OEM’s producing Clone clubs and shafts…how do you feel about it?

[BCC1898]

35 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

 

I didn't say it violated a law. If you read my post I said "I wonder how it’s even legal". And I still wonder, although being legal and acting with integrity aren't the same thing. If they had created this new, different head without all the tech (even though it looks almost identical) and called it the Rogue Basic (tm) then sure, that's fair game, but they didn't. And IMO they did it specifically to deceive the poor sap in the golf store or on eBay who doesn't know better and who trusts the OEM name. Defend it all you want but that doesn't make it any less gross. 

Again…the average consumer would have NO idea what you’re talking about.  They want a driver that isn’t $650, and this one isn’t.
 

The only person it affects is like in this case, where someone with equipment knowledge thought they were getting something they’re not because they failed to do research.  

[BallerNate]

For the people saying I “didn’t do my research”, here are the facts:

 

1) I owned a Rogue ST Max for 1.5 yrs

 

2) I’ve bought 8 Drivers, 6 Fairways, and 6 Hybrids from Callaway over the last 4yrs

 

3) I’ve bought more equipment through Golf Town than probably 99% of their customers

 

4) I went to my favourite store, and saw my favourite Driver over the last 4yrs on sale that was designed to look IDENTICAL to the OG Rogue ST Max

 

5) It was selling for $399.99 CAD, which is approximately the price of 3yr old “Premium” Drivers

 

6) I didn’t think I had to do additional research, because I didn’t know that my previously favourite Woods manufacturer makes clones that don’t include technology that made the club great…and I didn’t think my favourite store would sell clones alongside the Elyte and A.I. Smoke

 

So yes, I research Golf equipment ALL THE TIME…and even I was fooled.

 

Let’s keep it real, if Callaway wanted to sell to the entry-level market, and they created a club with a different name and design, no one would have a problem with it. The problem is that they designed an entry level club with the image and name of arguably the best Driver in the last 5 yrs…except that’s not what it is. That’s SHADY and SNEAKY…period!!

 

Edited February 5 by BallerNate

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

For the people saying I “didn’t do my research”, here are the facts:

 

1) I owned a Rogue ST Max for 1.5 yrs

 

2) I’ve bought 8 Drivers, 6 Fairways, and 6 Hybrids from Callaway over the last 4yrs

 

3) I’ve bought more equipment through Golf Town than probably 99% of their customers

 

4) I went to my favourite store, and saw my favourite Driver over the last 4yrs on sale that was designed to look IDENTICAL to the OG Rogue ST Max

 

5) It was selling for $399.99 CAD, which is approximately the price of 3yr old “Premium” Drivers

 

6) I didn’t think I had to do additional research, because I didn’t know that my previously favourite Woods manufacturer makes clones that don’t include technology that made the club great…and I didn’t think my favourite store would sell clones alongside the Elyte and A.I. Smoke

 

So yes, I research Golf equipment ALL THE TIME…and even I was fooled.

 

Let’s keep it real, if Callaway wanted to sell to the entry-level market, and they created a club with a different name and design, no one would have a problem with it. The problem is that they designed an entry level club with the image and name of arguably the best Driver in the last 5 yrs…except that’s not what it is. That’s SHADY and SNEAKY…period!!

 

The you didn’t do your research argument has already been refuted.  They are just trying to get you stirred up.  
 

You can ignore them like when they ignore being called out for saying things that aren’t true.

[BCC1898]

You both can cry more over something that is commonplace in the market. I don’t know what to tell you at this point. 

[BallerNate]

9 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

The you didn’t do your research argument has already been refuted.  They are just trying to get you stirred up.  
 

You can ignore them like when they ignore being called out for saying things that aren’t true.

Yeah, you’re right.

 

Because where are you supposed to “research” when Callaway doesn’t have the Rogue ST clone on their website, threads aren’t allowed in the main Equipment section of the Forum, and retailers don’t have proper disclosure and marketing about these clones OEM’s are manufacturing?

[Mitchell]

Calling a product that looks similar, not identical, and is not purported by manufacturer (owner of said branding/intellectual property) to be the same, a clone is more disingenuous than the alleged affront against your personal sensibilities, just express your opinion with your wallet. You’re entitled to feel however you like about it, not criticizing your opinion, just appears you’re spending more time and energy than was wasted by this issue. 

