OEM’s producing Clone clubs and shafts…how do you feel about it?

[BallerNate]

30 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

Everyone is quick to jump on Callaway here but are we sure this isn’t just a matter of them having left over Rogue stick parts (assuming that’s how it works?) and deciding to slap together something they could quickly get into stores and make a few sales?  I mean we are talking about a club that’s what, 2-3 cycles ago?  
 

It sounds like there was a webpage, sounds like it did have different markings to kind of differentiate between the two.  
 

IDK just throwing it out there, haven’t read all the posts in all the threads on this so it’s probably been mentioned already.  

No, I mentioned in the original post that I called Callaway to ask them about the “Rogue ST Max 24” and let them know I thought they were misleading consumers.

 

The Rep I spoke with said that this was;  “a different club designed to cater to a different market segment in the budget consumer market, and not meant to compete with the Premium market segment, which includes the Elyte, A.I. Smoke, and the original Rogue ST lines”.

 

So I told them, if that’s the case, why was it designed to look IDENTICAL to the Rogue ST Max, and why does it have the same name? And to that of course they had no answer.

[Bigjim1022]

5 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

No, I mentioned in the original post that I called Callaway to ask them about the “Rogue ST Max 24” and let them know I thought they were misleading consumers.

 

The Rep I spoke with said that this was;  “a different club designed to cater to a different market segment in the budget consumer market, and not meant to compete with the Premium market segment, which includes the Elyte, A.I. Smoke, and the original Rogue ST lines”.

 

So I told them, if that’s the case, why was it designed to look IDENTICAL to the Rogue ST Max, and why does it have the same name? And to that of course they had no answer.

Ahhh gotcha.  So what’s wrong with this then?  They are catering to a different segment.  And one of the posts I saw said some of the markings were different-so not identical no?  IDK I have zero experience with either driver so it’s a legit question.  

[BallerNate]

16 minutes ago, BCC1898 said:

“Golf Geeks” aren’t going to give this driver a look. You’d HAVE to immediately know something was up.  

That’s why I started this thread @BCC1898, because I’m a “Golf Geek”, and even I was fooled by this “Rogue ST Max 24” clone.

 

I joined WRX in June 2020, I spend 1,000’s of hours researching Golf equipment here, on OEM websites, You Tube reviews, and online reviews, and I even owned the real Rogue ST Max for 1.5 yrs.

 

That’s the whole point…if I was fooled, then what about WRX’rs who don’t do as much research, and what about common consumers who do no research?

 

The reason I was fooled? Because I didn’t know that Callaway and other OEM’s made stripped down/clone products, and that I trusted Callaway, and the retailer that I bought it from (Golf Town).

 

That’s why I created this thread in the Equipment section, to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s and help others not make the same mistake.

[BallerNate]

7 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

Ahhh gotcha.  So what’s wrong with this then?  They are catering to a different segment.  And one of the posts I saw said some of the markings were different-so not identical no?  IDK I have zero experience with either driver so it’s a legit question.  

The problem is that they manufactured it with the same name, and the “almost” exact same design, as the Rogue ST Max, which in my opinion is in the discussion as the best Driver made in the last 5 years.

 

But this clone version doesn’t have Jailbreak, Flash Face, Carbon sole, or any of the technology that made the original great.

 

There was a fitter who tested the original, and the clone side-by-side, and the clone had 6mph less ball speed, and similar yardages, launch, and spin to a 4-Wood.

 

The other problem is that there’s no information available for consumers to do their research, since the “Rogue ST Max 24” isn’t listed on the Callaway website, and many retailers are promoting it the same as the original Rogue ST Max, and they are being sold on shelves side-by-side with Premium clubs (Elyte, A.I. Smoke etc).

 

And there were 2 threads that were created on Equipment section to help raise awareness and inform other WRX’rs, and they were both moved to the “Deal or No Deal” section.

 

Those are all the problems with this situation.

