What does one gain going to a less forgiving players iron? Especially as a straight ball hitter

[BiggErn]

38 minutes ago, is1ander said:

 

Woah, woah. Using the term "turn interaction" is disingenuous? What do you mean by that?

Because it’s a preference and has nothing to do with the playability or forgiveness of a club. If you strike the ball solidly the ball is gone before the club interacts with the turf. 

[is1ander]

3 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

Because it’s a preference and has nothing to do with the playability or forgiveness of a club. If you strike the ball solidly the ball is gone before the club interacts with the turf. 

 

How do you explain the army of Srixon fans who swear by the V-sole design? Not just here but also on the PGA, LPGA and other tours. They win a lot, many are not Srixon staffers. They win a whole lot.

[is1ander]

8 minutes ago, BiggErn said:

Because it’s a preference and has nothing to do with the playability or forgiveness of a club. If you strike the ball solidly the ball is gone before the club interacts with the turf. 

 

And if that's the case, Vokey and his 50 grinds are what? Wedges are still irons. 

[AFcelica]

Some people like a forgiving sole because the difference between 1/4” in the turf can lead to a shot being 40+ yards short. The same as if you missed a full inch or more off the toe. Ironic the guy touting forgiveness doesn’t rate sole forgiveness. 

[AFcelica]

10 hours ago, BiggErn said:

lol. Shovel? Like the T100 wedge? You can’t base ping pw loft on the lowest when they have 3 options but I already know people are disingenuous when they start throwing out terms like “shovel”, turf interaction, workability, etc. 

retro lofts? Why would I want to launch my wedges even higher? I don’t need a 140ft peak height pw

[Urb]

If you can hit the middle of the club face, a smaller iron will get through turf, rough, etc better.  

 

"buuuuut terf interaction is a myth, hit ball first."

 

Yes, that's how you play golf, but the club still needs to cut a divot.  If I think the club will get stuck or smack off hardpan, I'm not making a committed swing.  

[jda]

Getting through the rough, more spin with bad lies, flighted shots for me.  Fairway bunker shots are easier.

 

IMO, most any club can spin the ball with a perfect lie and show on a QC Quad, but stopping a 7 iron out of thick, wet rough is easier with a players club... which people don't really show when arguing that any club spins the ball the same.

 

I don't work the ball left to right much anymore, but I do work them low to high.  Most GI just strike the ball and they launch how the launch.  Players stuff can stay down or fly high much better.

 

This is overly simple, but If you combine the two, a 180 yard shot out of the thick rough can spin more and get launched higher with a players club whereas with a GI iron, you bludgeon the ball forward in some way depending on how the club was designed.

 

IMO, think of this with your worst shot situation, not your best.

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

3 hours ago, jda said:

This is overly simple, but If you combine the two, a 180 yard shot out of the thick rough can spin more and get launched higher with a players club whereas with a GI iron, you bludgeon the ball forward in some way depending on how the club was designed.

People who can hit and hold the green from 180 yards out of the thick rough could use a rake and a shovel to play golf and probably aren't really objectively considering the benefits of a GI iron set.  

[onehopstopt]

In my opinion there are two crucial differences going from a GI iron to a players iron. These aren't the only differences, but I think they are the most important ones. One is a benefit for all golfers, and the other one is either a boon, neutral, or really bad depending on your swing.

 

1. Thin, large faces and a deep/low CG mean that GI irons are going to have a wider front-to-back dispersion pattern than a players iron. This is true for everyone, and I do mean everyone. If you give a 30 HCP a blade and a GI iron, an their front-to-back dispersion will be tighter with the blade.

 

2. Higher and more forward CGs of players irons mean they will launch lower and spin more. If you are a player who struggles to launch the ball well, either due to lower swing speed or bad impact conditions, then this will murder your ability to hit good shots. However, if you are a high speed player with decent impact conditions then this can be a really good thing, because it will let you hit a more controlled low flight/high spin shot. It also helps reduce flyers, hold greens better, etc.

 

So the question really becomes: can you get good, or even better, launch conditions out of the players iron given your club speed and delivery characteristics? If so, then pick a players iron. If not, then go GI. This is a little bit reductive, but really I do think that's what it mostly boils down to. That's why, if you ask me, handicap is not really the right data point to use when picking what irons to use. I would focus on club speed, angle of attack, and dynamic loft. Now those are going to be correlated with handicap, but you're absolutely going to have exceptions at both ends.

 

I've excluded some other bits: offset, face size, sole width, etc. In my personal opinion those are less important than CG and face design, but they are also worth considering.

