Losing the only feel that matters (for me, but maybe you too)

[bonvivantva]

I've been on a rollercoaster with my golf game.  I'm sure many of you have already though, "that's golf for you", but hear me out.  I started in about 2004 just playing a couple times a year with friends.  Started going on golf trips after that, and got serious around 2018-19.  In 2020 I started practicing almost every day in a simulator, I'd say at least an average of 3 times a week.  I've taken lessons with 5 instructors, with the same guy once for almost 3 years.  One year I may have great contact and hit an 8i 160 carry.  The next year I can't hit any iron over 130 (for year).  Long story short, I've had some very long and difficult slumps, which I've posted about in the past.

 

This past summer I broke 80 for the first time.  I shot in the low 80s once or twice previously, but last year I had a bunch of rounds 82-84, and then one day while out with my parents and daughter, not really focused on my own game but aware I was playing much better than usual, I sunk an unlikely putt, entered in a par on my watch on 18, and saw that'd I'd shot 79.  In November I won low gross on my buddies golf trip.  As someone that usually shoots in the mid to high 90s on golf trips, this was the first year I'd ever even been in contention.  

 

Then over xmas break I took about three weeks off practice.  When I got back to it, I was struggling, and then I kind of spiraled by changing things and panicing until I was back at what feels like rock bottom.  Hitting the ball straight enough, but fat and weak, with all of my irons 9-5 going about 130 carry.  It's a hell to which I'm unfortunately very familiar.  I took a lesson with my usual guy, and he noticed my backswing had regressed to my old sucked inside low and shallow look.  We worked on that for an hour and I left with a plan but no progress.  After a week of working on backswing, and maybe another of trying to sway off the ball less, get my weight forward, drop my hands more in transition, and lots of the stuff I have written down from lesson notes, I still made no progress.  I have a huge golf trip coming up this summer and I was starting to feel the pressure and hopleness.  I was having a long drive competition in the simulator with my son with ice cream on the line (Highly recommend this if you have kids), and he wanted to hit 7i.  He's 7 and he carries his 7 about 24 on average, so I set 30 yards as his goal for ice cream.  He managed to win that day carrying 35, but what's remarkable is that I refound the feel I'd lost.  I had this basically verbatim in my notes, but reading about it and feeling it are two different things.  I felt like I was just throwing the club outside, and then pivoting with my body through the ball.  My notes say I can't hit a good shot without fast arms.  My notes say I need to feel a release like a baseball swing.

 

My natural inclination is really a lot like what a lot of instruction was centered on during covid.  I know Gankas has caught a lot of flack this style of swing.  I don't think online instruction really set me on that path, but it certainly didn't do anything to stop me from my natural urge to spin out early.  I saw a couple Padraig Harrington videos about arm speed.  In one I can't find, he said that 90% or so of your power/distance comes from your arms, wrists, and hands.  I'm always so focused on my hips, squat, extension, etc., but regardless of your thoughts on the matter, that's just not where speed comes from.  I guess you can argue that your core is the motor of the swing, but I think it's pretty well established that an all arms swing is going to go farther than a tight all pivot swing.  In the video I can't find he even shows you the difference by hitting balls with almost no body turn and all arms and hands, and then another in which he basically holds his hinge and just pivots through as hard as he can.  This video is similar, but not quite the exact one I saw and then in the next one he and Pete discuss spinning out and being late to the ball.

 

 

 

 

I think a lot of my problem comes from a path issue.  I like to suck the club inside when I'm tired, when I'm over swinging, or when I'm just regressing to old bad habits.  If the club gets outside early, it's really hard to swing the arms hard and release the club.  Basically I'm busy compensating for that bad path and too busy trying to find contact to turn the hands and arms over.  What that feels like is dragging the club through impact with my body, but not swinging my arms at all.  A better backswing position is what allows me to find a position from which I can swing hard, but it's really the feeling of turning the hands and club over, which to me feels like a baseball swing, which helps my body subconciously know what to do.  If I get that feel, I have a better idea of where I need to be to start that feel and get the arms turning over earlier.

 

https://www.facebook.com/LarryRinkerGolf/videos/swing-the-golf-club-more-like-a-baseball-bat-to-get-the-feel-of-how-your-arms-an/1217194722430422/

 

This is basically what I have to do to find that baseball feel.  If you swing hard and let your arms turn over (release), then you can kind of feel what fast arms feel like.  You let your body react to your arm swing, rather have have the body/torso and shoulders drive the arms.  Granted, it'd not a cure all.  If I'm swaying off the ball I can't get back and my arms aren't going to save me.  But it sure seems like everytime I'm truely lost, when I just can't advance the ball, it's because I'm rotating my body and leaving my arms behind.  So I hope this helps someone.  For me, using the big muscles feels natural, is easier, and you get a lot of encouragement to start the downswing with the hips, and use the ground, get the hips open, and etc etc etc.  I can't tell you how much time I've wasted trying to bow my wrist, drop my hands, shallow the club, get my hands forward, push back off the lead leg, etc.  None of that will ever matter if you arms are pinned to your body and just moving at the same rate as your pivot.  If you're a spin out and get stuck type, the arm speed is what you're missing.  In that video I can't Patty says he thinks arm speed is the number one issue affecting amateur golfers.  That certainly feels like the case for me.  Even when I have it explicitly written down in my notes, it's easy to lose that feel and let the arms follow the body.  So I hope something as simple as swinging the club like a baseball, even upright like at a pitch, but really feeling what you have to do to get the club turning over and releasing is enough to get you out of your slump.

[Valtiel]

9 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I've been on a rollercoaster with my golf game.  I'm sure many of you have already though, "that's golf for you", but hear me out.  I started in about 2004 just playing a couple times a year with friends.  Started going on golf trips after that, and got serious around 2018-19.  In 2020 I started practicing almost every day in a simulator, I'd say at least an average of 3 times a week.  I've taken lessons with 5 instructors, with the same guy once for almost 3 years.  One year I may have great contact and hit an 8i 160 carry.  The next year I can't hit any iron over 130 (for year).  Long story short, I've had some very long and difficult slumps, which I've posted about in the past.

 

This past summer I broke 80 for the first time.  I shot in the low 80s once or twice previously, but last year I had a bunch of rounds 82-84, and then one day while out with my parents and daughter, not really focused on my own game but aware I was playing much better than usual, I sunk an unlikely putt, entered in a par on my watch on 18, and saw that'd I'd shot 79.  In November I won low gross on my buddies golf trip.  As someone that usually shoots in the mid to high 90s on golf trips, this was the first year I'd ever even been in contention.  

