What does one gain going to a less forgiving players iron? Especially as a straight ball hitter

[BiggErn]

14 hours ago, DTorres said:

Consistency in Distance and Flight control. I could absolutely hit straight balls all day with GI irons but I won’t be able to shape them as extreme or consistently as my blades

If that’s the case why would you need to? 

[loki993]

 

 

9 hours ago, new2g0lf said:

100% this, you can't tell how an iron interacts with turf off of a mat.  Mats hide a lot of swing flaws and bad contact.   

 

Tough to do around me. Im in Michigan and Carls would be the place I would try stuff usually. I think last year they got rid of their grass hitting area and put in more trackman range stuff. 

 

anyone know if Miles of Golf has a grass hitting area?

 

Anywhere else that has grass I could do a fitting?

 

8 hours ago, is1ander said:

 

If you love the i230s and hit them well, get them. I think they're on sale at some spots. They go plenty high in the long irons and I also found them very forgiving. They might take you from a 20 to a 14 by the end of the season. I love players clubs for the playability and the precise sole interaction. You can get right behind the ball, even with mediocre lies and can work the bump and runs with Pw and 9. I'm beginning to think maybe sweepers do better with GI irons and diggers don't because the bigger soles just bounce off the turf and go all over the place, hah.

 

 

 

That's one of the issues I didn't get to hit the i230s. I wanted to but GG oddly didn't have a shaft for it so he gave me the i530, which I actually kind of hit like crap. 

 

I don't like to artificially inflate my handicap but if I could get my driving to not be terrible I may be closer to a 15 then a 20. I would probably a bogey golfer if I could actually drive the ball consistently. 

 

7 hours ago, mantan said:

I've been on the board for 20 years and seen a whole lot of 20 handicap 'good iron strikers' talk themselves into clubs they can 'grow into'. Sometimes it works, usually it doesn't.  (Side note, the percentage of single digit handicaps who say they are 'not good ball strikers' and mid-high handicaps who claim to be 'good iron strikers' makes me think there is a difference in the definition. There's a difference between 'usually making solid contact' and consistently compressing the ball on the sweet spot with the ability to manage trajectory/spin and work the ball consistently).

 

I'm an advocate of playing the most forgiving iron that you can stand to look knowing that somebody with half your handicap has them in their bag. Golf is about limiting the damage from your misses more than the great shots we hit each round.

 

But I also know the heart wants what the heart wants.  And OP will likely want to take plunge a whole lot of us did into more irons than we could handle for our game. Hitting a club off a mat in the store is completely different than being 175 out from a sidehill lie in the semi rough needed to carry the water in front of the green. 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent points there. Also I said relatively decently lol I dont consider myself a "good" ballstriker. What did surprise though, I was consistently hitting the ball in the same spot on the club, just not on the sweet spot lol. 90 percent of my shots were a high toe miss. Which isn't great but  I just need to figure out how to move that spot a little to the left on the face lol. which them Im sure will probably cause some other issue lol. isnt golf fun?

 

also though would grass change dispersion? All the numbers were pretty similar except for dispersion. 

 

 

Also definitely not the final fitting I just went to try some stuff and maybe find some stuff I liked to ask for when I finally do go into a good paid fitting at a Carls or Miles of Golf or wherever. 

Edited February 6 by loki993

[DTorres]

4 hours ago, BiggErn said:

If that’s the case why would you need to? 

I play on narrow tree filled courses, if you can only hit it straight you are going to leave yourself short a lot. If you can’t control a draw or fade around a tight corner your not hitting par

[HGLucky13]

35 minutes ago, loki993 said:

 

 

 

Tough to do around me. Im in Michigan and Carls would be the place I would try stuff usually. I think last year they got rid of their grass hitting area and put in more trackman range stuff. 

 

anyone know if Miles of Golf has a grass hitting area?

 

Anywhere else that has grass I could do a fitting?

 

 

That's one of the issues I didn't get to hit the i230s. I wanted to but GG oddly didn't have a shaft for it so he gave me the i530, which I actually kind of hit like crap. 

 

I don't like to artificially inflate my handicap but if I could get my driving to not be terrible I may be closer to a 15 then a 20. I would probably a bogey golfer if I could actually drive the ball consistently. 