 

Also important: the lower the loft of a club, the more club speed and more optimized the club delivery needs to be to get a good launch. This is why many players have zero issue with their blade-type wedges but struggle greatly with their long irons. It's why combo sets exist. It's also a big part of the reason that we use things like hybrids and fairway woods and don't all play irons all the way up to driver.

 

As a final point, clubs are designed for common player profiles. If you have an unusual profile then you might not have a club that's a perfect fit for you. For example, a very high swing speed beginner with inconsistent strike would want an iron with a large face, wide sole, and probably some offset, but also a high CG and solid construction. As far as I'm aware iron does not exist, because that player profile is comparatively quite rare.

[AFcelica]

23 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

People who can hit and hold the green from 180 yards out of the thick rough could use a rake and a shovel to play golf and probably aren't really objectively considering the benefits of a GI iron set.  

That’s his point if you can hit the green from 180 you’ll begin to realize the gi iron actually makes that shot a bit more difficult/ has a bit less control

[jda]

53 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

People who can hit and hold the green from 180 yards out of the thick rough could use a rake and a shovel to play golf and probably aren't really objectively considering the benefits of a GI iron set.  

 

Don't discount the people who can, but don't have the tools to do so.  All that it really takes is some good contact on the face and let the club work for a better shot.  A bit of a steep AOA helps, but even without it, the smaller head is helpful.  Besides, it is not always about hitting and holding a green, but green side or just short is better than a 50 yard short knuckleball or having your shovel get hung up in the grass and have the face close for a pull.

 

Of course people who already know what players clubs can do don't want GI, but that seems to be the converse of the question which was GI => Players.

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

11 minutes ago, jda said:

Don't discount the people who can, but don't have the tools to do so. 

Maybe so but I doubt it.  Only on WRX do you find a bunch of double digit and higher handicaps who think they can or would be able to hit an iron 180 yards out of thick rough to make the green if only they had the right set of irons.  Heck, my longest iron is a 6 iron and I can hit it 155 yards.  [I am now playing Maltby TS3s and don't really know how most people would categorize them.  According to the MPF, they are "Super Game Improvement" irons but I certainly don't view them as traditional GI clubs.]  

 

15 minutes ago, jda said:

Besides, it is not always about hitting and holding a green, but green side or just short is better than a 50 yard short knuckleball or having your shovel get hung up in the grass and have the face close for a pull.

I agree totally.  But, just because you find yourself in the thick rough, 180 yards out, doesn't mean you should try to hit the green with your next shot no matter what clubs you play.  How about picking a club (short iron or hybrid) to advance the ball 140-150 yards to a place with an unobstructed chip shot to the flag for your third shot?  IMO, such a strategy will lead to lower scores for most double digit and higher handicaps.  One of your GI irons or hybrids are far more likely to effectively execute that planned layup than trying to make the green with a player's iron.  

[AFcelica]

Wrx is indeed a funny place. Someone asks why people don’t play gi irons. Gets a bunch of reasonable responses. Then people argue with people they don’t know that their own personal experiences are wrong without having ever seen their swing. 
 

all in all everything is a trade off. You have to decide which trade offs benefit your specific game. Luckily they make more than 2 irons. We are spoiled for choice. And at the end of the day. It’s your game and your money. Buy and play what you like who cares what anyone else thinks. 

[kiwihacker]

On 2/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, bannermannn88 said:

If you can swing the “investment”, I have thoroughly enjoyed my methodology as a 7 HC and I recommend it. Set A - the fitted clubs I need to go as low as possible that won’t proverbially kick me if the shins for a low toe strike; Set B - the clubs I lust over, take out for Sunday 9s and truly love to hit on the range. 
 

ZX5s and an old, used set of 620 MBs I got for a couple hundred bucks. If you end up getting confident enough with your “fun” set of MBs/blades, offload the shovels and old blades and get some brand new shiny butter knives. 

Great advice. 

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

40 minutes ago, AFcelica said:

Wrx is indeed a funny place. Someone asks why people don’t play gi irons. Gets a bunch of reasonable responses. Then people argue with people they don’t know that their own personal experiences are wrong without having ever seen their swing. 
 

all in all everything is a trade off. You have to decide which trade offs benefit your specific game. Luckily they make more than 2 irons. We are spoiled for choice. And at the end of the day. It’s your game and your money. Buy and play what you like who cares what anyone else thinks. 

Please re-read the OP.  It does not ask “why people don’t play gi irons.”  The OP is a self-stated 20 HCP who has played GI irons and asks “what does going to a players iron get you?”  Presumably, he is wondering what benefit HE might get from changing from GI to player’s irons. 