[Bigjim1022]

4 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

The problem is that they manufactured it with the same name, and the “almost” exact same design, as the Rogue ST Max, which in my opinion is in the discussion as the best Driver made in the last 5 years.

 

But this clone version doesn’t have Jailbreak, Flash Face, Carbon sole, or any of the technology that made the original great.

 

There was a fitter who tested the original, and the clone side-by-side, and the clone had 6mph less ball speed, and similar yardages, launch, and spin to a 4-Wood.

 

The other problem is that there’s no information available for consumers to do their research, since the “Rogue ST Max 24” isn’t listed on the Callaway website, and many retailers are promoting it the same as the original Rogue ST Max, and they are being sold on shelves side-by-side with Premium clubs (Elyte, A.I. Smoke etc).

 

And there were 2 threads that were created on Equipment section to help raise awareness and inform other WRX’rs, and they were both moved to the “Deal or No Deal” section.

 

Those are all the problems with this situation.

It does seem like a deal, no deal thread but I get your points.  
 

The segment this driver caters too would probably be better served hitting 4w off the tee but again I see your points.  We are not the target demographic and that’s ok.  
 

Sorry man, I tried to get where you are on this club and couldn’t.  I get your points though I don’t see the issue with it like others do.  Sounds like it’s getting discontinued anyway which is probably why the webpage doesn’t work.  Sell what can be sold and make room for the new stuff.  

[BallerNate]

1 minute ago, Bigjim1022 said:

It does seem like a deal, no deal thread but I get your points.  
 

The segment this driver caters too would probably be better served hitting 4w off the tee but again I see your points.  We are not the target demographic and that’s ok.  
 

Sorry man, I tried to get where you are on this club and couldn’t.  I get your points though I don’t see the issue with it like others do.  Sounds like it’s getting discontinued anyway which is probably why the webpage doesn’t work.  Sell what can be sold and make room for the new stuff.  

It’s all good, we don’t have to agree or see it the same way.

 

Lots of people on here think it’s shady AF, and others don’t…it is what it is.

 

At the end of the day, I feel like it’s important at least to raise awareness, and create discussion, so that people can form their own opinion and make their own decisions.

[J13]

Another theory (it's been done before) is the club isn't any different from the previous retail version and they say it doesn't have the same tech to justify why they can afford to sell it at a much lower retail and wholesale cost.  

[Red4282]

42 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

That’s why I started this thread @BCC1898, because I’m a “Golf Geek”, and even I was fooled by this “Rogue ST Max 24” clone.

 

I joined WRX in June 2020, I spend 1,000’s of hours researching Golf equipment here, on OEM websites, You Tube reviews, and online reviews, and I even owned the real Rogue ST Max for 1.5 yrs.

 

That’s the whole point…if I was fooled, then what about WRX’rs who don’t do as much research, and what about common consumers who do no research?

 

The reason I was fooled? Because I didn’t know that Callaway and other OEM’s made stripped down/clone products, and that I trusted Callaway, and the retailer that I bought it from (Golf Town).

 

That’s why I created this thread in the Equipment section, to raise awareness about this practice by OEM’s and help others not make the same mistake.

The other issue I see is the older models are often left in big box stores as leftover inventory, I would have totally assumed this was just that. It feels a bit bait and switch. Like The LTDX, one of my fav drivers of recent years is still in the stores today. Now I dont even know if its legit or not

Edited February 9 by Red4282

[BallerNate]

2 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

The other issue I see is the older models are often left in big box stores as leftover inventory, I would have totally assumed this was just that. It feels a bit bait and switch. Like The LTDX, one of my fav drivers of recent years is still in the stores today. Now I dont even know if its legit or not

Correct…exactly.

 

As others have said, there are still many retailers selling the original Rogue ST Max, and they’re priced for a similar/same price as the “24” clone.

[straightshot7]

35 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

It does seem like a deal, no deal thread but I get your points.  
 