 

 

Excellent points there. Also I said relatively decently lol I dont consider myself a "good" ballstriker. What did surprise though, I was consistently hitting the ball in the same spot on the club, just not on the sweet spot lol. 90 percent of my shots were a high toe miss. Which isn't great but  I just need to figure out how to move that spot a little to the left on the face lol. which them Im sure will probably cause some other issue lol. isnt golf fun?

 

also though would grass change dispersion? All the numbers were pretty similar except for dispersion. 

 

 

Also definitely not the final fitting I just went to try some stuff and maybe find some stuff I liked to ask for when I finally do go into a good paid fitting at a Carls or Miles of Golf or wherever. 

If your a Ping guy I would suggest you definitely find an I230 to hit and try it. It sounds to me like it would fill the need you're looking for. My experience with it is it is just as forgiving on my mishits as my old G425's but it is way more consistent in front to back dispersion than the G's and looks a whole lot better. 

I myself was on the same journey maybe a year ago or so. I really wanted to be able to hit players irons. I am a believer in aim small hit small. With the bigger Gi clubs I think my mind drifts too much, I have less focus on center hits. I bought a few used blades to mess around with on the range and I still hit them occasionally. It helps get my mind sharp. But those mishits are brutal. I really really wanted the Blueprint S to be my go to. It is such a beautiful club. But same problem as the blades, I am just not good enough to justify the amount of loss on my misses. My miss is a little fat and can be on the toe also. A real players iron can be brutal on those misses as was the blueprint. But I find the I230 to be at the same level as the G series from Ping for my misses.  You need to try it before you make a choice. 

 

As far as hitting off of grass. There is no way I could buy a club if I couldn't hit it multiple times off of grass first. Every time I have done a fitting indoors on a mat I have had bad luck. For me it does not transfer to the course at all. But I think that is a personal thing. Some guys it doesn't affect, me...no way

[is1ander]

1 hour ago, loki993 said:

 

 

 

Tough to do around me. Im in Michigan and Carls would be the place I would try stuff usually. I think last year they got rid of their grass hitting area and put in more trackman range stuff. 

 

anyone know if Miles of Golf has a grass hitting area?

 

Anywhere else that has grass I could do a fitting?

 

 

That's one of the issues I didn't get to hit the i230s. I wanted to but GG oddly didn't have a shaft for it so he gave me the i530, which I actually kind of hit like crap. 

 

I don't like to artificially inflate my handicap but if I could get my driving to not be terrible I may be closer to a 15 then a 20. I would probably a bogey golfer if I could actually drive the ball consistently. 

 

 

Excellent points there. Also I said relatively decently lol I dont consider myself a "good" ballstriker. What did surprise though, I was consistently hitting the ball in the same spot on the club, just not on the sweet spot lol. 90 percent of my shots were a high toe miss. Which isn't great but  I just need to figure out how to move that spot a little to the left on the face lol. which them Im sure will probably cause some other issue lol. isnt golf fun?

 

also though would grass change dispersion? All the numbers were pretty similar except for dispersion. 

 

 

Also definitely not the final fitting I just went to try some stuff and maybe find some stuff I liked to ask for when I finally do go into a good paid fitting at a Carls or Miles of Golf or wherever. 

 

I say go ahead and ball out with a Blueprint/i230 or ZXi7/5 or Cobra 3DTour set, lol. Get the combo deep cavity backs in the 6 and up and you'll be fine. From what I've seen, there's zero downside to player short irons and there's plenty upside. I tried ultra game improvement irons and also cavity back wedges, didn't help my game. So follow your gut and find that inner player, haha.

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

9 hours ago, mantan said:

seen a whole lot of 20 handicap 'good iron strikers'

Yeah as a former 20 capper I can identify with the thought process. It’s all relative in the mind of the improving golfer. Especially if their irons are the least troublesome part of their game. Today I’m an 8, I hit irons better than I ever have, but I feel my iron play stinks and is the thing holding me back.  😝

 

I agree with play the irons that you like.  

 

[ShowMe]

Generally speaking, more spin and less distance (especially on non-center hits).

[BiggErn]

5 hours ago, DTorres said:

I play on narrow tree filled courses, if you can only hit it straight you are going to leave yourself short a lot. If you can’t control a draw or fade around a tight corner your not hitting par

that must be a unicorn of a course. 

[DTorres]

46 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

that must be a unicorn of a course. 

