2nd shot strategy on Par 5 you can’t reach

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Cliffy2020 said:

I now understand why you’ve responded the way you have.  If you have anymore misunderstandings just send me a PM.  No point in clogging up an otherwise productive thread any further.  Have a great day ✌🏽

 

You've also said things like (paraphrased) "strokes gains doesn't apply to mid-caps."

 

So… no misunderstanding here. Just some goalpost moving on your part.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 5/6/2025 at 1:56 PM, acekun said:

Hit the 3W! If you're not willing to hit that club on the course, you might as well take it out of the bag. 

 

I recently went through a long stretch where I was spraying my 3W all over the place. No idea where it was going to go -- hitting ridiculous, embarrassing shots. But I kept hitting it (and kept practicing).  I wasn't going to give myself an out which forced me to fix my 3W.

Or go to a slightly shorter 4-wood.

 

Your 2nd paragraph is me, only with driver, lol.  

 

The tradeoff between SG, distance, and accuracy is interesting. Anyone know the mean SG gained per an additional 10 yds in the fairway, by handicap cohort?  I have some data for Tour (I found this insightful at datagolf) but I was wondering how the tradeoffs worked for mere mortals. 

 

There's a also an MGS post today about the recent Arccos data report, and higher handicaps have huge blowup %s with driver.  Rock it OB or in the woods 30% of the time, and OK, extra distance may indeed not be the be-all, end-all.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

20 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Scheffler’s typically hitting into tight pin placements on really firm greens.  Most of us plebes, not so much.  On my course, I can easily average inside 15’ from 100 yards during a round.  If you gave me 10 pitches from 40 yards, I’d be lucky to get half of them inside 20 feet.  It’s just a shot that I don’t like.  Not everybody’s game is the same.

5% prox from 100 yds?  Dang.  I'm lucky to do that with my putter.  

 

Doubt I'm alone there...

[SNIPERBBB]

7 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

 

There's a also an MGS post today about the recent Arccos data report, and higher handicaps have huge blowup %s with driver.  Rock it OB or in the woods 30% of the time, and OK, extra distance may indeed not be the be-all, end-all.

Thats why the biggest boost to scores is to figure out your driver.

[mshills]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Thats why the biggest boost to scores is to figure out your driver.

Exactly. Furthermore, someone who’s jacking it all over the place, off the golf course, into hazards with D is going to hit it worse with the less forgiving and shorter 3w. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

Just now, SNIPERBBB said:

Thats why the biggest boost to scores is to figure out your driver.

100.  And I am.  Slowly.

 

Just surprising to see the chart of Arccos "Wayward" tee shots be that high.  Not that those players likely hit anything north of an 8-iron that much better though. 

 

Just pointing out that, if you are having to take either 1 or 2 extra shots, 1/4 to 1/3 of the time with a club, that's a lot of extra fairway distance you need to pick up when you hit it well, at (Tour) ~0.045 SG per 10 extra yards.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

4 minutes ago, mshills said:

Exactly. Furthermore, someone who’s jacking it all over the place, off the golf course, into hazards with D is going to hit it worse with the less forgiving and shorter 3w. 

Completely agree 99.9% of the time.  Unless they hit 3-wood really well and about as far as they do driver.  Which doesn't make sense to me either.

 

("So get a driver that feels like your 3-wood, idiot.  And lessons.  In fact, do the lessons first.")

Edited May 7 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

100.  And I am.  Slowly.

 

Just surprising to see the chart of Arccos "Wayward" tee shots be that high.  Not that those players likely hit anything north of an 8-iron that much better though. 

 

Just pointing out that, if you are having to take either 1 or 2 extra shots, 1/4 to 1/3 of the time with a club, that's a lot of extra fairway distance you need to pick up when you hit it well, at (Tour) ~0.045 SG per 10 extra yards.

You still guarantee LOOSING a stroke hitting less that driver off the tee if the club you hit off the tee cant get you to within a club that can reliably get on the green on the approach...

