Embedded ball in mud, inches from concrete drainage channel - free relief?

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, sui generis said:

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I suspect that most "Rulies" consider 2019 to be a watershed major improvement in the written Rules. 😉

 

Agree.

 

I cannot judge the language or choice of words but many Rules are now much more clearly written than pre-2019.

[Socrates]

12 hours ago, sui generis said:

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I suspect that most "Rulies" consider 2019 to be a watershed major improvement in the written Rules. 😉

Yes, my opinion, but I just felt that they brought in an element of vagueness by being more general on certain things.  I still remember that they did away with the interpretations and initially stated that there would be no need for clarifications going forward.  That didn't last long.  There are some things that are better about the New Rules, but I don't think they needed to "burn down the house" to do it.

[Imp]

I think many people skipped over my initial post where I explicitly stated:

 

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I would say the course *would* know what relief is appropriate given it's their course and probably have been asked multiple times. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bulletin board in the clubhouse explaining their status. 

 

A logical person would look around, see stakes around ponds and other waterways clearly marked, not see stakes around known structures that are usually (I admit, not all the time - i.e. courses that don't use markings at all) covered by MLR F20, and would proceed as if MLR F20 was in play. For a casual round. Then go in and say "welp, they're not MLR F20, I'll take the strokes/loss of hole. " - if they were not indeed covered. 

 

In a tourney, their status would already be known, yeah? 

 

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You're going against the plain wording of the Definition of Penalty Area, which includes "a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open watercourse (even if not containing water).  

I submit to the jury that MLR F20 does not call the item in question a " surface drainage ditch" but instead a "concrete drainage channel". I would staunchly argue (over beers of course) the validity of associating one with the other, beyond having the same word "drainage". If MLR20 was for concrete lined surface drainage ditches, they should have used that exact phrasing (as they have been careful in many other parts of the rules/definitions)

 

I guess this is where the common language issues brought up above comes into play... ?  :)

 

 

 

Edited May 2 by Imp

[betarhoalphadelta]

@Imp I'd say MLR F-20 wouldn't be impacted here. And MLR F-20 only comes into play BECAUSE narrow concrete drainage channels are penalty areas according to the rules.

 

This is most certainly NOT a concrete drainage channel for use when there's been excessive rain. In this case it's a concrete channel used to direct the flow of the creek. 

 

From this thread (apologies for dropping out for a few days--work was busy) I think I am 100% clear that the concrete channel is an unmarked PA. 

 

Based on feedback, I'm leaning towards the idea that the PA begins where there is a noticeable slope in the land down to the channel, not the edge of the concrete, so my buddy shouldn't have gotten embedded ball relief. 

 

Initially I was thinking that would be a poor way to define the PA because players can--and do--regularly play balls on that slope. However as there's no rule stopping you from playing within a PA, defining it at the point of slope means that you get better PA drops (on flat land) if your ball was in the creek, and only hurts you in cases like this where the ball was embedded as you'd not get free relief. 

[Imp]

I understand the difference. Just seems overly odd to me that they wouldn't mark them, just a "you should know this, duh."

 

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

I understand the difference. Just seems overly odd to me that they wouldn't mark them, just a "you should know this, duh."

 

Some courses do not mark PA's or much of anything, for that matter.  Or the stakes were removed by golfers or maintenance crew who grow tired of removing and putting them back.  It happens.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

I understand the difference. Just seems overly odd to me that they wouldn't mark them, just a "you should know this, duh."

 

 

They don't mark much of anything. OB is marked, and there are a couple of areas that are perpetually soggy that are staked out as GUR. 

 

But as mentioned in my OP, this is a public/muni course with low greens fees. I like the course because it's surprisingly well maintained for the price. But part of that low price is that they're not out there spraypainting or staking on the regular. 

[Schulzmc]

The rule says, “where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water.” This seems problematic to me, as there is no precise explanation for what “slopes down” means. What if it is a gradual slope that begins 20 feet away from the concrete ditch? Or what if there is a slight slope for 4 feet, slight increase to that slope for another 4 feet, and then a more dramatic slope for 4 more up to the concrete ditch? Which graduation of the slope is the one that begins the penalty area? 