The segment this driver caters too would probably be better served hitting 4w off the tee but again I see your points.  We are not the target demographic and that’s ok.  
 

Sorry man, I tried to get where you are on this club and couldn’t.  I get your points though I don’t see the issue with it like others do.  Sounds like it’s getting discontinued anyway which is probably why the webpage doesn’t work.  Sell what can be sold and make room for the new stuff.  

this rogue st clone does not possess any badging indicating that it’s a different driver.

 

People are mistakenly buying it thinking it’s the original. 
 

it doesn’t say “24” on it for example. 

it had the same Rogue ST logo and the golf shops are even calling it Rogue ST on the signage. 
 

You don’t think that’s a problem?

 

you want to have to go to the golf shop to carefully examine the clubs to make sure they aren’t clones?

 

or wouldn’t it be easier and more correct if they simply labeled it different so the consumer wouldn’t be confused/deceived?

 

how many people may be out there right now that don’t use Golfwrx that bought this Clone driver. They bought an inferior driver when they could have just bought the original for the same price. 

Edited February 9 by straightshot7

[BallerNate]

9 minutes ago, J13 said:

Another theory (it's been done before) is the club isn't any different from the previous retail version and they say it doesn't have the same tech to justify why they can afford to sell it at a much lower retail and wholesale cost.  

This is the problem with that theory…I wrote this a few times on this thread:

 

”There was a fitter who tested the original, and the clone side-by-side, and the clone had 6mph less ball speed, and similar yardages, launch, and spin to a 4-Wood.”

[Bigjim1022]

9 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

this rogue st clone does not possess any badging indicating that it’s a different driver.

 

People are mistakenly buying it thinking it’s the original. 
 

it doesn’t say “24” on it for example. 

it had the same Rogue ST logo and the golf shops are even calling it Rogue ST on the signage. 
 

You don’t think that’s a problem?

 

you want to have to go to the golf shop to carefully examine the clubs to make sure they aren’t clones?

 

or wouldn’t it be easier and more correct if they simply labeled it different so the consumer wouldn’t be confused/deceived?

There was another post somewhere that said the markings on it were different…if not I can see the issue.  I understand the “insides” are different.  As per my previous post, I have no experience with either club so was legit asking.  When I go to a golf shop I’m pretty locked in on what I’m looking for so yeah I’m ok making sure I get what I want.  Part of that is likely because the closest golf shop to me (not Dicks) is almost 2 hours away.  
 

I do not see a problem with a MFG making a watered down version of a club/shaft that is less expensive.  It’s been done for years and when I buy I make sure I know what I’m buying.  But that’s me, also per my previous post I tried to get where the OP was at and just couldn’t get upset about it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Edited February 9 by Bigjim1022

[straightshot7]

12 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

There was another post somewhere that said the markings on it were different…if not I can see the issue.  I understand the “insides” are different.  As per my previous post, I have no experience with either club so was legit asking.  
 

I do not see a problem with a MFG making a watered down version of a club/shaft that is less expensive.  It’s been done for years and when I buy I make sure I know what I’m buying.  But that’s me, also per my previous post I tried to get where the OP was at and just couldn’t get upset about it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

if you consider this an appropriate amount of distinction in the logos/labeling so that consumers won’t be confused, then we can agree to disagree.

 

again, the OP and others are callaway experts and still inadvertently bought this clone. 
 

why should I believe this isn’t the Rogue ST max when it says Rogue ST max on it? Isn’t that false advertising?

 

why didn’t they change the name unless they wanted people to think this was the original?

Edited February 9 by straightshot7

[Red4282]

Heck if your gonna get a clone might as well do it on Temu… or perhaps its been callaway all along… 🤔

[Pnwpingi210]

11 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

if you consider this an appropriate amount of distinction in the logos/labeling so that consumers won’t be confused, then we can agree to disagree.