Edited February 5 by Mitchell

[BallerNate]

39 minutes ago, Mitchell said:

Calling a product that looks similar, not identical, and is not purported by manufacturer (owner of said branding/intellectual property) to be the same, a clone is more disingenuous than the alleged affront against your personal sensibilities, just express your opinion with your wallet. You’re entitled to feel however you like about it, not criticizing your opinion, just appears you’re spending more time and energy than was wasted by this issue. 

I started this thread to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s to re-release stripped down versions of previous versions of clubs to as many people as I could on WRX that didn’t know about it (like me).

 

And a few people on this thread said they didn’t know, and it was an opportunity to learn something new.

 

It would’ve reached a lot more people if it were allowed to stay in the Equipment thread, but if it helped at least 1 person, than I haven’t wasted my time.

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

I started this thread to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s to re-release stripped down versions of previous versions of clubs to as many people as I could on WRX that didn’t know about it (like me).

 

And a few people on this thread said they didn’t know, and it was an opportunity to learn something new.

 

It would’ve reached a lot more people if it were allowed to stay in the Equipment thread, but if it helped at least 1 person, than I haven’t wasted my time.

Which you did help.

 

fyi here is the search for rogue st max.  Notice both versions pop up and are the same price.  Not many people would think to look closer to see if one has jailbreak and one doesn’t.

 

 

 

[PuffyC]

2 hours ago, BallerNate said:

I started this thread to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s to re-release stripped down versions of previous versions of clubs to as many people as I could on WRX that didn’t know about it (like me).

Well I appreciate it because I didn’t know and I’ve been playing for 40 years and I research and buy new clubs yearly. I’d bet my next paycheck it wouldn’t even occur to anyone I play with that major OEMs would pull shady af stuff like this either. Guess it’s just a sign of the times that some people seem to think this sort of thing is OK.

[BallerNate]

9 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

Well I appreciate it because I didn’t know and I’ve been playing for 40 years and I research and buy new clubs yearly. I’d bet my next paycheck it wouldn’t even occur to anyone I play with that major OEMs would pull shady af stuff like this either. Guess it’s just a sign of the times that some people seem to think this sort of thing is OK.

Awesome...my pleasure man!!

 

The last week has been a huge eye-opener for me too, and I'm glad I was able to help a few people not fall into the same trap.

[CDLgolf]

3 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Which you did help.

 

fyi here is the search for rogue st max.  Notice both versions pop up and are the same price.  Not many people would think to look closer to see if one has jailbreak and one doesn’t.

 

 

 

 

This is the part that I don't understand.  You can get the original with all the "tech" or the re release model with no "tech" for the same price.

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, CDLgolf said:

 

This is the part that I don't understand.  You can get the original with all the "tech" or the re release model with no "tech" for the same price.

Right.  Exactly what makes it confusing.
 

But there are two versions, that visually looks nearly the same,  one with  inferior tech, being sold for the same retail price.  

[Anser3]

17 hours ago, BallerNate said:

I started this thread to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s to re-release stripped down versions of previous versions of clubs to as many people as I could on WRX that didn’t know about it (like me).

 

And a few people on this thread said they didn’t know, and it was an opportunity to learn something new.

 

It would’ve reached a lot more people if it were allowed to stay in the Equipment thread, but if it helped at least 1 person, than I haven’t wasted my time.

 

 

Agree with you 100% on this.  I don't even know why an OEM would do this.  It confuses the consumer.  If Golfer Joe tells his wife he would like the  Callaway Rogue Max driver for his birthday and he ends up with (either she buys or he buys by mistake) the watered-down version  (and maybe doesn't catch it right away) and realizes the driver doesn't perform quite how he wanted, he may stay away from Callaway clubs forever.    I get it that Callaway and others want something in the lower end for the consumer market that is less serious.  But name it something else. Use a different paint scheme.  Do something to easily differentiate it (different naming convention, color scheme, etc). 

 

 

 

  Golfwrx is 1% of the golfing world.  Most on here know (or think we know) far more about equipment than 95% of the golfing population. I do my diligence when buying clubs.  But not everyone does and that is ok.  usually it is because golf isn't as high on their scale of interests (nothing wrong with that).  

 

Clone clubs are made to look similar to clubs from OEM's with different brandings (Maltby designs and older Golfsmith designs were great performers who resembled OEM offerings).  Counterfeit clubs are whole other matter(that whole industry makes me sick).  And yes, this is a standard practice.  That doesn't make it right.

Edited February 6 by Anser3

[cardia10]

15 hours ago, BallerNate said:

I started this thread to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s to re-release stripped down versions of previous versions of clubs to as many people as I could on WRX that didn’t know about it (like me).

 

And a few people on this thread said they didn’t know, and it was an opportunity to learn something new.

