OEM’s producing Clone clubs and shafts…how do you feel about it?

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

Buying other clubs and buying from a certain store is not research. Also saying on #6 that you actually didn't do any research says you didn't do any research. 

 

It also doesn't look identical, there is no jailbreak on the 2024 version.

 

It really seems like you're taking this very personal. Posting the same thing 3 different times. Once in the thread that already exists on this topic. Another time in the "Callaway Woods 2025" thread. Now this one.

 

To me this thread is pointless since the other threads in here exists. You can also see in that thread, I figured out that it wasn't the same club pretty quick by actually doing a couple minutes of research. And I didn't even own an original Rogue for 1.5 years. 

The other side of that is multiple people have been informed in this very thread of the issue and know to be on the lookout.  Sharing information is what this community is about appreciated.

 

why do you care if it doesn’t apply to you?  

[MickeyTankBank]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

The other side of that is multiple people have been informed in this very thread of the issue and know to be on the lookout.  Sharing information is what this community is about appreciated.

 

why do you care if it doesn’t apply to you?  

 

If all these replies were in the other thread it would have served the purpose of informing people since it would have stayed at the top. They should be merged.

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, j4663535 said:

 

If all these replies were in the other thread it would have served the purpose of informing people since it would have stayed at the top. They should be merged.

Ah yes, the post police.

 

Maybe reach out and see if they are accepting applications to be a mod?

[BallerNate]

15 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

Buying other clubs and buying from a certain store is not research. Also saying on #6 that you actually didn't do any research says you didn't do any research. 

 

It also doesn't look identical, there is no jailbreak on the 2024 version.

 

It really seems like you're taking this very personal. Posting the same thing 3 different times. Once in the thread that already exists on this topic. Another time in the "Callaway Woods 2025" thread. Now this one.

 

To me this thread is pointless since the other threads in here exists. You can also see in that thread, I figured out that it wasn't the same club pretty quick by actually doing a couple minutes of research. And I didn't even own an original Rogue for 1.5 years. 

I started this thread in the Equipment section to create as much awareness as possible, and create discussion.

 

It was differentiated by the fact that it was not just about Callaway, or just about 1 club.

 

And I answered your question about research before…where are people supposed to research when the “Rogue ST Max 24” isn’t listed on Callaway’s website, many retailers are advertising this clone the same as the original version, and threads about OEM’s producing clones aren’t allowed in the Equipment section?

[MickeyTankBank]

7 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

I started this thread in the Equipment section to create as much awareness as possible, and create discussion.

 

It was differentiated by the fact that it was not just about Callaway, or just about 1 club.

 

And I answered your question about research before…where are people supposed to research when the “Rogue ST Max 24” isn’t listed on Callaway’s website, many retailers are advertising this clone the same as the original version, and threads about OEM’s producing clones aren’t allowed in the Equipment section?

 

Like I said, I was able to figure it out pretty quick with a little research:

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2035698-warning-psa-about-rogue-st-max-24-scam/?do=findComment&comment=25689121

[BallerNate]

Just now, j4663535 said:

 

Like I said, I was able to figure it out pretty quick with a little research:

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2035698-warning-psa-about-rogue-st-max-24-scam/?do=findComment&comment=25689121

We’ll agree to disagree.

 

I think OEM’s producing stripped down entry-level clubs that are designed to look almost identical to premium clubs, and are given the same name and image is extremely shady, and you don’t feel that way.

 

We’re each entitled to our opinions, and my belief is that this topic should be in the Equipment section to create as much awareness about this cloning practice by OEM’s as possible.

 

And you don’t. So there it is…I guess I’m not convincing you, and you’re definitely not convincing me.

[JMB3]

26 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

Buying other clubs and buying from a certain store is not research. Also saying on #6 that you actually didn't do any research says you didn't do any research. 

 

It also doesn't look identical, there is no jailbreak on the 2024 version.

 

It really seems like you're taking this very personal. Posting the same thing 3 different times. Once in the thread that already exists on this topic. Another time in the "Callaway Woods 2025" thread. Now this one.

 

To me this thread is pointless since the other threads in here exists. You can also see in that thread, I figured out that it wasn't the same club pretty quick by actually doing a couple minutes of research. And I didn't even own an original Rogue for 1.5 years. 