 

again, the OP and others are callaway experts and still inadvertently bought this clone. 
 

why should I believe this isn’t the Rogue ST max when it says Rogue ST max on it? Isn’t that false advertising?

 

why didn’t they change the name unless they wanted people to think this was the original?

I’m not an expert, but probably more or a gear nerd than most and even played a rogue st triple diamond.

 

i walked by a bucket of these at Roger Dunn and thought they were the just the original version overstocks with the jailbreak since I saw that version (2022 rogue st max with jailbreak at dicks and a couple of local shops)  new in packaging for the same price of 349.99.  
 

they look very similar visually and that’s intentional by the oem.

 

 

 

[J13]

30 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

This is the problem with that theory…I wrote this a few times on this thread:

 

”There was a fitter who tested the original, and the clone side-by-side, and the clone had 6mph less ball speed, and similar yardages, launch, and spin to a 4-Wood.”

Yikes

[BallerNate]

6 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Heck if your gonna get a clone might as well do it on Temu… or perhaps its been callaway all along… 🤔

Exactly…Temu, a Flea Market, or a Pawn Shop are the places I would expect to get clones/knock-offs.

 

Not from Callaway, TaylorMade, Cobra, and major Golf retailers.

 

The whole situation is so sickening, and it’s crazy that there are people defending Callaway’s actions here.

 

But as they say, “different strokes for different folks”. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[BYK]

8 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Heck if your gonna get a clone might as well do it on Temu… or perhaps its been callaway all along… 🤔

lol I been asking for it

 

I wanna see a fake vs this watered down version

 

That's the part that makes me laugh

Callaway wants to fight the counterfeit game and then put out this Max 24 stuff

[Bigjim1022]

17 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

if you consider this an appropriate amount of distinction in the logos/labeling so that consumers won’t be confused, then we can agree to disagree.

 

again, the OP and others are callaway experts and still inadvertently bought this clone. 
 

why should I believe this isn’t the Rogue ST max when it says Rogue ST max on it? Isn’t that false advertising?

 

why didn’t they change the name unless they wanted people to think this was the original?

That’s fair, hardly noticeable.  If I was in a hurry and thought it was a great deal or not paying attention I probably wouldn’t notice.  

[BallerNate]

Just now, J13 said:

Yikes

Exactly!!

 

But there’s people on this thread who have seen those testing facts on this thread multiple times, but they’re still defending Callaway.

 

That’s why this thread is 9 pages long, Lol!!! 🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤣🤣

[MickeyTankBank]

42 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

if you consider this an appropriate amount of distinction in the logos/labeling so that consumers won’t be confused, then we can agree to disagree.

 

again, the OP and others are callaway experts and still inadvertently bought this clone. 
 

why should I believe this isn’t the Rogue ST max when it says Rogue ST max on it? Isn’t that false advertising?

 

why didn’t they change the name unless they wanted people to think this was the original?

 

I'm sorry but if you look at those side by side and think they are the same, you're not a Callaway expert. The lack of Jailbreak sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

*I'll add that any so called "Callaway expert" would know the original Rogue ST Max had Jailbreak and they wouldn't need to see it side by side.

 

Edited February 9 by j4663535

[BallerNate]

20 minutes ago, BYK said:

lol I been asking for it

 

I wanna see a fake vs this watered down version

 

That's the part that makes me laugh

Callaway wants to fight the counterfeit game and then put out this Max 24 stuff

Bahaha!!! Now that would be epic!!

 

Any You Tube reviewers on here?

 

Imagine a Temu Driver taking down the Callaway “Rogue ST Max 24” clone…that’d be fantastic entertainment right there, Lol!! 

Edited February 9 by BallerNate

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

I'm sorry but if you look at those side by side and think they are the same, you're not a Callaway expert. The lack of Jailbreak sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

The problem is in most stores the clubs aren’t side by side.

 

 I would agree if they were side by side in the sore display one would have a much easier time making the distinction.

[BallerNate]

3 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

The problem is in most stores the clubs aren’t side by side.

