On course: Lifted ball on putting green needs to be replaced

[Augster]

Hello.

 

2-man best ball stroke play. One Partner A has a putt from a foot away and believes his partner B is in with par and lifts his ball without marking. His partner B says, “We need you to putt that I had bogey”. 
 

Does Partner A replace the ball and finish out without penalty? That’s what I’m reading in 9.4b exception 1. 
 

It’s not really “accidental movement” as the player deliberately picked it up. 
 

Thanks for the help!

[Hawkeye77]

He picked it up without marking and yes, not within the meaning of accidental in the Rules.

 

I'm reading one stroke penalty.

[Schulzmc]

I believe we discussed this once before here and the overall conclusion was it is impossible to “accidentally” bend over and pick up a ball. That is an intentional action (albeit a mistake in this case). One penalty stroke is indeed warranted.

[Augster]

The exception in the Rule:

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:
    •    Allows the ball to be lifted and then replaced on its original spot,

 

He is deliberately picking the ball yes, he just didn’t mark. But he’s following a Rule that allows the ball to be lifted legally. 

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Augster said:

He is deliberately picking the ball yes, he just didn’t mark. But he’s following a Rule that allows the ball to be lifted legally. 

 

No he's not.

 

Edit to add: you could say he's lifting it legally but failing to mark it so you can accurately replace it is the illegal part, sure, but it's the same one stroke penalty. If the putt was for par, he may as well keep it in his pocket as his team is already in for bogey.

 

Edited May 18 by iacas

[Augster]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

No he's not.

 

Edit to add: you could say he's lifting it legally but failing to mark it so you can accurately replace it is the illegal part, sure, but it's the same one stroke penalty. If the putt was for par, he may as well keep it in his pocket as his team is already in for bogey.

 

So one stroke penalty? 
 

Thanks for the help folks. 

[WesternRacing]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The exception in the Rule:

 

Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:
    •    Allows the ball to be lifted and then replaced on its original spot,

 

He is deliberately picking the ball yes, he just didn’t mark. But he’s following a Rule that allows the ball to be lifted legally. 

 

Yeah, no he’s not.  Penalty for sure.

[Augster]

What is odd about this is that the player could not be paying attention, walk up and accidentally kick his ball. Estimate, replace, no penalty. 
 

But if he intentionally picks it up without marking, 1SP, estimate and replace. 
 

The Ruling bodies should probably look at this so clumsiness isn’t rewarded more than absentmindedness. 

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Augster said:

What is odd about this is that the player could not be paying attention, walk up and accidentally kick his ball. Estimate, replace, no penalty. 
 

But if he intentionally picks it up without marking, 1SP, estimate and replace. 
 

The Ruling bodies should probably look at this so clumsiness isn’t rewarded more than absentmindedness.

 

One is an intentional act, the other is accidental — and if he accidentally moves his ball off the putting green, and not in searching for a ball (and a few other things), he's penalized there, too.

 

I don't find it very odd at all.

 

Edited May 18 by iacas
Grammar

[WesternRacing]

40 minutes ago, Augster said:

What is odd about this is that the player could not be paying attention, walk up and accidentally kick his ball. Estimate, replace, no penalty. 
 

But if he intentionally picks it up without marking, 1SP, estimate and replace. 
 

The Ruling bodies should probably look at this so clumsiness isn’t rewarded more than absentmindedness. 

 

But one is an accident, the other is an intentional act.

 

I made this mistake once during a tournament when I was having a really good round.  Had about an eight foot downhill birdie putt and just blew past the hole like a moron.  Left the eight foot comebacker three inches short and proceeded to angrily pick up my ball, forgetting it wasn’t a best ball tournament, but a stroke play tournament.  Immediately realized my mistake and took the penalty.

 

Edited May 18 by WesternRacing

[ThinkingPlus]

The simple way to make sure such penalties don't occur is for all players to mark and pick up their balls when they get to the green and afterwards until holed or a tap in. It is smart to do, so you own that spot on the green. It is also courteous to others putting. Just follow the process and don't think until after the ball is marked.

[Nickb333]

19 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The simple way to make sure such penalties don't occur is for all players to mark and pick up their balls when they get to the green and afterwards until holed or a tap in. It is smart to do, so you own that spot on the green. It is also courteous to others putting. Just follow the process and don't think until after the ball is marked.

Agreed. But I had a first time experience last week after doing just that. 
 