 

Then over xmas break I took about three weeks off practice.  When I got back to it, I was struggling, and then I kind of spiraled by changing things and panicing until I was back at what feels like rock bottom.  Hitting the ball straight enough, but fat and weak, with all of my irons 9-5 going about 130 carry.  It's a hell to which I'm unfortunately very familiar.  I took a lesson with my usual guy, and he noticed my backswing had regressed to my old sucked inside low and shallow look.  We worked on that for an hour and I left with a plan but no progress.  After a week of working on backswing, and maybe another of trying to sway off the ball less, get my weight forward, drop my hands more in transition, and lots of the stuff I have written down from lesson notes, I still made no progress.  I have a huge golf trip coming up this summer and I was starting to feel the pressure and hopleness.  I was having a long drive competition in the simulator with my son with ice cream on the line (Highly recommend this if you have kids), and he wanted to hit 7i.  He's 7 and he carries his 7 about 24 on average, so I set 30 yards as his goal for ice cream.  He managed to win that day carrying 35, but what's remarkable is that I refound the feel I'd lost.  I had this basically verbatim in my notes, but reading about it and feeling it are two different things.  I felt like I was just throwing the club outside, and then pivoting with my body through the ball.  My notes say I can't hit a good shot without fast arms.  My notes say I need to feel a release like a baseball swing.

 

My natural inclination is really a lot like what a lot of instruction was centered on during covid.  I know Gankas has caught a lot of flack this style of swing.  I don't think online instruction really set me on that path, but it certainly didn't do anything to stop me from my natural urge to spin out early.  I saw a couple Padraig Harrington videos about arm speed.  In one I can't find, he said that 90% or so of your power/distance comes from your arms, wrists, and hands.  I'm always so focused on my hips, squat, extension, etc., but regardless of your thoughts on the matter, that's just not where speed comes from.  I guess you can argue that your core is the motor of the swing, but I think it's pretty well established that an all arms swing is going to go farther than a tight all pivot swing.  In the video I can't find he even shows you the difference by hitting balls with almost no body turn and all arms and hands, and then another in which he basically holds his hinge and just pivots through as hard as he can.  This video is similar, but not quite the exact one I saw and then in the next one he and Pete discuss spinning out and being late to the ball.

 

 

 

 

I think a lot of my problem comes from a path issue.  I like to suck the club inside when I'm tired, when I'm over swinging, or when I'm just regressing to old bad habits.  If the club gets outside early, it's really hard to swing the arms hard and release the club.  Basically I'm busy compensating for that bad path and too busy trying to find contact to turn the hands and arms over.  What that feels like is dragging the club through impact with my body, but not swinging my arms at all.  A better backswing position is what allows me to find a position from which I can swing hard, but it's really the feeling of turning the hands and club over, which to me feels like a baseball swing, which helps my body subconciously know what to do.  If I get that feel, I have a better idea of where I need to be to start that feel and get the arms turning over earlier.

 

https://www.facebook.com/LarryRinkerGolf/videos/swing-the-golf-club-more-like-a-baseball-bat-to-get-the-feel-of-how-your-arms-an/1217194722430422/

 

This is basically what I have to do to find that baseball feel.  If you swing hard and let your arms turn over (release), then you can kind of feel what fast arms feel like.  You let your body react to your arm swing, rather have have the body/torso and shoulders drive the arms.  Granted, it'd not a cure all.  If I'm swaying off the ball I can't get back and my arms aren't going to save me.  But it sure seems like everytime I'm truely lost, when I just can't advance the ball, it's because I'm rotating my body and leaving my arms behind.  So I hope this helps someone.  For me, using the big muscles feels natural, is easier, and you get a lot of encouragement to start the downswing with the hips, and use the ground, get the hips open, and etc etc etc.  I can't tell you how much time I've wasted trying to bow my wrist, drop my hands, shallow the club, get my hands forward, push back off the lead leg, etc.  None of that will ever matter if you arms are pinned to your body and just moving at the same rate as your pivot.  If you're a spin out and get stuck type, the arm speed is what you're missing.  In that video I can't Patty says he thinks arm speed is the number one issue affecting amateur golfers.  That certainly feels like the case for me.  Even when I have it explicitly written down in my notes, it's easy to lose that feel and let the arms follow the body.  So I hope something as simple as swinging the club like a baseball, even upright like at a pitch, but really feeling what you have to do to get the club turning over and releasing is enough to get you out of your slump.

Arm speed and the lack thereof is definitely a very prevalent issue and i've posted those Padraig videos many times in response to it. Like you alluded to....going down the rabbit hole of all this "body driven swing" stuff really screws people up when they can't/don't use their hands/arms correctly. 

I was checking your post history to see if you had ever shared a swing video (didn't find one), and I was going to ask for one because of something you asked in a thread ages ago that didn't get a response:
 

Quote

So my question is for those that really understand the golf swing.  When you see a new student, or even just get paired with someone, or notice someone at the range.  Do you notice all their issues all at once?  Focus on the most glaring ones?  Do you ever have work on an issue that is not particularly immediately apparent (I'd imagine trackman data has made this almost a non-issue, but I'm mostly interested in a visual first impression)?  What's it like to see a flawed swing when you really understand the golf swing?

I will only speak for myself but curious what other instructors will say. The general answer here is yes, virtually all the most glaring issues are very easy to spot right away when you generally know what you're looking for. The reason is that, aesthetics aside, there are a pretty defined group of very common bad patterns that most people share that are at the root of most swing problems. They are also easy to spot because once you've learned those patterns you can not only see them but also see the equally common ways people try to intuitively compensate for them/attempt to fix them on their own. Everyone becomes a sort of cross section of these patterns and compensations, but where you go deeper is reverse engineering how they got there.

On one end some people have no clue and have always just approached things like a kid...intuitive and reactionary. Teaching that group how to become aware of what they're actually doing and feel different things, positions, sequences etc is the challenge there. Then on the other end you have people that sound more like you who have filled their heads with tons of different concepts/ideas in the pursuit of improving and often need a complete decluttering and reset to get rid of anything not beneficial to them. This is one of the common "poisons" in golf instruction, the fact that:

1) Virtually everyone has a set of defined tendencies/patterns in how they swing the club
2) Only *really* good golf instruction is able to tailor itself to exactly what that person and those patterns need
3) Every other kind of instruction has an equal chance of helping or hurting you, especially YouTube instruction going straight into your head without guidance

It's a "one man's poison is another man's medicine" kind of situation that you seem to have figured out part of. If your hands/arms are slow and you consume tons of "body driven swing" types of instruction you're going to make things worse on average. Conversely if you have super fast hands/arms and poor lower body fundamentals then it pays to focus on that, although the former is much more common than the latter here. 