 

With all due respect, there is as close to a zero percent chance as you can get that switching to a player’s iron from a GI iron will help the OP hit a green with an iron shot from 180 yards out of the thick rough.  That is not something that switching to a player’s iron will get the OP and should not be considered by him.  That is not disparaging to anyone, least of all the OP.  IMO, only very, very good golfers can routinely hit a 180 yard iron shot onto a green out of thick rough and most average guys like the OP and me should not even try it. Leads to high numbers.  

 

There may be other benefits that the OP can get from switching from GI to player’s irons which other posters have reasonably addressed and I have not commented on.  Hitting better 180 yard iron shots to the green from the thick rough is not one of them.  Feel free to disagree.

[AFcelica]

I think you’re getting hung up on 180 yards. If that’s not a 6-7 for you then insert your 6/7 iron distance. A smaller club is objectively easier to hit out of the rough is the point. 

[jda]

2 hours ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

One of your GI irons or hybrids are far more likely to effectively execute that planned layup than trying to make the green with a player's iron.  

 

Unequivocally no.  I can find the center of the face nearly all of the time, so the smaller iron will nearly always yield a better result.  A miss near the green is way better than being 40-50 yards back.  This is just me.  If somebody cannot find the center then it might not be for them.

 

BTW - I don't play hybrids.  Again, I can find the face, so I still have 3 iron at 21 degrees and can take 18 degree 2 iron if I need one (traditional lofts on these).  No need to use a hybrid if I can use these.  Irons still make better shots for me.  I understand that not everybody can find the center of a long iron, but if you can, then you know...

 

21 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

Presumably, he is wondering what benefit HE might get from changing from GI to player’s irons. 

 

If he can find the center of the face a good amount of the time, then it is worth the journey to see.  It could make a difference.  No need to just admit defeat if you can get past this no-so-huge barrier.  If you cannot find the face, then don't try it.  Guys can be 20s for a lot of reasons and not all of them strike irons poorly.

[kiwihacker]

On 2/7/2025 at 10:04 AM, Joesti said:

Also something to add is that most gi irons or players distance iron have 5 degree gaps in loft in the scoring irons. I would never want that kind of loft gap between a pw and 9 iron.

Or 6° in some of the more extremely strong lofted SGI clubs coming out nowadays. 

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

18 minutes ago, AFcelica said:

I think you’re getting hung up on 180 yards. 

You are correct.  My focus is on the difficulty of the shot used as an example which includes the 180 yard distance.  If you advance the proposition that it is easier to hit player's irons instead of GI irons from the thick rough from around 120 yards, that's a whole different proposition.  Isn't that the premise of blended sets that use GI long irons and more player's like clubs in the short irons?

 

21 minutes ago, AFcelica said:

 A smaller club is objectively easier to hit out of the rough is the point. 

WOW.  Opening up a whole new rabbit hole. 😉 Some would argue that hybrids are significantly easier to hit out of rough than long irons, whether the irons are teeny tiny or shovels.  I don't think your statement is an objective fact so much as an informed (and to be respected) opinion. 

 

11 minutes ago, jda said:

I still have 3 iron at 21 degrees and can take 18 degree 2 iron if I need one (traditional lofts on these).  No need to use a hybrid if I can use these.  Irons still make better shots for me. 

If you don't mind sharing, what is your USGA Index?  I simply don't find many typical golfers still carrying 2 and 3 irons.  How far do you hit them?  This may explain your response to the OP.  

[AFcelica]

11 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

You are correct.  My focus is on the difficulty of the shot used as an example which includes the 180 yard distance.  If you advance the proposition that it is easier to hit player's irons instead of GI irons from the thick rough from around 120 yards, that's a whole different proposition.  Isn't that the premise of blended sets that use GI long irons and more player's like clubs in the short irons?

 

WOW.  Opening up a whole new rabbit hole. 😉 Some would argue that hybrids are significantly easier to hit out of rough than long irons, whether the irons are teeny tiny or shovels.  I don't think your statement is an objective fact so much as an informed (and to be respected) opinion. 

 

If you don't mind sharing, what is your USGA Index?  I simply don't find many typical golfers still carrying 2 and 3 irons.  How far do you hit them?  This may explain your response to the OP.  

I would agree hybrids are easier unless the rough is us open thick but we were talking about irons. And even still an iron would have more control. A hybrid is more of a get it down there somewhere type shot. 
 

as far as being stuck on 180y well if that’s is a 5wood for someone yes it’s much harder than a 7 iron that was quoted above. Again his premise was a players 7 iron will give you more control than a similarly lofted gi club out of rough which is true

Edited February 7 by AFcelica

[jda]

Index does not matter at all, it is about iron striking.  I am a 3 or 4, but this is because I have long since stopped caring, don't read greens very much and don't put in much effort beyond looking for a yardage to the pin which I usually shoot directly at - more fun this way.  This has nothing to do with iron striking.  3 iron is 235 off of the tee, or a bit more if I can swing up with it... no more than 235 from the turf but usually less if the lie is bad.  Again, index is not important.