 

This seems way too open to interpretation to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the PA to begin at the edge of the concrete ditch?

[Socrates]

2 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The rule says, “where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water.” This seems problematic to me, as there is no precise explanation for what “slopes down” means. What if it is a gradual slope that begins 20 feet away from the concrete ditch? Or what if there is a slight slope for 4 feet, slight increase to that slope for another 4 feet, and then a more dramatic slope for 4 more up to the concrete ditch? Which graduation of the slope is the one that begins the penalty area? 

 

This seems way too open to interpretation to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the PA to begin at the edge of the concrete ditch?

That is where experience comes into play.  When you actually do mark a course a couple of times, you get a feel and sense on where to draw the line (literally).  The first few times you likely will make mistakes (too close - too far away) and you learn.  If possible you go back and correct the errors.

 

In your scenario, you would quickly learn what is reasonable and I would mark it where the dramatic slope begins (most likely).  As said before, you usually will place the line where, if there is a drop, you won't have to drop twice and then place because it rolled back into the area.

[Schulzmc]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

In your scenario, you would quickly learn what is reasonable and I would mark it where the dramatic slope begins (most likely).  As said before, you usually will place the line where, if there is a drop, you won't have to drop twice and then place because it rolled back into the area.

Excellent - that is very helpful.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

That is where experience comes into play.  When you actually do mark a course a couple of times, you get a feel and sense on where to draw the line (literally).  The first few times you likely will make mistakes (too close - too far away) and you learn.  If possible you go back and correct the errors.

 

In your scenario, you would quickly learn what is reasonable and I would mark it where the dramatic slope begins (most likely).  As said before, you usually will place the line where, if there is a drop, you won't have to drop twice and then place because it rolled back into the area.

 

Thanks. And that's where it gets hazy here... It is a GENTLE slope in this area. If you dropped on the mud, where the ball was embedded, inches from the drainage channel? Yeah, that'll probably roll into the drainage channel. If you dropped in the rough, 1 foot from the drainage channel? Maybe half the time. If you dropped in the rough 2 feet from the drainage channel? I don't think the ball would go into the channel, 80-90% of the time at least. 

 

In this case there's no dramatic slope. The gentle slope probably starts 15-20 feet away from the concrete. 

 

But perhaps this is where my previous point about considering the boundaries of the PA somewhat liberally makes sense... Because you can play the ball on that slope, and most WILL play the ball on that slope. But if you're in the creek, shouldn't you get a relatively better lie/stance given that you're already taking a penalty stroke? I'd think so. So getting to the flatter section outside of the slope makes sense. And then if you're plugged in that area? Sorry, that's just bad luck. Take your stroke penalty, move to the flatter section where you'd get your PA drop, and proceed. 

 

Ideally the course would just mark the area. But we don't live in such an ideal world 😉 

 

Next time I play the course I might try to get a picture of the area and update the thread. I tend to hit it left anyway so I might already be over there lol...

 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Socrates said:

That is where experience comes into play.  When you actually do mark a course a couple of times, you get a feel and sense on where to draw the line (literally).  The first few times you likely will make mistakes (too close - too far away) and you learn.  If possible you go back and correct the errors.

 

In your scenario, you would quickly learn what is reasonable and I would mark it where the dramatic slope begins (most likely).  As said before, you usually will place the line where, if there is a drop, you won't have to drop twice and then place because it rolled back into the area.

 

Excellent explanation.

 

One additional aspect apart from rolling/placing is so called double punishment. Once you have hit your ball into water you should get a decent place to continue from. Meaning you do not want to draw the line into such a slope from where it is very difficult to make a stroke. In such cases the line may be painted at quite a distance from the water line.

 

Also you want to avoid the situation where a dropped ball remains in the General Area but the player has to stand in water, bearing in mind there are both right- and lefthanded players on the course.

 

Current Rules allow the line be defined wherever the Committee sees fit without putting players in difficult situations regarding Loose Impediments as those may be removed everywhere or touching the ground inside PA with a club. Gives much more latitude to the Committee and that should be exploited.