Not really just a geographical situation I suppose. A lot of courses up in this area of Washington are very narrow and lined with trees you won’t be able to hit over or through with a lot of Doglegs or hazards. I play Sahalee East course a lot. The first hole is a double dogleg par 5. 5/9 holes on the front nine are Doglegs. It’s a very technical course that just hitting it straight is not conducive to scoring par and you are rewarded highly if you are able to shape shots at your discretion. 

[BiggErn]

11 minutes ago, DTorres said:

Not really just a geographical situation I suppose. A lot of courses up in this area of Washington are very narrow and lined with trees you won’t be able to hit over or through with a lot of Doglegs or hazards. I play Sahalee East course a lot. The first hole is a double dogleg par 5. 5/9 holes on the front nine are Doglegs. It’s a very technical course that just hitting it straight is not conducive to scoring par and you are rewarded highly if you are able to shape shots at your discretion. 

You realize that variation of club to path will result in curvature regardless of the club used. It doesn’t matter if it’s a blade, cb, or gi. Of course if you’re a world class ball striker that pures every shot and needs zero forgiveness a blade may be the way to go. 

[ssf301]

I play the Mizuno JPX 923 Tours.  I'd call it a blade with a mild cavity back.  

 

Benefits vs. Players Distance/GI Irons

1)  Front to back dispersion and consistency is so much better on well struck shots - with irons that have that more "springy face" I get more distance variation on well stuck shots

2)  I get more spin - I play on a PGA tour stop course and the greens stay pretty firm.  Even with terrific descent angles, I have trouble getting lower spinning irons to stop effectively on the greens I most often play

3)  Easier to hit consistently out of the rough - I can get huge fliers out of the rough with players distance and GI irons, but not near as much with the Mizuno Tours.

4)  Looks - just a personal preference thing, but if I like the way a club looks it matters.  I just don't like looking down at shovels

5)  Feedback - I get much better feedback on where I stuck a ball on the face of the iron vs. GI irons especially

 

Cons vs. Players Distance/GI Irons

1)  Distance loss - however with irons, I really don't care so much.  If I have a shot from 150 yrds, I want the shot to consistently go 150 yrds.   I could care less if the club says 8 iron or PW on the bottom, I just want it to go 150 yrds.

2)  Penalty for poorly struck shots - there is a greater penalty for poorly stuck shots (distance wise)

3)  At least with GI irons, the heads are a lot bigger and can be a real benefits for some golfers that may have a tendency to slap the ball all over the face.  I've seen a few contact point with playing partners on their GI irons that would have likely missed the entire iron head on my Mizunos.  🙂

[DTorres]

9 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

You realize that variation of club to path will result in curvature regardless of the club used. It doesn’t matter if it’s a blade, cb, or gi. Of course if you’re a world class ball striker that pures every shot and needs zero forgiveness a blade may be the way to go. 

 
 I definitely understand the dynamics of striking a golf ball and commend anyone that can consistently work a ball with GI irons as precisely as they can with players irons/blades. I wouldn’t say world class but I am at least an American class ball striker, I too hit it fat sometimes

[Joesti]

Also something to add is that most gi irons or players distance iron have 5 degree gaps in loft in the scoring irons. I would never want that kind of loft gap between a pw and 9 iron.

[farmer]

Go to ebay and get something like a set of Mizuno MP60's.  Very players looking down but has a bit of forgiveness.  Generally less than $200.00 as well.

[PuffyC]

Fire up YT and check out some of the many tests people have done comparing the forgiveness and performance of GI clubs vs players CBs. What you’ll see is a lot of what you found as well as what others here mentioned:

 

A players CB will launch higher because the lofts aren’t as jacked, it will spin more (spin is your friend with irons), and the dispersion and consistency will both be better even on mishits. And the big one (to me) is players clubs almost always look better.
 

So why GI clubs? I really don’t know because IRL and on my sim I see no advantage. At all. Well, I will say that mishits feel a lot better with GI clubs but that doesn’t translate to the actual performance.

[BiggErn]

19 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

Fire up YT and check out some of the many tests people have done comparing the forgiveness and performance of GI clubs vs players CBs. What you’ll see is a lot of what you found as well as what others here mentioned:

 

A players CB will launch higher because the lofts aren’t as jacked, it will spin more (spin is your friend with irons), and the dispersion and consistency will both be better even on mishits. And the big one (to me) is players clubs almost always look better.
 