You are misstating his point 6.  If you are unaware of the practice of OEMs making watered-down versions of their own drivers, you would have no reason to “research” in the first place.
 

What you are suggesting is that he saw a product on the rack, and he should have gone home to search “is this a fake” before purchasing?  That is an absurd expectation to put on a consumer, especially when the entire point is most people do not know about this practice to begin with.  

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

Like I said, I was able to figure it out pretty quick with a little research:

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2035698-warning-psa-about-rogue-st-max-24-scam/?do=findComment&comment=25689121

Wait I thought you cared cause it belongs in the other thread??

 

maybe look at it this way.  He did do his research in the end and now sharing with the broader community.  He tried a different forum for a different audience to share the research.

 

we get it, it didn’t help you. So I ask again why you care?  Is it harming you?  Is it impacting you?

[JMB3]

48 minutes ago, radiman said:

Check out the reviews on the Mavrik 22 on Callaway's site.  Quite a few customers that had some pretty bad experiences with the quality of the club.  

Oh, wow, brutal.  And I LOVED the actual Mavrik driver.  

[MickeyTankBank]

Just now, BallerNate said:

We’ll agree to disagree.

 

I think OEM’s producing stripped down entry-level clubs that are designed to look almost identical to premium clubs, and are given the same name and image is extremely shady, and you don’t feel that way.

 

We’re each entitled to our opinions, and my belief is that this topic should be in the Equipment section to create as much awareness about this cloning practice by OEM’s as possible.

 

And you don’t. So there it is…I guess I’m not convincing you, and you’re definitely not convincing me.

 

My point is that you're made it seem like you can't figure out this is a newer cheaper version no matter what. It's possible to figure out what this club is if you do a little bit of looking around the internet and use some common sense. 

 

I'm sorry you got duped by this, but you did just grab this off the shelf and buy it without taking the time to do some research.

[MickeyTankBank]

9 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

You are misstating his point 6.  If you are unaware of the practice of OEMs making watered-down versions of their own drivers, you would have no reason to “research” in the first place.
 

What you are suggesting is that he saw a product on the rack, and he should have gone home to search “is this a fake” before purchasing?  That is an absurd expectation to put on a consumer, especially when the entire point is most people do not know about this practice to begin with.  

 

"Why is there a bunch of 4 year old clubs being sold brand new in the wrapper" is enough for me to wonder what's going on and to take a minute to figure it out. 

[radiman]

1 minute ago, j4663535 said:

 

My point is that you're made it seem like you can't figure out this is a newer cheaper version no matter what. It's possible to figure out what this club is if you do a little bit of looking around the internet and use some common sense. 

 

I'm sorry you got duped by this, but you did just grab this off the shelf and buy it without taking the time to do some research.

As I stated previously, Callaway doesn't have any information posted about this driver.  That would be where a buyer would probably start their research.  Considering Callaway has a long history of marketing the crap out of their tech.  They pulled the original Rogue ST Max driver page too.  So, where is there a good place to go research this?  From what I can tell, this forum is the only place where a comparison is being made.  

 

If the point is to make this as similar to the original aesthetically as they can (which they did a good job on), how is someone supposed to know they even need to dig further to see what the difference is.  It would seem to me the point is to capture the sale from a buyer who isn't going to do any digging.  See the name and it looks the same as their buddy's so they pull the trigger. 

 

Nate pulled the trigger, and then noticed it wasn't right after the fact after doing some research.  He was able to return the product and he's now made whole.  It doesn't make the practice less shady.  

 

If anything, maybe this discussion will hit the google machine algorithm so if someone tries to research this product in the future, they'll see this haha.  

 

 

[radiman]

2 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

"Why is there a bunch of 4 year old clubs being sold brand new in the wrapper" is enough for me to wonder what's going on and to take a minute to figure it out. 

And if this discussion wasn't happening here, then people who want to take a minute to figure it out will actually have a reference point if they dig deep enough haha.  

 

And, fwiw, closeout pricing on old product is a practice as old as the practice of releasing a new model every year.  

[BallerNate]

14 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

You are misstating his point 6.  If you are unaware of the practice of OEMs making watered-down versions of their own drivers, you would have no reason to “research” in the first place.
 

What you are suggesting is that he saw a product on the rack, and he should have gone home to search “is this a fake” before purchasing?  That is an absurd expectation to put on a consumer, especially when the entire point is most people do not know about this practice to begin with.  