 

It would’ve reached a lot more people if it were allowed to stay in the Equipment thread, but if it helped at least 1 person, than I haven’t wasted my time.

Is the original thread on the driver still in the Equipment forum? I'm sure it is buried, but I'd drag it up and use it instead of posting new. At least it will be at the top of the page again.

[Yanki01]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Is the original thread on the driver still in the Equipment forum? I'm sure it is buried, but I'd drag it up and use it instead of posting new. At least it will be at the top of the page again.

it started there, then the mods moved it for whatever reason. less eyes on the issue is my vote but they've yet to move it back there which is where it should be. 

[BCC1898]

15 minutes ago, Yanki01 said:

it started there, then the mods moved it for whatever reason. less eyes on the issue is my vote but they've yet to move it back there which is where it should be. 

Yes. The mods and the OEMs are definitely working together to keep this issue that effects 3 people from being uncovered. 🙄😂🙄😂

[BallerNate]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

Is the original thread on the driver still in the Equipment forum? I'm sure it is buried, but I'd drag it up and use it instead of posting new. At least it will be at the top of the page again.

 

34 minutes ago, Yanki01 said:

it started there, then the mods moved it for whatever reason. less eyes on the issue is my vote but they've yet to move it back there which is where it should be. 

Yeah, I started the thread in the Equipment section to raise awareness on this issue, and create discussion.

 

I worded it very carefully to make sure it wasn’t attacking or singling out Callaway, and also mentioned stripped down re-makes by TaylorMade, Cobra, and Ventus.

 

But for whatever reason, this thread was moved to the “Deal or No Deal” section, which to me is more linked to BST disputes etc, than broader OEM and Equipment issues like this one.

 

Many people have expressed to the Moderators that this is an important issue that should be accessible to the highest number of people on WRX, but the Moderators have not listened to our requests unfortunately.

[JAM01]

Yes, this is pretty low down dirty. There’s nothing more to say. 

[radiman]

19 hours ago, BCC1898 said:

You both can cry more over something that is commonplace in the market. I don’t know what to tell you at this point. 

Dude, who hurt you?  I don't get it.  Common place or not, I don't understand how this could not be seen as a misleading and deceptive practice.  Just because the other kids are smoking doesn't mean you should.  And, the defense is that the customer is supposed to do their research?  This club is not listed on Callaway's site.  Hell, Callaway pulled the original listing for the Rogue ST Max.  But I get it.  A regular golfer who recognizes the Rogue name from a couple of years ago but isn't a gear head, or has a buddy who has a Rogue driver from a couple of years ago is supposed to cross reference pictures from the older product to ensure that this new one has jailbreak or any other marketing buzz words.  

 

No Rogue ST Max to be seen anywhere...

https://www.callawaygolf.com/rogue-st-family/rogue-st-drivers

 

Or, you can use a direct link to the page where information on the Rogue ST Max resided.  Now you get a 404 error.

https://www.callawaygolf.com/golf-clubs/drivers/drivers-2024-rogue-st-max.html

 

This driver is created by Callaway to look like a familiar product with the exact same name.  Signage aside, nowhere on the club is it branded to be a different model.  They spent a ton of money advertising the Rogue ST line to have certain features.  Created a product of the same name without the features, even pulled the information for the original version from their site.  But the consumer is supposed to be able to sleuth this all out?  They're utilizing the good will they created on a completely different product to move stock in this new driver.  And they're not the same thing.  And apparently not even close other than having the exact same name printed on it.  

 

THEN, to further complicate it, some of these places are still selling the original product for the same price.  You can buy the other Rogue ST models from Callaway for the same price.  Let's say someone was researching online to an extent.  They checked out the Rogue line, liked the price.  Goes to Dicks, Scheels, or insert other big box retailers.  The only one they see on the shelf is this thing, same price, same aesthetic and name.  They are supposed to see the 24 on the little sign above the rack and know that this is different?  Or, they'll trust that this identical looking driver is every bit as good as what they just read about online. 

 

I think people that are dissatisfied with Callaway's decision are well within their right.  No laws are broken (maybe) and that's cool.  Honestly though, I wouldn't be surprised that there is some gray area there with them still selling the original for the same price and a lawsuit could possibly go somewhere.  But, it doesn't mean that they aren't dirtying their reputation with people that are not impressed with their move.  As you can see in the couple of threads on it, there are more than a couple of people who view it as shady. 

[GwrxMod]

A reminder: "While debating and discussion are fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, or purposeless inflammatory posts."