So why GI clubs? I really don’t know because IRL and on my sim I see no advantage. At all. Well, I will say that mishits feel a lot better with GI clubs but that doesn’t translate to the actual performance.

lol. Who gives a flip about “jacked” lofts and/or the number on the bottom of a club? Loft for loft there is virtually no difference in center struck shots between gi and other irons. The forgiveness comes from off center strikes and it isn’t a myth. A slightly off center strike is going to retain more ball speed with a gi iron. A thin shot with a gi iron will elevate and carry more due to a lower cg. Wider soles help those slightly heavy shots as well. Spin is important but not as much, and something you can sacrifice a little, when you have 45* plus decent angle. Granted there are golfers who are bad enough that it doesn’t matter what they swing. 

[AFcelica]

30 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

lol. Who gives a flip about “jacked” lofts and/or the number on the bottom of a club? Loft for loft there is virtually no difference in center struck shots between gi and other irons. The forgiveness comes from off center strikes and it isn’t a myth. A slightly off center strike is going to retain more ball speed with a gi iron. A thin shot with a gi iron will elevate and carry more due to a lower cg. Wider soles help those slightly heavy shots as well. Spin is important but not as much, and something you can sacrifice a little, when you have 45* plus decent angle. Granted there are golfers who are bad enough that it doesn’t matter what they swing. 

Why spend $1200 on shovels then have to spend another $800 on 6 wedges to make up for a 42° pw. 
 

 

drank the koolaid a few years back and tried ap1 and ping g. Results were bad. Luckily they make all kinds of different clubs for different people 

Edited February 7 by AFcelica

[PuffyC]

30 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

lol. Who gives a flip about “jacked” lofts and/or the number on the bottom of a club? Loft for loft there is virtually no difference in center struck shots between gi and other irons. The forgiveness comes from off center strikes and it isn’t a myth. A slightly off center strike is going to retain more ball speed with a gi iron. A thin shot with a gi iron will elevate and carry more due to a lower cg. Wider soles help those slightly heavy shots as well. Spin is important but not as much, and something you can sacrifice a little, when you have 45* plus decent angle. Granted there are golfers who are bad enough that it doesn’t matter what they swing. 

 

If you like a low spinning fat bottom GI set with a 27 degree 7 iron better then you should absolutely play it, but I’ve never seen most of this “forgiveness” when actual measurements are done on a LM even by high cappers. FWIW, the Ping G730 has a higher CG then the Blueprint. The Callaway Ai Smoke has a higher CG than the Apex MB. The most played iron on tour - the T100 - has a lower CG than the vast majority of GI clubs. While some GI clubs might have a lower CG than some players clubs and blades, that’s not what makes them GI clubs. 

[BiggErn]

9 minutes ago, AFcelica said:

Why spend $1200 on shovels then have to spend another $800 on 6 wedges to make up for a 42° pw. 
 

 

drank the koolaid a few years back and tried ap1 and ping g. Results were bad. Luckily they make all kinds of different clubs for different people 

Most sets have a 45 PW followed by a 50 GW. Thats what I have followed by a 54, 58, and 64. If a set that has a strong lofted PW is the argument it’s a weak one unless the manufacturer refuses to list the specs. 

[BiggErn]

7 minutes ago, PuffyC said:

 

If you like a low spinning fat bottom GI set with a 27 degree 7 iron better then you should absolutely play it, but I’ve never seen most of this “forgiveness” when actual measurements are done on a LM even by high cappers. FWIW, the Ping G730 has a higher CG then the Blueprint. The Callaway Ai Smoke has a higher CG than the Apex MB. The most played iron on tour - the T100 - has a lower CG than the vast majority of GI clubs. While some GI clubs might have a lower CG than some players clubs and blades, that’s not what makes them GI clubs. 

The loft and number on a club doesn’t matter. It’s weird how launch monitors have guys hitting 230 yard 7 irons(who cares what the loft is) and 320 yard drives until they get on the course and it’s not even close to that. CG is only only one way to provide forgiveness in a club which is why titleist also makes a t400 and a few models in between. 

[AFcelica]

14 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

Most sets have a 45 PW followed by a 50 GW. Thats what I have followed by a 54, 58, and 64. If a set that has a strong lofted PW is the argument it’s a weak one unless the manufacturer refuses to list the specs. 

G440 and i530 are 42°

t200 and 350 are 43°

t400 is 38°

 

and why on earth would I want a 50° shovel? 

[Chunkitgood]

You lose spin and the ability to play golf properly.

 

Last I looked high toe misses are over the top and adding loft.  At least it was when I did it.