 

 I would agree if they were side by side in the sore display one would have a much easier time making the distinction.

Correct. When I bought the “Rogue ST Max 24” clone, there were no other clubs from the original Rogue ST line in the store.

 

So I bought it based on memory of what I club that I sold over 1 year ago looked like.

 

And again, the fact that it was being sold at a major Golf retailer, for a price similar to Drivers that are 3 cycles old, side-by-side with the Elyte and A.I. Smoke, made  by CALLAWAY, and it looks identical to the original, lead me to believe I was buying the same club as the original Rogue ST Max.
 

And many, many others will make the same mistake (which I think most of us believe is intentional by Callaway to sell more units).

[J13]

32 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

Exactly!!

 

But there’s people on this thread who have seen those testing facts on this thread multiple times, but they’re still defending Callaway.

 

That’s why this thread is 9 pages long, Lol!!! 🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤣🤣

 

 

I know plenty of guys that work at Callaway and I'm fine saying this is not something I'd be comfortable with. They should have designated the difference with a name change.  It's misleading without a doubt.

Edited February 9 by J13

[BallerNate]

Just now, J13 said:

 

 

I know plenty of guys that work at Callaway and I'm fine saying this is not something I'd be comfortable with. They should have designated the difference with a name change.  It's misleading to the consumer.

Exactly!!

 

And that’s all we’ve been saying on this thread…if they just gave it a different name and design, no one would have a problem with it!

 

There was some discussion on the other thread about why Johnny Wunder was leaving Callaway, and that maybe this type of direction for the company is one of the reasons why?

 

Obviously I have no idea on that, but I know I wouldn’t be too happy representing a company that takes advantage of consumers for a quick buck, and doesn’t seem like they care about their customers…

[straightshot7]

36 minutes ago, j4663535 said:

 

I'm sorry but if you look at those side by side and think they are the same, you're not a Callaway expert. The lack of Jailbreak sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

*I'll add that any so called "Callaway expert" would know the original Rogue ST Max had Jailbreak and they wouldn't need to see it side by side.

 

Yeah, people should have to look at these side by side or be an expert in order to figure out one is a clone. (Sarcasm)
 

That’s what we’ve come to. 
 

having to do investigative side by sides?

 

Or the OEM could just provide clear labeling of a different product …

 

maybe these people didn’t stop to think that Callaway was selling a different driver under the same name and they had to do a forensic analysis before buying?

 

most of us have never even heard of these Clone clubs before, so it is confusing at the very least . 

Edited February 9 by straightshot7

[Puttersaurus Rex]

1 hour ago, BallerNate said:

But there’s people on this thread who have seen those testing facts on this thread multiple times, but they’re still defending Callaway.

 

That’s why this thread is 9 pages long, Lol!!! 🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤣🤣

 

 

I disagree this is the reason it is 9 pages long.  Please consider the following as well. 

 

Some posters feigning shock/surprise well know that watered down shafts that look almost exactly like the "premium" product have existed for years.  Many examples of those "facts" as well, yet people are ignoring them and fanning the flames.

 

This thread reminded/taught me there is a Mavrik 22, but that doesn't mean I didn't know there was "made for" blueboards used by Titleist.  Not defending the practice of being "icky"...just stating that this isn't earth shattering/shocking news when this occurs by golf OEMs.  The Titleist issue caused many threads.  Also the Fentus that was mentioned in multiple TM threads and other separate threads as well.

 

That "fact" that the club doesn't perform was one anecdote by one fitter who hit it.  Was this a youtube review for clicks?  I am asking because the source is vague to me.  Just because it was repeated over and over doesn't mean it is truth.  Did multiple people test this driver with their gamer shaft and a proper fit?  That would be a nice topic to explore further.  (Not saying it will perform better, but possibly better than a 4 wood performance that is being stated?)  With the right shaft, it could perform great for a beginner golfer or someone on a budget.  Is it better than a G400Max with the same shaft?  PGA Tour players could take an old driver with dated tech and make it perform better than 99% of other golfers.  That doesn't make a driver with older tech a terrible option.  The "Fentus" works for some people.  The Rogue 24 may also work for others.