[GoGoErky]

On 5/6/2025 at 6:27 PM, WesternRacing said:

 

Scheffler’s typically hitting into tight pin placements on really firm greens.  Most of us plebes, not so much.  On my course, I can easily average inside 15’ from 100 yards during a round.  If you gave me 10 pitches from 40 yards, I’d be lucky to get half of them inside 20 feet.  It’s just a shot that I don’t like.  Not everybody’s game is the same.

What do you average over the course of all your rounds?

Edited May 8 by GoGoErky

[Ty_Webb]

29 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

The tradeoff between SG, distance, and accuracy is interesting. Anyone know the mean SG gained per an additional 10 yds in the fairway, by handicap cohort?  I have some data for Tour (I found this insightful at datagolf) but I was wondering how the tradeoffs worked for mere mortals. 

 

For the PGA Tour, it depends based on distance from the hole. Ten more yards between 300 and 200 is worth more than ten more yards between 200 and 100. I would imagine something similar holds true for worse players, but my guess would be an extra 10 yards is worth more for a handicap player than a PGA Tour player. They probably don't see much drop off in quality of shot as they go up the bag, where a teens handicap player is probably going to be substantially better with a wedge than a 4 iron.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

9 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

You still guarantee LOOSING a stroke hitting less that driver off the tee if the club you hit off the tee cant get you to within a club that can reliably get on the green on the approach...

If they're that bad with driver, the set of "club that can reliably get on the green with an approach," is probably {0}.

 

We're not disagreeing at all.  I'm just complaining about my driver, as usual.  My attitude has always been, "If you're going to suck regardless, then first, be sure to do it quickly.  Then second, hit it as far as you can, so that you can at least be garbage closer to the hole."

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

For the PGA Tour, it depends based on distance from the hole. Ten more yards between 300 and 200 is worth more than ten more yards between 200 and 100. I would imagine something similar holds true for worse players, but my guess would be an extra 10 yards is worth more for a handicap player than a PGA Tour player. They probably don't see much drop off in quality of shot as they go up the bag, where a teens handicap player is probably going to be substantially better with a wedge than a 4 iron.

Concur on both points.  The chart a bit further on, where the author shows the marginal gain for 10 more yards plotted vs distance, was really illuminating.  I guess 60-70 yds is where their avg prox starts to approach reasonable 1-putt territory.

 

Was curious if someone had the math handy for midcaps.

[Shilgy]

31 minutes ago, mshills said:

Exactly. Furthermore, someone who’s jacking it all over the place, off the golf course, into hazards with D is going to hit it worse with the less forgiving and shorter 3w. 

3 wood is easier for me to hit.  Which is why I “always” hit 3 wood for second shot on par 5’s to get as close as possible. I’ve experimented with shortening driver shaft but it worked poorly.  The 43.25” 3 wood is more accurate and just about as long.

 

Back to the original discussion….😉

 

[TheDeanAbides]

18 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Thats why the biggest boost to scores is to figure out your driver.

100% this. I didn't hit driver for the first few years I played. Got to single figures and then figured out how to get it in play. Dropped to low single figures almost instantly. Couldn't believe how much easier the courses I was playing were when I had a wedge instead of a 7 in my hands. 

[WesternRacing]

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

[Rbsiedsc]

Kept with the distance today. one par 5 i doubled due to a 3 putt and a not great wedge shot. Not bad strategy. Second par 5 did the same thing and bogied since I missed a makeable par putt.

[Rbsiedsc]

5 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

now why did you double bogey though? was it a bad wedge shot or putting or what? Did you have an obstruction blocking your shot with the wedge?

[GoGoErky]

On 5/6/2025 at 10:01 PM, DwayneGretzky said:

Genuinely curious, do you have plotted / tracked all your shots from 75-105 and from 30-40 by overall proximity (Arccos, Shot Scope, other) - or just feel, think, experience this?

 

23 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

What do you average over the course of all your rounds?