If you're curious it would be good to post a video for all the reasons I mentioned above. Identifying the "slow arms" problem is a good start, but there is a good chance they are slow for reasons that happen very early that simply attempting to accelerate them really hard is serving a bandaid for. All these things are pretty simple to see. 

[bonvivantva]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

I was checking your post history to see if you had ever shared a swing video (didn't find one),

I have shared a few swing videos over the years, especially during covid, but that was before I started lessons.  Later in your post you talk about watching videos that don't pertain to your own specific issues, and I found swing advice from posting your swing similarly problematic.  Finding one in-person instructor seems better, but that's still no guarantee of improvement.

 

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

...and I was going to ask for one because of something you asked in a thread ages ago that didn't get a response:
 

I will only speak for myself but curious what other instructors will say. The general answer here is yes, virtually all the most glaring issues are very easy to spot right away when you generally know what you're looking for. The reason is that, aesthetics aside, there are a pretty defined group of very common bad patterns that most people share that are at the root of most swing problems. They are also easy to spot because once you've learned those patterns you can not only see them but also see the equally common ways people try to intuitively compensate for them/attempt to fix them on their own. Everyone becomes a sort of cross section of these patterns and compensations, but where you go deeper is reverse engineering how they got there.
 

 

You know I did kind of get a response on that.  During covid I did an online lesson with an instructor I'd wager most of y'all have heard of on here.  I've enjoyed his videos, and still hold him in high regard, but his analysis of my swing video left me wanting.  He basically said my swing looked pretty good until last parallel and then something just went wrong.  He couldn't put his finger on it.  You could say maybe because it's virtual, but I also went to the #2 instructor in my state for years and I only got worse.  I'm not blaming him, nor am I saying he wasn't a good instructor, but I genuinely don't think he was able to acertain the root cause of my issues.  I have all those practice notes from the lessons and it was like each lesson was just trying something new because nothing was working.  I think the best thing one could say in his favor was that I had so many things wrong he couldn't single out just one, or even focus on one, but I sincerely don't think that was the case.  One of the few things he repeated over the years was that I needed to, "rotate more."  I think for someone that spins out early that's the least productive thing you could possibly say...

 

Now my current coach immediately selected my inside backswing as enemy #1.  Then we worked on my jumping through impact/eearly extension.  Before things went off the rails, we were working on weight shift and keeping my shoulders closed longer.  But now we're sadly back to swaying off the ball and the inside takeaway because everything fell apart.  Long story short I've seen more than my fair share of instructors and while my swing is certainly constantly evolving, they haven't focused on the same issues, and there has been seemingly little consensus.  In two cases there has seemed to be very little idea of what is wrong or why.

 

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

On one end some people have no clue and have always just approached things like a kid...intuitive and reactionary. Teaching that group how to become aware of what they're actually doing and feel different things, positions, sequences etc is the challenge there. Then on the other end you have people that sound more like you who have filled their heads with tons of different concepts/ideas in the pursuit of improving and often need a complete decluttering and reset to get rid of anything not beneficial to them. This is one of the common "poisons" in golf instruction, the fact that:

1) Virtually everyone has a set of defined tendencies/patterns in how they swing the club
2) Only *really* good golf instruction is able to tailor itself to exactly what that person and those patterns need
3) Every other kind of instruction has an equal chance of helping or hurting you, especially YouTube instruction going straight into your head without guidance

It's a "one man's poison is another man's medicine" kind of situation that you seem to have figured out part of. If your hands/arms are slow and you consume tons of "body driven swing" types of instruction you're going to make things worse on average. Conversely if you have super fast hands/arms and poor lower body fundamentals then it pays to focus on that, although the former is much more common than the latter here. 

If you're curious it would be good to post a video for all the reasons I mentioned above. Identifying the "slow arms" problem is a good start, but there is a good chance they are slow for reasons that happen very early that simply attempting to accelerate them really hard is serving a bandaid for. All these things are pretty simple to see. 

 

I couldn't agree with you more on this.  My dad is a natural athelete.  He retired, picked up golf for the first time, and was a single digit handicap in a year or two.  When I try to talk to him about golf he is blissfully unaware.  Weight shift, shallowing, rotation, face to path, it's like a foreign lanugage to him.  I also had an instructor, by far my least favorite and certainly the poorest match, who was also a natural athelete and hated my questions and was constantly telling me to stop thinking.  While I can appreciate that approach in it's purest form, I think it's hard to tell someone to squat back and drop the hands so you can come from the inside while simutaleously telling them not to think and to just swing.  He was convinced that I was a Gankas devotee that sucked up all that youtube/instagram had to offer and just came to lessons to argue with him.  That couldn't have been farther from the truth.  I think the true of the matter is that both he and the Gankas types can really get you away from an athletic swing.  Dropping the hands behind you and then twisting your hips at the ball doesn't feel powerful because it's not.  I think instructors like that assume that you know that you need to drive the swing athletically with the arms, like an athlete would just instinctively know, or someone that watch the Patty video would have heard, but I genuinely believed that if I just put the club in whatever position he wanted and twisted my core hard magic would happen.

 

I also agree that most golf advice/instruction is not axiomatic nor universally applicable but if Pádraig Harrington says 90% or more of amateurs need faster arms, I think that's as close to axiomatic as you're going to get.  My handicap was 10.8 or something like that last year at it's lowest, but I'd bet the faster arms advice could benefit the vast majority of golfers at a 10 or worse, maybe even lower.  But even if I'm wrong about that, I do think that the baseball swing feel.  Feeling the club fully release and feeling your arms turn over, I think that feel just helps you to refind your athletic swing.  If you swing the club baseball style as hard as you can, you're not looking for positions or worried about weight shift or hip tilt or your shoulders or how open you are.  You're getting as close as you can to being intuititve and reactionary.  In fact, I think my body really does just react to that feel somehow.  When I'm trying to refind my swing, I can get that baseball release feel, but when I try to translate that into a golf swing, I'm usually late.  Like I'll start a swing with a full release intention, but at first I'm getting the club outside or spinning my hips to early still.  I've got to find a position that lets me make that baseball swing feel.  So I appreciate it's not a cure-all, but I do think it's the best way to work back towards an athletic and as close to intuitive of a golf swing as possible for someone that does not find anything about the golf swing natural or intuitive.   