[AFcelica]

That’s true too. Spin variance with gi clubs can be quite high leading to inconsistent distance 

[trueyoung85]

14 hours ago, loki993 said:

 

 

 

Tough to do around me. Im in Michigan and Carls would be the place I would try stuff usually. I think last year they got rid of their grass hitting area and put in more trackman range stuff. 

 

anyone know if Miles of Golf has a grass hitting area?

 

Anywhere else that has grass I could do a fitting?

 

 

That's one of the issues I didn't get to hit the i230s. I wanted to but GG oddly didn't have a shaft for it so he gave me the i530, which I actually kind of hit like crap. 

 

I don't like to artificially inflate my handicap but if I could get my driving to not be terrible I may be closer to a 15 then a 20. I would probably a bogey golfer if I could actually drive the ball consistently. 

 

 

Excellent points there. Also I said relatively decently lol I dont consider myself a "good" ballstriker. What did surprise though, I was consistently hitting the ball in the same spot on the club, just not on the sweet spot lol. 90 percent of my shots were a high toe miss. Which isn't great but  I just need to figure out how to move that spot a little to the left on the face lol. which them Im sure will probably cause some other issue lol. isnt golf fun?

 

also though would grass change dispersion? All the numbers were pretty similar except for dispersion. 

 

 

Also definitely not the final fitting I just went to try some stuff and maybe find some stuff I liked to ask for when I finally do go into a good paid fitting at a Carls or Miles of Golf or wherever. 

Even at Miles of Golf, I don't believe fittings are done on grass, are fittings are normally done in their bays, which are mats. 

[trueyoung85]

Its normally the offset that turns me away from GI irons..shots leaking left when I know I put a good swing on a shot. 

[loki993]

58 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

You lose spin and the ability to play golf properly.

 

Last I looked high toe misses are over the top and adding loft.  At least it was when I did it.

 

I have trouble with low point, I have a tendency to not get to the ground and top it. How I have resolved it is to feel like Im basically driving the club into the ground, like basically smack the ground. I think that may make me come over the top a bit at times and I get a bit steep sometime too. Don't think I was adding loft though, my AOA was always negative and If I was adding loft I would think I would notice a distance drop off. Back when I was flipping I think I hit my 7 irons 130, 140 maybe. I hit 150 160 now pretty consistently and that's a 34 degree 7 iron. 

 

Also Ive recently had an issue with a really closed face at impact and its strange because I've never really been a slicer with my irons, so its not like I was trying to correct something.  Its just something that's popped up and I haven't been able to figure it out. 

 

So the toe misses could be some of that too. I need to get the range and work through it. Or just go get some lessons, which should happen here soon too. 

 

Needless to say though it was not my best hitting day by a long shot. 

 

That said even though I was hitting probably on one of the worst places to hit on the face the only club I really saw a huge distance drop off was a few hits I took on a P7CB, which flew like 130 lol. That said even hitting it where I was hitting it that was the best feeling club I have ever hit.

 

Actually on the "players" clubs none of the toey shots felt bad, except the Mizunos. In fact they all felt better on those then they did on the GI clubs. 

[BiggErn]

2 hours ago, AFcelica said:

G440 and i530 are 42°

t200 and 350 are 43°

t400 is 38°

 

and why on earth would I want a 50° shovel? 

lol. Shovel? Like the T100 wedge? You can’t base ping pw loft on the lowest when they have 3 options but I already know people are disingenuous when they start throwing out terms like “shovel”, turf interaction, workability, etc. 

[is1ander]

9 hours ago, BiggErn said:

that must be a unicorn of a course. 

 

I have to disagree. There are three holes at my muni home course where an A1 center fairway drive can still get you blocked out by a tree. At first, I thought it was an unfair design. But then I realized that it's an intentional design to separate the good from the great. I do see your point. Colin Morikawa said that most pros don't really shape shots. But Scheffler does. 

[is1ander]

50 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

lol. Shovel? Like the T100 wedge? You can’t base ping pw loft on the lowest when they have 3 options but I already know people are disingenuous when they start throwing out terms like “shovel”, turf interaction, workability, etc. 

 

Woah, woah. Using the term "turf interaction" is disingenuous? What do you mean by that?

Edited February 7 by is1ander

[AFcelica]

I think he means he either can’t tell a difference or isn’t good enough to notice so it must be hogwash brought on by internet trolls that he has vowed to silence the opinions of through sarcastic comments