 

Any further reports will result in warnings being issued. Keep it on topic and respectful...or find another topic to participate in.  

 

 

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, BallerNate said:

 

Yeah, I started the thread in the Equipment section to raise awareness on this issue, and create discussion.

 

I worded it very carefully to make sure it wasn’t attacking or singling out Callaway, and also mentioned stripped down re-makes by TaylorMade, Cobra, and Ventus.

 

But for whatever reason, this thread was moved to the “Deal or No Deal” section, which to me is more linked to BST disputes etc, than broader OEM and Equipment issues like this one.

 

Many people have expressed to the Moderators that this is an important issue that should be accessible to the highest number of people on WRX, but the Moderators have not listened to our requests unfortunately.

I guess I meant not a new thread on this different driver, but dredging up the old Rogue ST thread when it was released and just add to that. If Callaway is calling this the same driver, those comments on the original release thread should still be very relevant as it is OEM equipment still for sale.

[BallerNate]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

I guess I meant not a new thread on this different driver, but dredging up the old Rogue ST thread when it was released and just add to that. If Callaway is calling this the same driver, those comments on the original release thread should still be very relevant as it is OEM equipment still for sale.

Ah gotcha, I see what you’re saying.

 

Yeah, that’s not a bad idea…this is definitely a topic that’s directly related with the Rogue ST line for sure.

[jholz]

Isn't this just the "made for" shaft controversy all over again?

 

Caveat emptor and fools will always be parted from their money.

[JimMLINY]

An educated consumer is their worst customer.  Too bad there are a bunch of dummies with money to burn.

[JMB3]

5 hours ago, JimMLINY said:

An educated consumer is their worst customer.  Too bad there are a bunch of dummies with money to burn.

Most definitely the marketing strategy here.

 

I will never understand the blind defending of shady OEM practices.  Are we not all consumers?  Is this not something that should irk us as OEMs take money, knowing a certain segment of the population will be misinformed?

 

Companies in all sectors spend a boat load of money protecting their brands, filing lawsuits over competitors using similar colors or packaging.  They fight the best they can to ward off knock offs.  And yet, when the same company sells a nearly identical, stripped down version of a prior, successful driver, that’s just totally acceptable?

 

Callaway and others are counting on duping folks.  It’s the only reason to make the “Rogue ST Max” look like the Rogue ST.   And, as Nate has shown, it’s not just the weekend hacks who can get fooled—it’s even a WRXer WHO PLAYED THE OG ROGUE ST.  

 

Thanks, @BallerNate, for bringing this to everyone’s attention.  I’ve played Callaway products for 20 years, and I had no idea the Rogue ST and Mavrik drivers still listed on their website are cheap pieces of crap.  

[BallerNate]

2 hours ago, JMB3 said:

Most definitely the marketing strategy here.

 

I will never understand the blind defending of shady OEM practices.  Are we not all consumers?  Is this not something that should irk us as OEMs take money, knowing a certain segment of the population will be misinformed?

 

Companies in all sectors spend a boat load of money protecting their brands, filing lawsuits over competitors using similar colors or packaging.  They fight the best they can to ward off knock offs.  And yet, when the same company sells a nearly identical, stripped down version of a prior, successful driver, that’s just totally acceptable?

 

Callaway and others are counting on duping folks.  It’s the only reason to make the “Rogue ST Max” look like the Rogue ST.   And, as Nate has shown, it’s not just the weekend hacks who can get fooled—it’s even a WRXer WHO PLAYED THE OG ROGUE ST.  

 

Thanks, @BallerNate, for bringing this to everyone’s attention.  I’ve played Callaway products for 20 years, and I had no idea the Rogue ST and Mavrik drivers still listed on their website are cheap pieces of crap.  

I can’t take the credit.

 

@martymcfly started the first thread about the “Rogue ST Max” clone, and @mtp brought that thread to my attention when I first bought the clone.

 

Without them I might have hit the clone, or even waited until the Spring to test it side-by-side outdoors with my Paradym X Driver (and then I wouldn’t have been able to return it).

 

I had absolutely no idea that OEM’s did this until last week when I bought the “Rogue ST Max 24” clone.

 

Since then I’ve just been trying to raise awareness and warn others so they don’t fall into the same trap.

 

The whole thing makes me absolutely sick to my stomach, and it’s so sad that these threads are getting buried in the “Deal or No Deal” section by moderators. But then there’s some people that say, “Do your research”, “Buyer beware”, and are victim shaming.