 

To summerize, I think you need to maintain an athletic and powerful feel in your swing.  I think it's too easy to assume you're doing too much wrong and then let go of what feels powerful.  You look at any smooth swing, Freddy, Ernie, Nelly, etc, and maybe you think you can just swing easy and hit the ball well.  At to some extent maybe that's true, but those smooth looking swings are still powerful and athletic, just deceptively so.  If you're a 7 handicap, maybe ignore all this, but if you're read this far because you're in a multi-year slump, because despite lessons you're still not carrying your 7i farther than 130, I think you might want to take some baseball swings, feel that full release, and then figure out how to maintain that feel with a golf swing.  The last three weeks, I think the longest I hit a 6i was 160 carry.  I'd estimate the average I hit a 6i was 145-155.  During the long drive competition with my son, I carried the 6i 200 on the dot.  Carried it over 180 a few more times just to make sure I could.  I genuinely think the difference was letting go of everything but the feel of athleticism I feel by making those baseball style swings.

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

also agree that most golf advice/instruction is not axiomatic nor universally applicable but if Pádraig Harrington says 90% or more of amateurs need faster arms, I think that's as close to axiomatic as you're going to get.  My handicap was 10.8 or something like that last year at it's lowest, but I'd bet the faster arms advice could benefit the vast majority of golfers at a 10 or worse, maybe even lower.  But even if I'm wrong about that, I do think that the baseball swing feel.  Feeling the club fully release and feeling your arms turn over, I think that feel just helps you to refind your athletic swing.

Monte, Iacas, AMG and many others talk about faster arms for amateurs as well. We see it in pretty much every swing video posted here.

 

a baseball swing is a slice swing, not sure that is the feel one should be chasing.

an athletic swing comes from having a good gap and proper sequencing.

 

9 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

If you swing the club baseball style as hard as you can, you're not looking for positions or worried about weight shift or hip tilt or your shoulders or how open you are.  You're getting as close as you can to being intuititve and reactionary.

Positions are just points the club passes through; nobody should be thinking about them and they really aren’t what teachers teach. training the proper mechanics and playing golf on the course not golf swing allows one to not worry about positions, etc.

 

12 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

When I'm trying to refind my swing, I can get that baseball release feel, but when I try to translate that into a golf swing, I'm usually late. 

You’re late because the baseball swing is a bad swing for golf and creates late arms/hands and produces a slice. Myself and other former baseball players on here have talked about as has Monte.

 

13 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

To summerize, I think you need to maintain an athletic and powerful feel in your swing.  I think it's too easy to assume you're doing too much wrong and then let go of what feels powerful

The problem people have is constantly chasing a feel rather than letting the proper mechanics create a feel. Another problem is people dont know how to practice or make a swing change, and many don’t give anything enough time to work on something before moving onto the next thing.

 

15 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

You look at any smooth swing, Freddy, Ernie, Nelly, etc, and maybe you think you can just swing easy and hit the ball well.

They aren’t swing easy, several videos have recently been posted on here of Freddie saying he’s trying to hit his 7i as hard as possible. They look like they are swinging easy because they are using the proper mechanics and sequencing, which makes things easier than having to manipulate the club/swing because if bad mechanics.

 

17 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I think you might want to take some baseball swings, feel that full release, and then figure out how to maintain that feel with a golf swing

Nope bad advice as previously stated above 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

If you post a swing here @Valtiel can 100% be trusted to help you. 

[bonvivantva]

33 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Positions are just points the club passes through; nobody should be thinking about them and they really aren’t what teachers teach. training the proper mechanics and playing golf on the course not golf swing allows one to not worry about positions, etc.

 

I can assure you that's not the case.  My evidence is anecdotal but extensive.  Maybe better instructors or different ones don't, but I've had a wide range of experiences in which I was told to think about positions, and try to find my way into them.

 

36 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

an athletic swing comes from having a good gap and proper sequencing.

 

It's worth clarifying that I'm not a baseball player, and I do think the term, "baseball" has colored your response.  When I say baseball swing I guess I just mean a full release or even more specifcally, feeling the hands turn over.  I've hit a few baseballs but I've never even played a competitive game of baseball.  When I did play with friends, I swung hard with my arms, which was fairly intuitive.  With golf, I feel like I'm firing my hips and twisting my body, which as you can guess doesn't lead to much power.  When I say I'm late, I think what I mean is that the club hits the ground fat, over the top, open, etc., and I haven't had a chance to squre the club face.  So essentially I think our perceived disagreement is more semantic than not.  I used the term baseball swing because of that drill I linked to.  If you can feel the club swing and feel the club turn over, then if you aren't able to do that in a golf swing you can also feel the difference and try to find it.  It provides a path forward.

 

41 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Nope bad advice as previously stated above 

 

This seems harsher than necessary.  I'd assume we all find golf pretty frustrating.  The advice, if you want to call it that, is for people struggling with power and athleticism.  If you're already hitting the ball a good distance, if you're a lower handicaper, then I agree what I said probably isn't applicable.  But for my intended audience, those who are totally lost with no feel for the golf swing, I do think that swing the club on a vertical plane (maybe not techincally a baseball swing), and feeling the club turn over can help you find your way back to an athletic swing.  Unless someone is truly lost, tries this, and it doesn't help, I think it's unreasonble to unequivocally dismiss it as bad advice.

[bonvivantva]

49 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

If you post a swing here @Valtiel can 100% be trusted to help you. 

 

I'm taking lessons as we speak and I'm happy with my current instructor.  I appreciate the suggestion though.  I went out earlier today and was hitting my old distances.  Still have plenty of work to do, but golfs a lot more fun when you can advance the ball.

 

I posted more because I thought my experience might save someone some time and frustration.  

[GoGoErky]

2 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

can assure you that's not the case.  My evidence is anecdotal but extensive.  Maybe better instructors or different ones don't, but I've had a wide range of experiences in which I was told to think about positions, and try to find my way into the

Good instructors don’t teach positions. Two of them on here recently talked about this. There are plenty of instructors out there that aren’t good at teaching.

 

The good ones teach mechanics. Sure they may have someone hit balls from certain positions but they aren’t teaching tnem

 

5 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

It's worth clarifying that I'm not a baseball player, and I do think the term, "baseball" has colored your response.  When I say baseball swing I guess I just mean a full release or even more specifcally, feeling the hands turn over.  I've hit a few baseballs but I've never even played a competitive game of baseball.  When I did play with friends, I swung hard with my arms, which was fairly intuitive.  With golf, I feel like I'm firing my hips and twisting my body, which as you can guess doesn't lead to much power.  When I say I'm late, I think what I mean is that the club hits the ground fat, over the top, open, etc., and I haven't had a chance to squre the club face.  So essentially I think our perceived disagreement is more semantic than not.  I used the term baseball swing because of that drill I linked to.  If you can feel the club swing and feel the club turn over, then if you aren't able to do that in a golf swing you can also feel the difference and try to find it.  It provides a path forward.