 

A smaller tool has less resistance in the rough.  It might be easier to hit for some.  The tool has to be wielded.  If the person can wield it, then the results are usually better with the smaller iron.  180 out of the rough for me is usually a 36 degree 7 iron, but maybe a 6 depending on the situation.  I will hit more greens with a players iron than a GI or hybrid because the tool is better made for it... but I can also wield it.

 

One of the old guys that I play with is like a 20, still plays MacGregor blades and he nuts those things.  He just cannot get off of the tee anymore and cannot see well enough to get great reads, but he can find a green from any lie within his range with those butter knives... the ball just pop right out of the rough for him.  Ball striking.  Nobody should EVER suggest that he replace them with GI clubs... it would hurt him.

[Spinozist]

GI irons that have tall faces and perimeter weighting generally don't have low cgs, so there's that to throw into the mix as well. The bigger faces are made for the player who has trouble with center contact, but then by doing that it counteracts low cg, which actually makes launch harder. Similarly taking the cg back too far for forgiveness ends up hurting distance.

[AFcelica]

Back to op. Get a cheap 6 or 7 iron t100/ap2 callaway mizuno whoever cb with a reasonable shaft for you off the bay and experiment yourself

[Mark_Tha_Tinkerer]

27 minutes ago, jda said:

Index does not matter at all, it is about iron striking.  I am a 3 or 4, but this is because I have long since stopped caring, don't read greens very much and don't put in much effort beyond looking for a yardage to the pin which I usually shoot directly at - more fun this way.  This has nothing to do with iron striking.  3 iron is 235 off of the tee, or a bit more if I can swing up with it... no more than 235 from the turf but usually less if the lie is bad.  Again, index is not important.

First, thank you for the conversation.  In my mind, Index and iron striking are totally interrelated.  It's hard for me to conceive of a 3 or 4 handicapper who does not strike the ball well.  The low index is the natural result of the good ball striking.  Similarly, I can't conceive of a 20 HDC being a very good ball striker.  For a very good golfer like you with a 3 or 4 HDC who hits a 3 iron 235 from tee and turf, your response makes perfect sense.  I just don't think it applies to the OP.  Congratulations on being such a good golfer.

 

38 minutes ago, AFcelica said:

Again his premise was a players 7 iron will give you more control than a similarly lofted gi club out of rough which is true

As with @jda above, thank you for the respectful conversation.  Whether a players iron theoretically gives more control than a GI iron from the thick rough from some specified distance is a debate without relevance if the particular golfer to whom the advise is given can not or should not hit that shot with an iron from that distance and lie.  Pick a different shot or use a different club that you can confidently hit to a spot where you have the highest percentage of making par or bogey.  

[jda]

6 minutes ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

Similarly, I can't conceive of a 20 HDC being a very good ball striker.

 

Ask them.  There are a lot of ways to get to a 20.  Most of my friends make face contact OK but have other issues like casting, swiping, losing balls, cannot chip, three putting and the like.  Some just don't have the strength anymore but still nut the ball.  There are more good players than you know who are not great ball strikers and plenty of bad players who are.  Besides, they don't have to be awesome, just good enough to get some benefit.

 

Tin Cup was a legendary ball striker and he lost the US Open because of course management, for example.  🙂

[Veebee3]

As someone who has gamed t300, mizzy blades and everything in between I really dont see a need for anything more forgiving than a players distance club like a p790, T200, etc., these have more than enough distance and forgiveness.
 

Speaking generally, a more players type club will promote more spin, distance consistency and precision. In other words, your good shots will be better and your bad shots will be more predictable. The help provided by a GI club won’t really impact scoring unless you are using it to address a certain swing flaw and it specifically works for your swing (i.e. a club with a ton of offset because you arent squaring the face properly). But outside of that, no high handicapper loses significant strokes because they lost an extra 6 yards on an off center strike. They lose strokes around the green, slicing or hooking it too far OB or nutting one with too low of spin so it airmails the green. That is where doubles and triples come from. A GI iron will not help with those, they actually make it worse. 

[NRJyzr]

10 hours ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

In my mind, Index and iron striking are totally interrelated. 

 

This comes with an apology for interjecting myself into a discussion you're having with jda...

 

Also apologies for a longish post.