Chipped within a couple feet. My marker was in the vicinity of two others line. Neither wanted it moved so I just tapped it down lightly with my putter. Well, the marker had apparently become magnetized and stuck to the bottom of my putter. Didn’t notice right away. Never saw that happen in over 40+years of golf. 
 

Fortunately I was close enough to the hole that replacing the marker was easy. 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Agreed. But I had a first time experience last week after doing just that. 
 

Chipped within a couple feet. My marker was in the vicinity of two others line. Neither wanted it moved so I just tapped it down lightly with my putter. Well, the marker had apparently become magnetized and stuck to the bottom of my putter. Didn’t notice right away. Never saw that happen in over 40+years of golf. 
 

Fortunately I was close enough to the hole that replacing the marker was easy. 

Carbon steel putters do carry that risk, though. We frequently use plastic flat markers when a player doesn't want the mark moved, but it is close to the line of their putt.

[Nickb333]

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

Carbon steel putters do carry that risk, though. We frequently use plastic flat markers when a player doesn't want the mark moved, but it is close to the line of their putt.

As I will from now on… 😁

[WesternRacing]

9 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Carbon steel putters do carry that risk, though. We frequently use plastic flat markers when a player doesn't want the mark moved, but it is close to the line of their putt.

 

That’s all I use these days, the small flat plastic ones with the peg on the bottom.  Never an issue for anyone’s line.

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, WesternRacing said:

 

That’s all I use these days, the small flat plastic ones with the peg on the bottom.  Never an issue for anyone’s line.

I always carry a couple, but default to the hat marker unless asked to use a flat mark. More efficient for me.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Agreed. But I had a first time experience last week after doing just that. 
 

Chipped within a couple feet. My marker was in the vicinity of two others line. Neither wanted it moved so I just tapped it down lightly with my putter. Well, the marker had apparently become magnetized and stuck to the bottom of my putter. Didn’t notice right away. Never saw that happen in over 40+years of golf. 
 

Fortunately I was close enough to the hole that replacing the marker was easy. 

 

That exact scenario was published by the USGA in a "reel", either yesterday or today, on Facebook.  

[antip]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Hello.

 

2-man best ball stroke play. One Partner A has a putt from a foot away and believes his partner B is in with par and lifts his ball without marking. His partner B says, “We need you to putt that I had bogey”. 
 

Does Partner A replace the ball and finish out without penalty? That’s what I’m reading in 9.4b exception 1. 
 

It’s not really “accidental movement” as the player deliberately picked it up. 
 

Thanks for the help!

This is not a Rule 9.4b issue, you correctly note that Exception 1 affirms this ball may be moved.

 

The breach is of Rule 14.1, the player has deliberately lifted the ball (authorised by Rule 13.1b) but has failed to meet the requirements of this rule, to mark the ball, hence one stroke penalty.

[antip]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Carbon steel putters do carry that risk, though. We frequently use plastic flat markers when a player doesn't want the mark moved, but it is close to the line of their putt.

LOL, the risk is not limited to metallic markers ...

 

Some years back I had this curious experience in singles match play: my ball is a yard from the hole, opponent playing onto the green, I mark with my flat, plastic marker, tap down a couple of times and move out of the way. Opponent chips to a few inches, I lift their ball and toss it back then go to replace my ball to putt out and can't find my marker, it has done a vanishing act. We both peer around scratching our heads and then the penny drops, it is stuck to the bottom of my putter, moisture between plastic and putter consumating the union.

 

The opponent tried on "that's a penalty" but I was able to counter with:

D20-1/6. Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball
Q. A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter.
What is the ruling?
A. In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball. Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

 

Things got much easier from 2019, with any putting green accidental movement of ball or marker being a simple replace. 

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

LOL, the risk is not limited to metallic markers ...

 

Some years back I had this curious experience in singles match play: my ball is a yard from the hole, opponent playing onto the green, I mark with my flat, plastic marker, tap down a couple of times and move out of the way. Opponent chips to a few inches, I lift their ball and toss it back then go to replace my ball to putt out and can't find my marker, it has done a vanishing act. We both peer around scratching our heads and then the penny drops, it is stuck to the bottom of my putter, moisture between plastic and putter consumating the union.

 

The opponent tried on "that's a penalty" but I was able to counter with:

D20-1/6. Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball
Q. A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter.
What is the ruling?
A. In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball. Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

 

Things got much easier from 2019, with any putting green accidental movement of ball or marker being a simple replace. 

Ouch! That's certainly unusual, but possible obviously.

[antip]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Ouch! That's certainly unusual, but possible obviously.

Some WTF experiences stay longer than others.