Exactly!!!

 

The expectation of customers at large Golf retailers, and of reputable equipment manufacturers shouldn’t be, “let’s bring a magnifying glass, and be ready to investigate if this club is a clone/knock-off before buying it”!!!

 

I trusted Callaway, and I trusted Golf Town, and now I know that I can’t.

 

But once you have that knowledge, you either sit on it, or you SHARE IT, which is what I though WRX was about!!!

[Pnwpingi210]

16 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

"Why is there a bunch of 4 year old clubs being sold brand new in the wrapper" is enough for me to wonder what's going on and to take a minute to figure it out. 

False.  They were released in early 2022 which makes them not quite 3 years old if we are being accurate and certainly not 4.

 

also dicks is selling the 2022 version in their stores.   A bunch of them.  
 

do your research, man.

[MickeyTankBank]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

False.  They were released in early 2022 which makes them not quite 3 years old if we are being accurate and certainly not 4.

 

also dicks is selling the 2022 version in their stores.   A bunch of them.  
 

do your research, man.

 

I was at Dick's the other day and looked around at the new clubs they had, not one original Rogue ST driver in there. None of these 2024 versions either 

 

 

Edited February 7 by j4663535

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, j4663535 said:

 

I was at Dick's the other day and looked around at the new clubs they had, not one original Rogue ST driver in there.

The proof is posted above (again, like 1.5 mins of research would have answered this for you)

 

 Just becuase you didn’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t in stores and available online.

[GwrxMod]

15 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

You seem really angry and aggressive for some reason. I hope your day gets better. 

 

12 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Nope.  Just sharing information and stating facts.

 

Hopefully it’s helping you.  Sharing is caring

 

 

 

 

 

[Anser3]

4 hours ago, j4663535 said:

 

Buying other clubs and buying from a certain store is not research. Also saying on #6 that you actually didn't do any research says you didn't do any research. 

 

It also doesn't look identical, there is no jailbreak on the 2024 version.

 

It really seems like you're taking this very personal. Posting the same thing 3 different times. Once in the thread that already exists on this topic. Another time in the "Callaway Woods 2025" thread. Now this one.

 

To me this thread is pointless since the other threads in here exists. You can also see in that thread, I figured out that it wasn't the same club pretty quick by actually doing a couple minutes of research. And I didn't even own an original Rogue for 1.5 years. 

 

 

We (golfwrxers) know this.  But out of equipment junkies, we are 1% of the golfing population.  Most of the golfing public at large does not notice this.  They will buy the club and believe they bought a top-quality Callaway driver.  The OP is correct on this argument.

[jholz]

I hate to add fuel to the fire...

 

But, the true answer to this issue will always enter into the TLDR realm. For those of you will short attention spans, let me summarize:

 

1. This "scam" is nothing new. 

2. Callaway has been doing this kind of thing for years.

3. The "golfing consumer" is ultimately to blame. 

 

If you are willing to stick with me, I do believe that I can explain and support my opinions.

 

Simply put, the golf market places OEMs in a difficult position.

 

Reality 1. If you place every aspect of technology, build quality, and performance into a single golf club - it quickly becomes unrealistically expensive.

 

Reality 2. Golfers continually complain about the cost of equipment. 

 

Reality 3. Golfers will generally refuse to purchase anything that they perceive as being inferior.

 

Reality 4. Golfers are excessively judgmental and insecure. 

 

Given these realities, we see golf OEMs do "shady" things all the time. Remember the "17 yards more" era? Was that true? This is nothing new. 

 

For those with a bit of history in golf and golf equipment, I'm left to assume we remember the whole "made for" shaft controversy. Clearly, a "made for" Diamana or Matrix Xcon was not the same as the legit and very pricy aftermarket alternatives. In some cases, very skilled players could tell the difference. People complained. OEM's stopped doing the whole "made for" shaft thing. 

 

Now we have the difference between "velocore" and "non-velocore" Ventus shafts. The only thing that has changed is the nomenclature. The shill remains the same. 

 

Similarly, Callaway has produced a range of drivers incorporating different levels of technology and demanding different levels of price since the early 2000s. Back in the day, they used to be pretty up front with it.

 

They had the top of the line "FT" drivers which incorporated carbon and the bargain "Diablo" lines which were all titanium. This carried through the X Hot and X Hot 2 series.

