Driver tee'd down = cut?

[BSI99]

So I have a pretty basic understanding of ball flight laws, but one thing has been confusing me the last few days. Why does a tee'd down ball moved back in your stand favor a cut with a driver? My understanding is that a downward angle of attack moves the path right, along with bringing the ball back in your stance moves that path right as well. If you hit an iron with a more downward angle of attack back in your stance it would want to draw, so why does it want to cut with a driver? 

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

So I have a pretty basic understanding of ball flight laws, but one thing has been confusing me the last few days. Why does a tee'd down ball moved back in your stand favor a cut with a driver? My understanding is that a downward angle of attack moves the path right, along with bringing the ball back in your stance moves that path right as well. If you hit an iron with a more downward angle of attack back in your stance it would want to draw, so why does it want to cut with a driver? 

 

I don't move it back in my stance to hit a cut, but that's me.  

 

Why are you saying tee hit down, move it back is how you do it?

[Mike_C]

For me, its a change in the lie angle.   Teeing it down the toe goes down,  tee it high the toe goes up.  Same thing for choking down on an iron, if I really want to cut an iron I will choke down, I have to stand a small amount closer and the toe will go down.....

[BSI99]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I don't move it back in my stance to hit a cut, but that's me.  

 

Why are you saying tee hit down, move it back is how you do it?

This is something i've done but also I've heard a lot of tour players express in videos. Specifically Tiger talking about hitting that "squeezer cut" fairway finder. He tees it down and moves it back. Just confused on why that would make the ball want to cut and not draw? 

 

To give an even more extreme example if you hit a driver off the deck it's so difficult to get that ball to turn over. Again you're hitting down on it when it's on the ground, why is it so hard to draw it?

[Hawkeye77]

31 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

This is something i've done but also I've heard a lot of tour players express in videos. Specifically Tiger talking about hitting that "squeezer cut" fairway finder. He tees it down and moves it back. 

 

 

 

You can find quotes from Tiger explaining it, even in a magazine article "in his own words" - in none of the ones I've read (four or five so far) does he say move the ball back.  Where are you seeing that?

[BSI99]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

You can find quotes from Tiger explaining it, even in a magazine article "in his own words" - in none of the ones I've read (four or five so far) does he say move the ball back.  Where are you seeing that?

I'm not going to be able to find the exact video and time stamp. Regardless of the stance even the tee'd down ball shouldn't produce a cut yet it does.

[Hawkeye77]

11 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

I'm not going to be able to find the exact video and time stamp. Regardless of the stance even the tee'd down ball shouldn't produce a cut yet it does.

 

Well, Tiger, who you are using as the model, doesn't just tee it down a little - no idea how it would work for your swing.

[BSI99]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Well, Tiger, who you are using as the model, doesn't just tee it down a little - no idea how it would work for your swing.

Ok... then what does he do? I don't see why you're hanging onto the Tiger example I gave. This isn't a Tiger specific phenomenon...  

[Hawkeye77]

6 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

Ok... then what does he do? I don't see why you're hanging onto the Tiger example I gave. This isn't a Tiger specific phenomenon...  

 

You brought it up as your specific example. You can easily find his keys to hitting the shot you are talking about, you've apparently seen them before, just took away something from it that he doesn't say.  You're focused on the back in your stance part for some reason and an isolated assumption about path - maybe just review where you are getting the notion and if that really makes sense for you then do it or see why there may be differences from what you are thinking and go from there. 

Edited May 27 by Hawkeye77

[Cwebb]

The cut bias is because the lower tee height forces us to stay more "on top" of the ball with our spine angle.  Less spine tilt tends to promote an across or 'left' path, or even just a more neutral path, which is the first key for an accurate cut shot.

 

The opposite is a high tee height, which promotes staying "behind" the ball with more spine tilt.  This tends to produce an inside out path.....and a draw or push bias.

 

 

Edited May 27 by Cwebb

[MountainKing]

100% don't want to move the ball back in your stance if you're looking for it to fade, unless you're mechanics are jacked up.

[Lefty_3Jack]

I'm more prone to hitting a pull hook with it teed down, but I also tend to choke down and move it further back from a normal driver show when I tee it down.  So even if the lower tee height favors fading, the choking down on the club and moving it back likely favor a hook.  

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

The cut bias is because the lower tee height forces us to stay more "on top" of the ball with our spine angle.  Less spine tilt tends to promote an across or 'left' path, or even just a more neutral path, which is the first key for an accurate cut shot.

 

The opposite is a high tee height, which promotes staying "behind" the ball with more spine tilt.  This tends to produce an inside out path.....and a draw or push bias.

 

 

This. The tee'd down ball doesn't produce a cut inherently, it's the common ways in which we react to it. Not universal obviously, but generally speaking you're far more incentivized to swing slightly down and from the outside to hit the low tee ball which encourages a fade. Swinging up and from the inside which favors the opposite is less and less possible the lower the tee is. Yes you can do it, but you'll tend to bottom groove the ball more and more. The "staying on top and covering it" feeling then becomes the more intuitive approach that is encouraged. There is also the fact that it's physically harder to hit the parts of the face that produce certain draw flights, namely high toe. 

You can still do this with a high tee ball of course, and it's the favored approach to those YouTube Stinger trick shots that dudes hit off of downslopes to get that negative launch and big "rise" for all the clicks, lol.  

[onehopstopt]

3 hours ago, BSI99 said:

My understanding is that a downward angle of attack moves the path right

 

Yes, in a vacuum. But often times when we get steeper we do it by doing what Cwebb said, which is reducing spine tilt and being more "on top" of the ball. That can move path left a lot.

 

15 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

100% don't want to move the ball back in your stance if you're looking for it to fade, unless you're mechanics are jacked up.