 

1 hour ago, WesternRacing said:

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

You love the anecdotes while ignoring questions about what happens long term

[GoGoErky]

On 5/6/2025 at 8:19 PM, iacas said:

 

And if we were talking about how to improve your handicap long term and in larger amounts, we'd almost all be making that argument. As it is, you're not going to "improve your ball-striking" when you are faced with the choice of what to hit for your second shot on a par five.

 

Golfers can't even flush their putts…

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm.

 

 

I'd take that bet as many times as you wanted to offer it.

I’d take that bet too 

[mshills]

2 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

This one time I hit an 8i 180 yards! Dang, guess I am Long. 

[TheDeanAbides]

17 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

Well, that's obviously conclusive. Throw all that stupid data in the bin and replace it with weaponised incompetence. 

Edited May 9 by TheDeanAbides

[ChaosTheory]

On 5/6/2025 at 10:37 AM, Asics10 said:

What's consensus if the pin is in the front and bunkers guard the front? Do you lay back then so you have a fuller shot that can spin? Doesn't need to be a par 5, can be a short par 4.

Add a 20 mph down wind and firm greens and you have some of our front pins on shortish par4s.  Guys hit a hero drive to 40 yards, then their approaches roll out to the back of the green.  I’ve taken to laying up to try to have some spin from 70 or 80.

 

However, the last time, I chunked my 7 wood tee shot and had 160 in.

Oops.  
 

Our course is loaded with strategic decisions.  As in, if I get as close as I can, I’ll have a downhill lie.  Am I better from 100 from a downhill lie, or 130 level?  

[Rbsiedsc]

51 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

Guys hit a hero drive to 40 yards, then their approaches roll out to the back of the green.

What’s wrong with this strategy?They get on the green and are at least putting for birdie and avoiding being short sided. Front pins are sucker pins. 

Edited May 9 by Rbsiedsc

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Well, that's obviously conclusive. Throw all that stupid data in the bin and replace it with weaponised incompetence. 

Right. Hes not talking about how many greens he might miss from that distance which he’s into the proximity calculation, how many times he’s not 15’ or closer from that distance.

 

 

 

[golferdude54]

We have to take into account that most recreational golfers just have access to a driving range and a putting green outside of rounds and that’s it.
 

Maybe chipping if there’s no “No Chipping” sign nearby! At the range most will just work on their full shots. 
 

So when they encounter a partial wedge shot inside 100 yards that’s longer than a chipping stroke on par 5’s they have very little experience practicing those shots. So of course they would suck. 

[golferdude54]

19 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

Decided to take GolfWRX advice this morning and get as far up to all the par 5s as I could!  First par 5 is a 497 uphill-all-the-way hole that plays about 525.  Cool/damp morning.  I laid up with a five wood to 45 yards.  And proceeded to double bogey the hole from there….

 

By the time I got to the next par five I was having an otherwise good round so I went back to my normal approach and laid up farther back.  Went par, birdie, par on the remaining par fives.  Go figure.

How often do you practice 45 yard shots outside of rounds?

[ChaosTheory]

52 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

What’s wrong with this strategy?They get on the green and are at least putting for birdie and avoiding being short sided. Front pins are sucker pins. 

Yeah, no doubt.  I suppose it’s psychological, right?  Hit a great drive to 40 yards, then can’t get within 70 feet, feels worse than a front fringe from 80 or 100.

[Rbsiedsc]

19 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

Yeah, no doubt.  I suppose it’s psychological, right?  Hit a great drive to 40 yards, then can’t get within 70 feet, feels worse than a front fringe from 80 or 100.

Front pin at least aim middle of green. If they hit too soft and it’s by the pin. If too hard just off green with a straightforward chip. Just right 20-30’ away  which is the avg for most ams from that distance approach. 

[cardoustie]

Hit 7w just short 

[BdaGolfer]

Whether you get up close or lay back the intent is to leave yourself a shot you feel comfortable executing. If you have the partial wedge shot then you will average a lower proximity over time compared to the full wedge, but if that shot is a crapshoot then find a more consistent option. That will help the score more than blindly following what works for others.

 

Personally, if I can't get within 30 yards I'll lay back to 75-90 yards and trust my 9 o'clock wedge swing.