 

But, apparently, this didn't work. In roughly 2019, Callaway introduced the X Hot 19 line of clubs. By doing so, they established a naming convention that is confusing, but nonetheless offers a clear differentiation of product lines. 

 

The naming convention is simple - take a known and accepted product, then slap a year based number on it. With the X Hot 19's, they also changed the look very slightly - with a different shade of red/pink on the accents. Callaway did try to differentiate the product. 

 

Yet, telling the truth seems to be a loser when it came to the sale of golf clubs. The average golf consumer can't seem to purchase a "lesser" product. Yet, they always complain about the price. Always looking for a deal. 

 

So, Callaway continues to push the envelope and confusion - trying to capture that market. They do this to try to make money - yes. When they were honest, they didn't get a return. So, they start to obfuscate more.  

 

At this point, they've probably taken it a bit too far with the Rogue ST 24 Max. But we only have ourselves to blame. Callaway has given us exactly what we asked for. 

 

Ultimately, anytime anyone offers you a top of the line product, brand new, for a price that seems like a steal - get those antennas up my fellow insects. It's always too good to be true.

 

Edited February 7 by jholz

[MickeyTankBank]

24 minutes ago, Anser3 said:

 

 

We (golfwrxers) know this.  But out of equipment junkies, we are 1% of the golfing population.  Most of the golfing public at large does not notice this.  They will buy the club and believe they bought a top-quality Callaway driver.  The OP is correct on this argument.

 

His argument that he did research when he actually didn't is not correct. He did no research on this club before buying it. He tried to give an argument to the "you did no research" people and provided nothing that said he did any kind of research before buying it. 

[Anser3]

4 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

His argument that he did research when he actually didn't is not correct. He did no research on this club before buying it. He tried to give an argument to the "you did no research" people and provided nothing that said he did any kind of research before buying it. 

 

 

The OP's premise that this is a shady practice by an OEM is correct.  That is what I meant about the OP being 100% correct.

Edited February 7 by Anser3

[MickeyTankBank]

5 minutes ago, Anser3 said:

 

 

The OP's premise that this is a shady practice by an OEM is correct.  That is what I meant about the OP being 100% correct.

 

I haven't many any sort of argument about that, I haven't touched on that at all. I'm talking about his response to the "do the research" people he posted. There was nothing of substance in that comment. That's why I quoted it directly.

[Pnwpingi210]

31 minutes ago, Anser3 said:

 

 

The OP's premise that this is a shady practice by an OEM is correct.  That is what I meant about the OP being 100% correct.

Correct.   

and informed others of the practice who appreciated it.  There’s value in doing that and it has zero negative consequences to anyone.  

Edited February 7 by Pnwpingi210

[JMB3]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

I hate to add fuel to the fire...

 

But, the true answer to this issue will always enter into the TLDR realm. For those of you will short attention spans, let me summarize:

 

1. This "scam" is nothing new. 

2. Callaway has been doing this kind of thing for years.

3. The "golfing consumer" is ultimately to blame. 

 

If you are willing to stick with me, I do believe that I can explain and support my opinions.

 

Simply put, the golf market places OEMs in a difficult position.

 

Reality 1. If you place every aspect of technology, build quality, and performance into a single golf club - it quickly becomes unrealistically expensive.

 

Reality 2. Golfers continually complain about the cost of equipment. 

 

Reality 3. Golfers will generally refuse to purchase anything that they perceive as being inferior.

 

Reality 4. Golfers are excessively judgmental and insecure. 

 

Given these realities, we see golf OEMs do "shady" things all the time. Remember the "17 yards more" era? Was that true? This is nothing new. 

 

For those with a bit of history in golf and golf equipment, I'm left to assume we remember the whole "made for" shaft controversy. Clearly, a "made for" Diamana or Matrix Xcon was not the same as the legit and very pricy aftermarket alternatives. In some cases, very skilled players could tell the difference. People complained. OEM's stopped doing the whole "made for" shaft thing. 

 

Now we have the difference between "velocore" and "non-velocore" Ventus shafts. The only thing that has changed is the nomenclature. The shill remains the same. 

 

Similarly, Callaway has produced a range of drivers incorporating different levels of technology and demanding different levels of price since the early 2000s. Back in the day, they used to be pretty up front with it.