 

This is something I feel I can speak to, just comparing myself to one of my friends.  My perspective is that theres far less correlation between iron striking and index.  An example forthcoming...

 

Have a friend I've played a lot of golf with over the last 17 years.  For a great deal of that time, our indexes were within a stroke of each other, in the 7 to 9 range.  Our games are wildly different.  I play blades, and frequently 30 year old blades, while my friend plays Ping G series.  In his words, he plays them because he *needs* to.  He's actually a terrible iron player, in his own words.

 

His strength:  short game and putting, to the point we call him Egg Beater because he's a scrambling machine.

 

In my case, I was a considerably longer hitter I my younger days than he is, but not accurate; there was a time where I averaged more than one penalty stroke per round.  Add to that, I would, on average, be forced to punch out of trees somewhere between 2 and 4 times every round.  I wish I were exaggerating.  My short game & putting no where close to that of Mr Egg Beater.

 

A final touch...  his low round is 69 (-2), which included putts from everywhere.  He shot a 31 on the front, and doubled a hole on the back after finding a tree 50 yds off the tee.  My best round is a crowd pleasing 73 (+2), in which I hit 14 GIR, had one penalty stroke, and made one birdie (on 18).  Amusingly, the only par save of the 4 missed greens was the hole with a penalty (par 5 2nd shot in the water short of green). 

 

So yeah, iron striking and index, not so tied together in my experience.  <shrug>

 

 

[NRJyzr]

On 2/5/2025 at 11:57 AM, loki993 said:

I've been looking at a lot of club reviews as I'm thinking this is going to be the year I get an actual new set of clubs. Ive always used either hand me down clubs or stuff Ive gotten used for relative cheapy. So instead of messing around with stuff that may work Im going to get fitted to something that will work, sell or trade all my old stuff and be done with it. 

 

Ive always used some form of game improvement irons, usually pings as I just seem to get along with them. I hit some irons last year as I was thinking of upgraded and I thought I hit G430s pretty good, but this was just me alone hitting them in the demo bay at Carls. 

 

I hit a bunch of clubs last weekend because GG is doing a free fitting event. I hit GI irons and I hit players irons. The players irons had the best dispersion for me, interestingly enough the G440s which I though I would like I didn't. Now, Im probably a 20 HCP, but Im a 20 that hits irons relatively decently I would say and when Im not hitting well there is no club that's going to help me. I've really concentrated on getting better with my irons the past couple years too, so maybe that helping too. My biggest surprise was launch, I'm a bit of a low ball hitter and I figured that GI irons would help me with that, they didn't really. All the clubs I hit had similar launch and landing angles, in fact the 1 GI iron that I hit decently had slightly worse launch and landing angles then the players irons I hit well. 

 

Now Ive seen people say there are plenty of single digit HCPs out there that play GI irons. 

 

I also see people do videos saying, insert whatever GI irons they are hitting, these are so easy to hit why wouldn't everyone use them...and then they don't use them in their own bag. 

 

I see people always complain about the chunky look of a GI iron. Im guilty of it myself, I prefer the look of a nice thin players iron, but I never felt like I was good enough to hit them so I avoided them. 

 

If a players iron is actually harder to hit and GI iron is so easy what is the actual advantage of using a players iron?

 

For someone that doesn't or cant really work the ball, what does going to a players iron get you?

 

 

Best thing to do IMHO is start by looking at Cool Clubs iron reviews.  They do robot testing to show the dispersion of a number of modern iron sets, from 6 points on the face.  Isolates the clubhead variable in "what would i see in using X iron set" question.

 

They don't have everything, but they have a decent amount of options tested.

 

[Ger21]

11 hours ago, Mark_Tha_Tinkerer said:

In my mind, Index and iron striking are totally interrelated.

Sure, for a 3 or a 20, I'd agree. But somewhere in between there can be some good iron players.

 

I'm a 12hcp, playing blades. I find the center 90-95% of the time, but 1 or 2 swing around might be a topped shot that rolls 50 yards forward. I'll hit 1-2 drivers per round that lead to doubles. 1 or 2 bad iron shots that lead to doubles. 1 or 2 bad chips that lead to doubles. Then throw in another 4-5 holes where you don't get up and down for bogey.

[ChaosTheory]

I’m short of time to look up specific clubs right now, but the Cool Clubs robot testing has me very intrigued. Specifically, should I be playing one of the players/ cb irons which their tests show as being much tighter dispersion than the typical GI models. 
 

As far as I can tell, on average I’d be losing distance compared to hollow GI irons, but tightening up dispersion by a lot.  Is that a fair expectation?

 

I’m an 8 but probably an 11 with irons. I don’t hit way off center but I definitely can get high or low on the face.