 

So sickening all-round…Ugh!!! 🤮🤮🤮

[Puttersaurus Rex]

On 2/4/2025 at 2:03 PM, BallerNate said:

I’ve been on WRX, and visit and am active in many different sections of the Forum, and I have never heard of the “Deal or No Deal” section of the Forum whatsoever.

 

Counterpoint:

 

 

 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

4 hours ago, JMB3 said:

Most definitely the marketing strategy here.

 

I will never understand the blind defending of shady OEM practices.  Are we not all consumers?  Is this not something that should irk us as OEMs take money, knowing a certain segment of the population will be misinformed?

 

Companies in all sectors spend a boat load of money protecting their brands, filing lawsuits over competitors using similar colors or packaging.  They fight the best they can to ward off knock offs.  And yet, when the same company sells a nearly identical, stripped down version of a prior, successful driver, that’s just totally acceptable?

 

Callaway and others are counting on duping folks.  It’s the only reason to make the “Rogue ST Max” look like the Rogue ST.   And, as Nate has shown, it’s not just the weekend hacks who can get fooled—it’s even a WRXer WHO PLAYED THE OG ROGUE ST.  

 

Thanks, @BallerNate, for bringing this to everyone’s attention.  I’ve played Callaway products for 20 years, and I had no idea the Rogue ST and Mavrik drivers still listed on their website are cheap pieces of crap.  

 

Great post.  Thoughtful, and objective. 

 

Wish people would do the same in the Pre-Release threads instead of being judgemental about OEM "aesthetics" in comparison to marketing strategy.

[radiman]

4 hours ago, JMB3 said:

Most definitely the marketing strategy here.

 

I will never understand the blind defending of shady OEM practices.  Are we not all consumers?  Is this not something that should irk us as OEMs take money, knowing a certain segment of the population will be misinformed?

 

Companies in all sectors spend a boat load of money protecting their brands, filing lawsuits over competitors using similar colors or packaging.  They fight the best they can to ward off knock offs.  And yet, when the same company sells a nearly identical, stripped down version of a prior, successful driver, that’s just totally acceptable?

 

Callaway and others are counting on duping folks.  It’s the only reason to make the “Rogue ST Max” look like the Rogue ST.   And, as Nate has shown, it’s not just the weekend hacks who can get fooled—it’s even a WRXer WHO PLAYED THE OG ROGUE ST.  

 

Thanks, @BallerNate, for bringing this to everyone’s attention.  I’ve played Callaway products for 20 years, and I had no idea the Rogue ST and Mavrik drivers still listed on their website are cheap pieces of crap.  

Check out the reviews on the Mavrik 22 on Callaway's site.  Quite a few customers that had some pretty bad experiences with the quality of the club.  

[MickeyTankBank]

On 2/5/2025 at 2:26 PM, BallerNate said:

For the people saying I “didn’t do my research”, here are the facts:

 

1) I owned a Rogue ST Max for 1.5 yrs

 

2) I’ve bought 8 Drivers, 6 Fairways, and 6 Hybrids from Callaway over the last 4yrs

 

3) I’ve bought more equipment through Golf Town than probably 99% of their customers

 

4) I went to my favourite store, and saw my favourite Driver over the last 4yrs on sale that was designed to look IDENTICAL to the OG Rogue ST Max

 

5) It was selling for $399.99 CAD, which is approximately the price of 3yr old “Premium” Drivers

 

6) I didn’t think I had to do additional research, because I didn’t know that my previously favourite Woods manufacturer makes clones that don’t include technology that made the club great…and I didn’t think my favourite store would sell clones alongside the Elyte and A.I. Smoke

 

So yes, I research Golf equipment ALL THE TIME…and even I was fooled.

 

Let’s keep it real, if Callaway wanted to sell to the entry-level market, and they created a club with a different name and design, no one would have a problem with it. The problem is that they designed an entry level club with the image and name of arguably the best Driver in the last 5 yrs…except that’s not what it is. That’s SHADY and SNEAKY…period!!

 

 

Buying other clubs and buying from a certain store is not research. Also saying on #6 that you actually didn't do any research says you didn't do any research. 

 

It also doesn't look identical, there is no jailbreak on the 2024 version.

 

It really seems like you're taking this very personal. Posting the same thing 3 different times. Once in the thread that already exists on this topic. Another time in the "Callaway Woods 2025" thread. Now this one.

 

To me this thread is pointless since the other threads in here exists. You can also see in that thread, I figured out that it wasn't the same club pretty quick by actually doing a couple minutes of research. And I didn't even own an original Rogue for 1.5 years.