Arms swings in baseball and golf aren’t really good ways to swing in either sport, both sports are led from proper hip movement. Yes the arms move and have a role but if your not moving the hips proper they will be weak swings and not much control.

 

Yeah firing the hips is one of the worst swing thoughts that came out, it gets the body out of sync and the arms lagging behind.

 

what your describing with over the top, bottoming out early (hitting the ground fat), over the top are all from out of sequenced swing, open, some if not all from arms lagging. 
 

12 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

This seems harsher than necessary.  I'd assume we all find golf pretty frustrating.  The advice, if you want to call it that, is for people struggling with power and athleticism. 

Recommending a baseball swing is bad advice, won’t rehash what I said above about why. If you don’t mean baseball swing then don’t use the term. 
 

people struggling with power and athleticism have issues that start before they even get the club to p2 or p3. The clubs is out of position from improper setup, grip, use of the wrist and hips. Might be all, might be some, but they are all the reasons. Fixing the issues to get to a good position at p3 goes a long way to having a chance at a good athletic and powerful swing.

 

16 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

But for my intended audience, those who are totally lost with no feel for the golf swing, I do think that swing the club on a vertical plane (maybe not techincally a baseball swing), and feeling the club turn over can help you find your way back to an athletic swing.  Unless someone is truly lost, tries this, and it doesn't help, I think it's unreasonble to unequivocally dismiss it as bad advice.

Chasing feels are bandaids. Feels should come from the mechanics of the swing. Those chasing feels stay in the struggling with playing good golf.

 

want to get better at golf work on the mechanics of the swing

[bonvivantva]

14 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Recommending a baseball swing is bad advice, won’t rehash what I said above about why. If you don’t mean baseball swing then don’t use the term. 

 I said, "find that baseball feel" and then described what I meant by that in detail.  You got held up by whatever baseball means to you and yet you haven't explained what specifically you object to in terms of the baseball analogy.  While I agree that swinging like the linked video on a vertical plane is more accurate, it's also less descriptive and not necessarily better.  I could be in the wrong here, but I wouldn't be alone.  The linked video even says, "Swing the golf club more like a baseball bat to get the feel of how your arms and hands rotate when you swing a golf club."  

 

18 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Chasing feels are bandaids. Feels should come from the mechanics of the swing. Those chasing feels stay in the struggling with playing good golf.

 

want to get better at golf work on the mechanics of the swing

 

There's a lot going on here.  First of all I think a lot of feel players would disagree with you in general.  A lot of successful and famous ones at that.  Not to go way off the rails on this conversation, but in lieu of trackman data and video analysis, everybody is a feel player, and people that don't video themselves or use launch monitor data make up the vast majority of golfers, but I digress.  Especially since I don't think of myself as a feel player.  I think the best way to simplify what I was trying to say is that there is a feel that helps me get my body to work athletically.  I think that this feel, the club turning over and fully releasing, helps me remember what a good swing feels like.  Sometimes I can get lost in mechanics and forget the most important part of the swing, which is to be athletic.  I think the reason so many different types of swings work is because you really just need to be althletic and then get to the right impact positon.  I personally can drift too far from that, but the drill I linked to helps me find my way back when things go wrong.

25 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

people struggling with power and athleticism have issues that start before they even get the club to p2 or p3. The clubs is out of position from improper setup, grip, use of the wrist and hips. Might be all, might be some, but they are all the reasons. Fixing the issues to get to a good position at p3 goes a long way to having a chance at a good athletic and powerful swing.

When I get that full release turnover feel, I think it helps prevent me from getting out of position.  It helps my mechanics because I know I can't get there if I sway my upper body forward, if I hang back, etc.  What Patty talks about in the first video at about the 1 minute mark is really my biggest issue.  He talks about speeding up the arms and feeling acceleration.  When my arms are reallly moving, my hips just do what they're supposed to do.  I don't have to think about it.  A great example is from yesterday.  I just wasn't feeling my hands turn over no matter how much I did that baseball style swing.  Then I realized I was death gripping the club.  I put it more in my fingers and relaxed a little, and then the club started turning over no problem.  I think a lot of people would see that as a feel helping you improve mechanics.

 

The bottom line is that the baseball drill helps me feel what I can be missing and find my way back.  Maybe it can help you too.

 

Anywhere, he's someone more skilled and knowledgeable than most sharing a bunch of feels that may help your mechanics (for 20 minutes).  And although Patty does specifically address who he believes his intended audience to be, he also states many times that the advice may not work for everyone, but gives you plenty of things to try.  Then maybe my favorite part is when he concludes the video by saying the best thing you can do, especially for kids, is to just let them feel their way into better clubhead speed.  Just experiment and do whatever it takes to make the numbers go up...

 

[PedronNiall]

You're all over the place. You come here asking for insights, you're told that while certain facts about the swing exist the reality is sound fundamentals are the make or break, you keep adding long posts on thoughts and feels and random Padraig vids, and somewhere above you're convinced you just need to find that baseball swing feel and you'll be there.

 

The generalization of the baseball swing to the golf swing is only in that neither are about crazy plane changes; both follow a relatively fixed arc. Monte has clips where he explains that. It's for people with glaring flaws in their swing path, not something you should be trying to digest to hone what is a decent beginning to a better swing down the road. A good golf swing is far more akin to throwing a pitch, hence why great pitchers end up as scratch or better and great hitters are often left banging 320 yard drives out into the right hand tree line. 

 

If you trust your instructor then listen to him and stay off of YouTube unless you know what you're trying to digest and can avoid going down rabbit holes. I honestly can't see anything in here someone else having trouble is going to stumble across and make sense of without also drowning in all the things you're tossing out. 

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

said, "find that baseball feel" and then described what I meant by that in detail.  You got held up by whatever baseball means to you and yet you haven't explained what specifically you object to in terms of the baseball analogy.  While I agree that swinging like the linked video on a vertical plane is more accurate, it's also less descriptive and not necessarily better.  I could be in the wrong here, but I wouldn't be alone.  The linked video even says, "Swing the golf club more like a baseball bat to get the feel of how your arms and hands rotate when you swing a golf club." 

