lower body in the downswing and are still relying on whatever feels intuitive to you now so I don't believe any amount of futzing around with your backswing is going to yield much. You're still completely stacked on your back leg to start the downswing, and thus are extremely late in shifting your pressure which is trying to happen at the same time as your hands/arms start down:



And the necessary movement/force/clearing needed from your front leg here is completely absent as you just sag towards the ball and thrust forwards. This pattern will completely bork any attempts you make at crafting a better backswing, and said backswing will not magically correct this. 

Edited February 27 by Valtiel

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Respectfully I think you're seeing the problem but misdiagnosing it, and all this talk about backswing depth/steepness etc is missing the fact that:



There is *no* place you can put your hands/arms in the backswing that will change the fact that the right side coming *this* far forward in the downswing leaves no room for anything to go anywhere but over the top and steep. With this hip action, the flatter/deeper the swing is in the backswing the more it will likely loop over the top. The right leg is literally a tree blocking the road here. 

@jaffabell pointing back at what I posted above about lower body sequencing, I want to re-emphasize how far off you are from that here. After all that has been said about it, and the fact that you said:
 

...to have early extension this severe still means IMO you will very likely have to focus directly on it in order for anything to change. Unfortunately if you had said "I haven't focused on any of the pelvic stuff yet" I would have believed you based on looking at this current swing. You don't appear to have any correct instincts for how to correctly fire your lower body in the downswing and are still relying on whatever feels intuitive to you now so I don't believe any amount of futzing around with your backswing is going to yield much. You're still completely stacked on your back leg to start the downswing, and thus are extremely late in shifting your pressure which is trying to happen at the same time as your hands/arms start down:



And the necessary movement/force/clearing needed from your front leg here is completely absent as you just sag towards the ball and thrust forwards. This pattern will completely bork any attempts you make at crafting a better backswing, and said backswing will not magically correct this. 

I get what you are saying, very well could work. To me it’s basically which one do you want to fix first. 
 

I like to approach things by putting the arm structure in a good position first and see how the body reacts because that is easiest for me. To my point being in those positions at the top, he has to throw his right leg out and stand up to shallow or everything would crash into the ground. To your point he will most likely still have that lower body EE pattern and need to work on it. 

[Valtiel]

40 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I get what you are saying, very well could work. To me it’s basically which one do you want to fix first. 
 

I like to approach things by putting the arm structure in a good position first and see how the body reacts because that is easiest for me. To my point being in those positions at the top, he has to throw his right leg out and stand up to shallow or everything would crash into the ground. To your point he will most likely still have that lower body EE pattern and need to work on it. 

Agreed. Personally I was able to make changes with your approach back in the day, but I was able to significantly reduce EE pretty quickly as well. My concern is that his EE is worse than mine, and it didn't change at all after some initial effort. 

His hand position is actually slightly deeper than someone like Koepka's for example:

 

And it shows the importance of driving correctly with the lead side coming down. @jaffabell this is a good visual example of the difference in lower body action if you look very closely at your legs vs. his. Koepka is a little bit of an outlier in how quiet he keeps his back leg, but critically he's doing the same basic move that 99% of your pros do which is a version of "front leg does the stuff in the downswing, bag leg is passive". 

Edited February 27 by Valtiel

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Agreed. Personally I was able to make changes with your approach back in the day, but I was able to significantly reduce EE pretty quickly as well. My concern is that his EE is worse than mine, and it didn't change at all after some initial effort. 

His hand position is actually slightly deeper than someone like Koepka's for example:

 

And it shows the importance of driving correctly with the lead side coming down. @jaffabell this is a good visual example of the difference in lower body action if you look very closely at your legs vs. his. Koepka is a little bit of an outlier in how quiet he keeps his back leg, but critically he's doing the same basic move that 99% of your pros do which is a version of "front leg does the stuff in the downswing, bag leg is passive". 

I agree, definitely need to do some body work. If he can pull off that Keopka move on the downswing, I will be asking him for tips… lol

[MK7Golf21]

Had time to go back and read the first page of this thread. Your backswing was a bit better on the first page and I agree with all the advice you received for working on the lower body/stance and I like that tip Monte gave about the headcover behind you, I actually remember liking that comment.

 

I stand by what I told you about the arm stuff in your "new" backswing you put together though, it seems like you didn't post the work you did with the lower body but worked on getting the arms less deep by accident. I would work on the tips you got from Instructors about your lower body on the first page and post the results you are getting from that instead of just moving on if it's not working. Do it super slow would be my advice as well.