 

Some people may be defending Callaway, and some people may have a completely different viewpoint.  All of us have made at least one uninformed decision in ours lives.  How we deal with those decisions says a lot, hence "9 pages".

 

 

(** I stopped playing Callaway drivers a few years ago for separate reasons, and I am not defending them at all.)

[Pnwpingi210]

24 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

 

 

I disagree this is the reason it is 9 pages long.  Please consider the following as well. 

 

Some posters feigning shock/surprise well know that watered down shafts that look almost exactly like the "premium" product have existed for years.  Many examples of those "facts" as well, yet people are ignoring them and fanning the flames.

 

This thread reminded/taught me there is a Mavrik 22, but that doesn't mean I didn't know there was "made for" blueboards used by Titleist.  Not defending the practice of being "icky"...just stating that this isn't earth shattering/shocking news when this occurs by golf OEMs.  The Titleist issue caused many threads.  Also the Fentus that was mentioned in multiple TM threads and other separate threads as well.

 

That "fact" that the club doesn't perform was one anecdote by one fitter who hit it.  Was this a youtube review for clicks?  I am asking because the source is vague to me.  Just because it was repeated over and over doesn't mean it is truth.  Did multiple people test this driver with their gamer shaft and a proper fit?  That would be a nice topic to explore further.  (Not saying it will perform better, but possibly better than a 4 wood performance that is being stated?)  With the right shaft, it could perform great for a beginner golfer or someone on a budget.  Is it better than a G400Max with the same shaft?  PGA Tour players could take an old driver with dated tech and make it perform better than 99% of other golfers.  That doesn't make a driver with older tech a terrible option.  The "Fentus" works for some people.  The Rogue 24 may also work for others.

 

Some people may be defending Callaway, and some people may have a completely different viewpoint.  All of us have made at least one uninformed decision in ours lives.  How we deal with those decisions says a lot, hence "9 pages".

 

 

(** I stopped playing Callaway drivers a few years ago for separate reasons, and I am not defending them at all.)

You are right.  This topic morphed from the intent to outline and inform people, and discuss a manufactures club marketing and selling practices ….to a focus on a posters actions.

you’re also right we’ve all made a bad purchase that was avoidable.  The op was trying to help others not fall into the same trap (and was successful).

 

it’s great to know we’ve spent a lot of pages better educating on them how we personally would have handled it different, whether it be through doing more research (the irony in that is he already learned and was sharing with others so they don’t make the same mistake) or in his “alarmist” post ( maybe there was some hyperbole but I can’t think of a reasons how it impacted a member negatively?) or where he posted (in the equipment section since he thought it would get more eyeballs and was relevant to be making new purchases).

 

bravo community, bravo 

 

 

[BallerNate]

48 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

That "fact" that the club doesn't perform was one anecdote by one fitter who hit it.  Was this a youtube review for clicks?  I am asking because the source is vague to me.  Just because it was repeated over and over doesn't mean it is truth.  Did multiple people test this driver with their gamer shaft and a proper fit?  That would be a nice topic to explore further.  (Not saying it will perform better, but possibly better than a 4 wood performance that is being stated?)

The source of the testing of the original Rogue ST Max next to the “Rogue ST Max 24” clone was @martymcfly who created the “Warning: Rogue ST Max scam thread.

 

Here’s what he wrote:

 

”Hit the real one and this s*** side by side today, 6 mph in ballspeed difference @112 club. Spin was also about 1100 higher on average 2500 vs 3600. Reaaally nasty tactics from Cally.

basically gave me perfect 4 wood numbers….”

 

In another part of the thread he said he is a fitter, and he also weighed the “back weight” on the clone.