Feels that aren’t based on the mechanics of the swing are bad to chase and also bad advice. Feels change all the time and if one keeps chasing feels they aren’t going to improve. You can call it whatever you want it’s bad advice.

 

The mechanics of the swing should create the feel one needs. Learning proper mechanics is how one gets better, not from some random feeling. You even talked about how the baseball swing feel has you getting late, how you revert back to old swings and speeds. This should be an indication it’s not good.

 

 

[bonvivantva]

43 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

You're all over the place. You come here asking for insights

 

Did I?  Am I giving advice or asking for insights?  Y'all are all over the place...

 

44 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

The generalization of the baseball swing to the golf swing is only in that neither are about crazy plane changes; both follow a relatively fixed arc. Monte has clips where he explains that. It's for people with glaring flaws in their swing path, not something you should be trying to digest to hone what is a decent beginning to a better swing down the road. A good golf swing is far more akin to throwing a pitch, hence why great pitchers end up as scratch or better and great hitters are often left banging 320 yard drives out into the right hand tree line.

 

It's a feel that helps me refind my athletic swing when things go off the rails.  A guardrail if you will.  Sounds like you agree that others feel similarly/have explained similar concepts.  I agree with you that it's more basic of a concept, if I've correctly understood you.  That's more or less what I was trying to say, that the feel gets me back to the basics when I overcook things.

37 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Feels that aren’t based on the mechanics of the swing are bad to chase and also bad advice. Feels change all the time and if one keeps chasing feels they aren’t going to improve. You can call it whatever you want it’s bad advice.

 

The mechanics of the swing should create the feel one needs. Learning proper mechanics is how one gets better, not from some random feeling. You even talked about how the baseball swing feel has you getting late, how you revert back to old swings and speeds. This should be an indication it’s not good.

 

I said that I can feel late, yes, but not that the baseball swing feel makes me late.  What I actually said if you look back is that the baseball swing helps me notice when I'm late, which if anything allows me to sequence better and manage the face better.  I said when I revert back to my old bad habits the baseball swing feel helps me find my way home to better sequencing, if you will, better mechanics.  If you were right that the baseball feel was making things worse, causing the regression, then I'd say you'd be right about it being unhelpful.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

 

Did I?  Am I giving advice or asking for insights?  Y'all are all over the place...

 

 

It's a feel that helps me refind my athletic swing when things go off the rails.  A guardrail if you will.  Sounds like you agree that others feel similarly/have explained similar concepts.  I agree with you that it's more basic of a concept, if I've correctly understood you.  That's more or less what I was trying to say, that the feel gets me back to the basics when I overcook things.

 

I said that I can feel late, yes, but not that the baseball swing feel makes me late.  What I actually said if you look back is that the baseball swing helps me notice when I'm late, which if anything allows me to sequence better and manage the face better.  I said when I revert back to my old bad habits the baseball swing feel helps me find my way home to better sequencing, if you will, better mechanics.  If you were right that the baseball feel was making things worse, causing the regression, then I'd say you'd be right about it being unhelpful.

Here’s the drill you posted. I doubt your going to find many good golfers in this position with the hands rolled.

 

 

compare that to Tiger 

 

Edited March 9 by GoGoErky

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

Did I?  Am I giving advice or asking for insights?  Y'all are all over the place...

 

If you weren't looking for feedback or discussion in an open forum then all you're doing is some stream of consciousness brain vomit and I'm unsure how that would do much to help anyone else searching later on. There's not much coherent to all you said. Not sure how you getting flippant is supposed to add anything but your choice. Bottom line is there's nothing succinct or clear for anyone to happen across from what you've posted above about losing your only feel that matters, which is the baseball swing, but only when you feel it in a different way than it's supposed to be felt, and how you're questioning what Padraig said, but you know he's wrong, and so on.

 

10 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

I saw a couple Padraig Harrington videos about arm speed.  In one I can't find, he said that 90% or so of your power/distance comes from your arms, wrists, and hands.  I'm always so focused on my hips, squat, extension, etc., but regardless of your thoughts on the matter, that's just not where speed comes from.

 

Along with what others have already posted here, you can go into the recent thread on Wyndham Clark's TPI session and there's a very straightforward explanation of the data on velocity graphs showing the parts of the body Padraig discussed as being integral for speed are indeed those pesky hands/arms/wrists. The only thing faster than they are on those graphs: the club. If the arm system lags behind, any speed your lower body was building and transferring up your torso is dumped. If your wrists don't hinge and unhinge properly? Again, speed dump to Bad Times Land. Padraig maybe knows a... tiny bit... tiny... small bit about the golf swing.

[bonvivantva]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Here’s the drill you posted. I doubt your going to find many good golfers in this position with the hands rolled.

 

 

compare that to Tiger 

 

I'm not sure comparing a drill to a swing is fair, but spend your time however you like

[bonvivantva]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

If you weren't looking for feedback or discussion in an open forum then all you're doing is some stream of consciousness brain vomit and I'm unsure how that would do much to help anyone else searching later on. There's not much coherent to all you said. Not sure how you getting flippant is supposed to add anything but your choice. Bottom line is there's nothing succinct or clear for anyone to happen across from what you've posted above about losing your only feel that matters, which is the baseball swing, but only when you feel it in a different way than it's supposed to be felt, and how you're questioning what Padraig said, but you know he's wrong, and so on.

 

 

Along with what others have already posted here, you can go into the recent thread on Wyndham Clark's TPI session and there's a very straightforward explanation of the data on velocity graphs showing the parts of the body Padraig discussed as being integral for speed are indeed those pesky hands/arms/wrists. The only thing faster than they are on those graphs: the club. If the arm system lags behind, any speed your lower body was building and transferring up your torso is dumped. If your wrists don't hinge and unhinge properly? Again, speed dump to Bad Times Land. Padraig maybe knows a... tiny bit... tiny... small bit about the golf swing.

 

I was simply sharing a feel that worked for me.  If anyone is questioning Padraig or being flippant, it's certainly you.  As far as being coherent goes, you've agreed that arm speed is important, and stated that the arms, hards and wrists drive clubhead speed.  Maybe you can coherently explain how you disagree with me or the linked videos, since you haven't managed to do so yet?

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

I'm not sure comparing a drill to a swing is fair, but spend your time however you like

You said it was a feeling earlier, now it’s a drill. 

 

either way the drill/feeling is a bad one. We know the lead wrist moves towards extension at and after impact, it doesn’t roll over as shown by Larry, so why do a drill that creates an improper pattern? 

This is why feelings should be found from the mechanics of the swing. Drills help create the proper mechanics, which is why in NTC cast B mimics what happens with the lead wrist in a real

swimg.