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. If the goal is to hit a low bullet fade, most will be best off moving the ball back, teeing down, and opening stance. An intentional push cut. It's going to be easier for most people to do that than it is to keep ball flight low with the ball up in the stance.

BSI99, this is why players move it back in their stance- to promote a low ball flight. If you do that without making any other changes, you're liable to hit a low hook, which is usually not a good shot. Low cut is a lot more predictable. So often times the additional adjustments I mentioned are made (open stance, adjust face angle).

[MountainKing]

12 minutes ago, onehopstopt said:

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. If the goal is to hit a low bullet fade, most will be best off moving the ball back, teeing down, and opening stance. An intentional push cut. It's going to be easier for most people to do that than it is to keep ball flight low with the ball up in the stance.
 

 

 

None of that is relevant to his question.  I could come up with a million scenarios that would be exceptions to my statement, but  he's not asking how to hit a low bullet fade, he's asking why a ball moved back with a lower tee promotes a fade, which with a normal swing it really shouldn't.

[onehopstopt]

8 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

 

None of that is relevant to his question.  I could come up with a million scenarios that would be exceptions to my statement, but  he's not asking how to hit a low bullet fade, he's asking why a ball moved back with a lower tee promotes a fade, which with a normal swing it really shouldn't.

 

Well the first part of my answer explained why a low teed ball can promote a fade, but sure to answer that part more directly: ball teed back doesn't promote a fade. It promotes a low ball flight, which is half of what players are trying to accomplish with the "squeeze cut" shot.

[MonteScheinblum]

All things being equal a steeper angle of attack with ball back promotes a draw…..however, not all things are equal.  
 

There is an issue in your personal swing that’s impossible to say without seeing it.

 

One possible scenario (of many).

 

Your brain is reacting to the back ball position by bringing the club head out early to avoid pushing it right.  End game would result in a fade.

[BSI99]

33 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

All things being equal a steeper angle of attack with ball back promotes a draw…..however, not all things are equal.  
 

There is an issue in your personal swing that’s impossible to say without seeing it.

 

One possible scenario (of many).

 

Your brain is reacting to the back ball position by bringing the club head out early to avoid pushing it right.  End game would result in a fade.

I'm not necessarily talking about my swing in particular, although teeing it down produces a fade. I also see it in the pro game as well, with the biggest example being how few draws I see from a DOD

[MonteScheinblum]

20 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

I'm not necessarily talking about my swing in particular, although teeing it down produces a fade. I also see it in the pro game as well, with the biggest example being how few draws I see from a DOD

I was at the masters and wrote about this.  The ball is back in the stance when you look dead face on with feet, but if you put camera on target line it is not. 

[BSI99]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I was at the masters and wrote about this.  The ball is back in the stance when you look dead face on with feet, but if you put camera on target line it is not. 

Interesting. Do you think some of the ball back = cut stuff is due to a more open face the more back you put it? Basically hitting a push cut?

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

Interesting. Do you think some of the ball back = cut stuff is due to a more open face the more back you put it? Basically hitting a push cut?

Yes, if you are playing the ball back and hitting a cut you must aim way left.  As you said, ball back usually promotes a draw……unless you aim way left

[Pepperturbo]

4 hours ago, BSI99 said:

So I have a pretty basic understanding of ball flight laws, but one thing has been confusing me the last few days. Why does a tee'd down ball moved back in your stand favor a cut with a driver? My understanding is that a downward angle of attack moves the path right, along with bringing the ball back in your stance moves that path right as well. If you hit an iron with a more downward angle of attack back in your stance it would want to draw, so why does it want to cut with a driver? 

Those are many assumptions, that don't apply to me.  If I move the ball slightly back in my stance I get a low flighted straight bullet but not max distance; it's comparable to a 2i iron low punch shot.  Teeing the ball lower more forward in my stance gets me max straight distance and medium flight.   When I tee it high but adjust my swing plane a tad flatter, with wind at my back, I get the longest highest drive.

Edited May 27 by Pepperturbo

[onehopstopt]

1 hour ago, BSI99 said:

I'm not necessarily talking about my swing in particular, although teeing it down produces a fade. I also see it in the pro game as well, with the biggest example being how few draws I see from a DOD

DOD is going to be from a combination of what has already said regarding how steepining moves often push path left, but also because when you’re trying to hit a ~9 degree club off the turf it’s usually in your best interest to add some loft. Thats easier to do with a fade.

 

Good players can hit a draw with driver off the deck if they want to, it’s just usually not a good idea.

[BSI99]

51 minutes ago, onehopstopt said:

DOD is going to be from a combination of what has already said regarding how steepining moves often push path left, but also because when you’re trying to hit a ~9 degree club off the turf it’s usually in your best interest to add some loft. Thats easier to do with a fade.

 

Good players can hit a draw with driver off the deck if they want to, it’s just usually not a good idea.

Oh ya I'm not saying it's impossible, I just have to exaggerate a draw feel way more off the deck than I would off a tee.

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, BSI99 said:

I'm not necessarily talking about my swing in particular, although teeing it down produces a fade. I also see it in the pro game as well, with the biggest example being how few draws I see from a DOD

 

1 hour ago, onehopstopt said:

DOD is going to be from a combination of what has already said regarding how steepining moves often push path left, but also because when you’re trying to hit a ~9 degree club off the turf it’s usually in your best interest to add some loft. Thats easier to do with a fade.

 

Good players can hit a draw with driver off the deck if they want to, it’s just usually not a good idea.

 

18 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

Oh ya I'm not saying it's impossible, I just have to exaggerate a draw feel way more off the deck than I would off a tee.

Man that reminded me of Adam firing off this beauty...