 

They had the top of the line "FT" drivers which incorporated carbon and the bargain "Diablo" lines which were all titanium. This carried through the X Hot and X Hot 2 series.

 

But, apparently, this didn't work. In roughly 2019, Callaway introduced the X Hot 19 line of clubs. By doing so, they established a naming convention that is confusing, but nonetheless offers a clear differentiation of product lines. 

 

The naming convention is simple - take a known and accepted product, then slap a year based number on it. With the X Hot 19's, they also changed the look very slightly - with a different shade of red/pink on the accents. Callaway did try to differentiate the product. 

 

Yet, telling the truth seems to be a loser when it came to the sale of golf clubs. The average golf consumer can't seem to purchase a "lesser" product. Yet, they always complain about the price. Always looking for a deal. 

 

So, Callaway continues to push the envelope and confusion - trying to capture that market. They do this to try to make money - yes. When they were honest, they didn't get a return. So, they start to obfuscate more.  

 

At this point, they've probably taken it a bit too far with the Rogue ST 24 Max. But we only have ourselves to blame. Callaway has given us exactly what we asked for. 

 

Ultimately, anytime anyone offers you a top of the line product, brand new, for a price that seems like a steal - get those antennas up my fellow insects. It's always too good to be true.

 

Who asked for a fake Rogue ST?  
 

Callaway could do what Ping does…. Keep the prior release “current” at a discounted price.  That seems like a much more reasonable solution than making a knock of of a prior release.

[jholz]

15 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

Who asked for a fake Rogue ST?  
 

Callaway could do what Ping does…. Keep the prior release “current” at a discounted price.  That seems like a much more reasonable solution than making a knock of of a prior release.

 

Ping has always done their own thing. Ask any retailer. I respect them for it.

 

You can also find previous year Callaway products on the open market as well.

 

Finally, Callaway is offering a brand new driver that incorporates a carbon crown and adjustability for a lower price than any other major manufacturer.

 

All the golfing consumer can do is complain that it doesn't incorporate "jailbreak" technology. Smh.

 

I'd say the Callaway Rogue ST 24 Max is a steal. 

Edited February 7 by jholz

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Ping has always done their own thing. Ask any retailer. I respect them for it.

 

You can also find previous year Callaway products on the open market as well.

 

Finally, Callaway is offering a brand new driver that incorporates a carbon crown and adjustability for a lower price than any other major manufacturer.

 

All the golfing consumer can do is complain that it doesn't incorporate "jailbreak" technology. Smh.

 

I'd say the Callaway Rogue ST 24 Max is a steal. 

The version with the jailbreak is the same price from a big box retailer.  (See below)
 

That is why offering the a version without jailbreak at the same price seems deceptive
 

https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/callaway-rogue-st-max-driver-21cwymrgstmxdrvr4drv/21cwymrgstmxdrvr4drv

[JMB3]

4 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Ping has always done their own thing. Ask any retailer. I respect them for it.

 

You can also find previous year Callaway products on the open market as well.

 

Finally, Callaway is offering a brand new driver that incorporates a carbon crown and adjustability for a lower price than any other major manufacturer.

 

All the golfing consumer can do is complain that it doesn't incorporate "jailbreak" technology. Smh.

 

I'd say the Callaway Rogue ST 24 Max is a steal. 

It’s more than just jailbreak from my understanding.  Fake “tungsten”

weight.  No AI face.  Different carbon construction.  It’s basically nothing like the Rogue ST other than the paint job, name, ane labeling.

[cardia10]

23 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

Who asked for a fake Rogue ST?  
 

Callaway could do what Ping does…. Keep the prior release “current” at a discounted price.  That seems like a much more reasonable solution than making a knock of of a prior release.

Unlike Ping, Callaway is trying to squeeze the last few cents from the consumer for a cheaper to produce product. Build the line and reputation then milk it until it is worthless. They better watch the history of the Hogan and Macgregor brand closely...

[jholz]

12 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

It’s more than just jailbreak from my understanding.  Fake “tungsten”

weight.  No AI face.  Different carbon construction.  It’s basically nothing like the Rogue ST other than the paint job, name, ane labeling.

 

You are correct. Two different clubs. If you read the nomenclature carefully both retailers make the distinction.

 

Back to caveat emptor.

 

 

Edited February 7 by jholz