 

 

 

Edited March 9 by GoGoErky

[iacas]

9 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

Did I?  Am I giving advice or asking for insights?

 

From where I'm sitting… yes.

 

I think — and I could be wrong, and this comes with no judgment — that you have applied more like a series of band-aids that you don't practice as well as you could/should. I think you've come on here with a mixture of asking for help/questions with your swing (but no videos), and a bit of defending your current and past approach… with a poor understanding of how to prioritize, how to practice, how the body works, how feels work…

 

I think what you need to do is this:

• find your priority piece right now.
• understand that it'll take a long time to actually change it.
• begin working on it with discipline, evaluating at every step along the way, with feedback (cameras/mirrors, "stations," obstructions/etc.).

 

I've skimmed the topic, but you've been mildly adversarial when people who know quite a bit are offering some bits of knowledge and trying to help you. I concur with the "you're all over the place."

 

I think you likely need to re-evaluate your grip and setup, and if your early takeaway is an issue… work on that for a few months (probably), as it cascades into a series of problems. And changing a habit is hard.

 

Do this away from here if you want — if you like and trust your instructor, use him or her. If you want people's help here, video is a must. Feel ain't real, but you can derive feels from doing the proper mechanics and seeing what it feels like. The mechanics are just the "real." That's all.

 

Edited March 9 by iacas
Hit enter too soon

[GoGoErky]

10 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

Did I?  Am I giving advice or asking for insights?  Y'all are all over the place...

You did. All the quotes below are you giving advice. 

19 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

So I hope something as simple as swinging the club like a baseball, even upright like at a pitch, but really feeling what you have to do to get the club turning over and releasing is enough to get you out of your slump.

 

17 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

But even if I'm wrong about that, I do think that the baseball swing feel.  Feeling the club fully release and feeling your arms turn over, I think that feel just helps you to refind your athletic swing.  If you swing the club baseball style as hard as you can, you're not looking for positions or worried about weight shift or hip tilt or your shoulders or how open you are.  You're getting as close as you can to being intuititve and reactionary.  In fact, I think my body really does just react to that feel somehow

 

17 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

so.  If you're a 7 handicap, maybe ignore all this, but if you're read this far because you're in a multi-year slump, because despite lessons you're still not carrying your 7i farther than 130, I think you might want to take some baseball swings, feel that full release, and then figure out how to maintain that feel with a golf swing.

 

16 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

But for my intended audience, those who are totally lost with no feel for the golf swing, I do think that swing the club on a vertical plane (maybe not techincally a baseball swing), and feeling the club turn over can help you find your way back to an athletic swing.  Unless someone is truly lost, tries this, and it doesn't help, I think it's unreasonble to unequivocally dismiss it as bad advice.

 

[bonvivantva]

8 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

You said it was a feeling earlier, now it’s a drill. 

 

either way the drill/feeling is a bad one. We know the lead wrist moves towards extension at and after impact, it doesn’t roll over as shown by Larry, so why do a drill that creates an improper pattern? 

This is why feelings should be found from the mechanics of the swing. Drills help create the proper mechanics, which is why in NTC cast B mimics what happens with the lead wrist in a real

swimg.

 

I have a feeling that comes from that drill.  You actually called it a drill.  I linked to the drill.  You're nitpicking me man, don't you have better things to do?  If you don't like the drill, and don't believe in feels, that's fine.  You may be right that it's not a good drill for most, but let's chill with the nitpicking and nonsense, yeah?

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

You did. All the quotes below are you giving advice. 

 

You said I was all over the place and asking for insights.  Would you like to go back through my posts and show me where I asked for insights?  I posted a drill that worked for me and a couple of Patty videos about arm swing that I thought were related.  I never asked for help with my swing or advice.  I just posted a drill and a couple Patty videos about arm speed that helped me hoping they would help others as well.  I was and am open to discussion but for whatever reason you're more interested in arguing semantics, terms, etc.  I understand that you don't like the baseball drill.  I understand that you don't think chasing feels is a path to success.  I'm not certain you're wrong about those things.  I do think the drill I posted could help people who are lost and have lost the feeling of athleticism.   

 

To Iacas, thanks for the response.  I agree with your post.  I'll be the first to admit that my swing is just bandaids and compensations, but I don't think I'm alone in that.  What I maybe failed to express earlier is that when I'm taking lessons, putting foam noodles out to try to keep from sucking the club inside, watching the mirror behind me, reviewing video with my coach, etc etc., I can often go down the wrong path.  I'd imagine that can happen to anyone.  Everyone makes mistakes or tried to do something in the wrong way on occasion.  When I'm on the wrong track, one common thread seems to be leaving my arms out of the swing too much.  The drill I posted helps me remember to keep the arms active and not just rely on my body.  It seems to give me enough speed and power to get back to trying to work on the things my coach is trying to teach me.  In the longer Patty video, he talks about getting a beginners swing speed up, and then, after they can do what by whatever means necessary, refining the swing from there.  That's not me saying that, it's him, but I'm inclined to agree.  While I'm not a beginner, making big changes to your swing can make you feel that way.  Like you're relearning your swing or relearning the game.  All I'm saying is that the baseball drill I linked to helps me find that speed again when I lose it.  Maybe I'm wrong that it will help people, but the Patty video talks about trying different things, and doing whatever leads to more speed.  In any event, I apprecate your post, and the time you took to help me and others.  I also appreciate the civility.

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

When I'm on the wrong track, one common thread seems to be leaving my arms out of the swing too much.

 

You're jumping ahead way, way too far.

 

26 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

All I'm saying is that the baseball drill I linked to helps me find that speed again when I lose it.

 

I don't care about the "baseball drill" for the downswing when your backswing (or even setup and grip right now) are likely your priority.

 

26 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I also appreciate the civility.

 

I haven't seen anyone not being civil, man. Just a guy saying "don't you have better things to do?" to people trying to give freely of their time in trying to help…

 

Edit to add: even if you were working on downswing stuff, rolling your hands over as shown in that one image… eh. I'd generally say no, don't do that.

 

Edited March 9 by iacas
added

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

have a feeling that comes from that drill.  You actually called it a drill.  I linked to the drill.  You're nitpicking me man, don't you have better things to do?  If you don't like the drill, and don't believe in feels, that's fine.  You may be right that it's not a good drill for most, but let's chill with the nitpicking and nonsense, yeah?

I referred to it in the manner you did.

 

im not nitpicking im pointing out the flaws in what your posting and how its not helpful to anyone and is bad info.

 

Im trying to help not only you but the readers who come in here and read. It’s important that everyone has accurate information. Saying use a baseball drill/feel, then claim it’s not really baseball but how your describing the release, despite posting a video that says to swing like baseball. The golf club doesn’t get swung like a baseball bat. The rolling of the hands in the backswing and downswing are not how the golf swing works and is bad for everyone regardless of handicap.

 

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

You said I was all over the place and asking for insights.  Would you like to go back through my posts and show me where I asked for insights

Misquoting me, I never said you were asking for insights, but you are all over the place.

 

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

  I posted a drill that worked for me and a couple of Patty videos about arm swing that I thought were related.  I never asked for help with my swing or advice.  I just posted a drill and a couple Patty videos about arm speed that helped me hoping they would help others as well.  I was and am open to discussion but for whatever reason you're more interested in arguing semantics, terms, etc.  I understand that you don't like the baseball drill.  I understand that you don't think chasing feels is a path to success.  I'm not certain you're wrong about those things.  I do think the drill I posted could help people who are lost and have lost the feeling of athleticism.   

I’m not arguing semantics, you’re failing to realize that what you posted about the baseball swing is bad information and it’s not something that works long term and will cause more problems than it fixes and I’m trying to convey that to all readers.

 

that drill is not relevant to the Paddy drills and the paddy drills have been posted many times in this section because they are useful.

 

im not wrong about chasing feels being the wrong path to success. The driving ranges around the world are full of bad golfers doing just that and never improving, there are videos in this section that do the same. Not to mention one of the instructors on the site also posted yesterday that you get feels from the mechanics of the swing.

 

Not to be blunt but the drill won’t help people and will hurt them. I won’t repeat again why, it’s bad advice to recommend that drill.

 

 

[bonvivantva]

You know what, y'all are right.  I'm not qualified to give advice.  I was just trying to talk about a feel I had that worked for me, and might work for others.  But I lack credibility.  Probably anyone that isn't a famous successful golfer lacks credibility.  So if you're reading this, ignore me, but maybe watch the videos and listen to the real experts...

 

 

Edited March 9 by bonvivantva

[GoGoErky]

42 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

You know what, y'all are right.  I'm not qualified to give advice.  I was just trying to talk about a feel I had that worked for me, and might work for others.  But I lack credibility.  Probably anyone that isn't a famous successful golfer lacks credibility.  So if you're reading this, ignore me, but maybe watch the videos and listen to the real experts...

 

 

Feels are just that feels. They are only relevant to the person and very rarely translate to another golfer.

 

Iacas posted not that long ago giving back to back lessons for golfers with the same issue and had to use two different feels.

 

Here’s some nitpicking for you. Taking a swing without a ball is pointless. 
 

if you want to analyze slow the video down and watch the swing. That motion of the baseball swing produced a wide open face which is going to cause slices. The good golfers are going to do what your other video posted and roll the arms and they are going to end up with a two way miss and will have no idea where the ball is going. If they don’t time the release they hit the ball yo

the right, when the over correct they pull it.

 

How do I know? Because as I said earlier every baseball player who picks up golf has this issue. The ones that don’t are pitches because they know how to transfer pressure and move the lower body properly.

 

so when looking at and recommending drill you have to understand what they do and what potential issues come from them. Baseball swing in golf = bad

Edited March 9 by GoGoErky

[GoGoErky]

Nothing against Paddy but this guy has far more teaching experience 

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2039634-going-all-in-on-external-focus-of-attention/?do=findComment&comment=25736032

[GoGoErky]

The syncing of the arms aka speeding them up is nothing new.

 

Heres a drill from 11 years ago from

iteach that works on that. It creates proper swing mechanics as well so easier to replicate on the course when things start to derail. Theres a thread somewhere on here that dives into the drill as well

 

 

[wagolfer7]

21 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Nothing against Paddy but this guy has far more teaching experience 

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2039634-going-all-in-on-external-focus-of-attention/?do=findComment&comment=25736032

 

Come on man.  

 

Paddy knows a lot about golf and has some really helpful videos. 

 

Monte is a great teacher and player as well. You don't have to make it seem like one is better than the other. Multiple good resources and different drills / ideas is better than one. 

 

If you watch Padraig series he's really big on recentering. Getting the weight forward.  Doing the step drill a lot. He told that guy to swing like a baseball bat to get him to transfer his weight to the lead side earlier and it worked for that guy. Is it going to make him a scratch golfer? No.  But it solved what Paddy saw as a big issue for him.  I wouldn't say that's bad advice. 

 

 

[bonvivantva]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Here’s some nitpicking for you. Taking a swing without a ball is pointless. 

More.  More nitpicking you mean.

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Feels are just that feels. They are only relevant to the person and very rarely translate to another golfer.

I actually really like this video that disputes your, "im not wrong about chasing feels being the wrong path to success" comment with your prefered instructor (I'm also on golfwrx, so I'm also probably a fan, yeah?)

 

On 3/8/2025 at 3:09 PM, GoGoErky said:

Nope bad advice as previously stated above 

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Baseball swing in golf = bad

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts - BERTRAND RUSSELL 

 

Maybe figure out where I found this quote and then see if it speaks to you at all...  I may not be right about my feel or whether or not that feel or drill could help others, but I think it could so I put it out there.  I don't think it will help everyone, but I think it could help some, especially those who are lost and can't find an athletic swing.  After finding that Patty video in which he advocates for EXACTLY the same thing, I'm pretty sure it's not terrible advice for everyone despite your dogged and unquestioning persistance otherwise.  Anyways, I think I've said what I set out to say.  

Edited March 9 by bonvivantva

[iacas]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Iacas posted not that long ago giving back to back lessons for golfers with the same issue and had to use two different feels.

 

To be clear, I said they had virtually opposite feels for the same thing.

 

I find that some people that have to feel forearm rotation at the top have to feel like they rotate the club across the line, but some people feel as though they're laying the club off more. That's a common-ish one where people often surprise you by what it feels like.

 

This might be a busy day for my list. 

[SNIPERBBB]

58 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I actually really like this video that disputes your, "im not wrong about chasing feels being the wrong path to success" comment with your prefered instructor (I'm also on golfwrx, so I'm also probably a fan, yeah?)

The problems with chasing A feel is its short term at best. What ends up happening is the more your work on that feel/drill the more exaggerated you start to make that feel in your swing. Then you are back to square one. Been down that road too many times myself. Found one that feel that got me going for a while, so i l keep working on that drill until I start having the opposite problems that the drill/feel was trying to address.