Tobacco Road.. crazy....

[LongNwrong27]

1 hour ago, mshills said:

Goat track is not what I experienced two weeks ago, not even close. It isn’t like Augusta National or Quail Hollow or Muirfield Village, but it isn’t supposed to be. I like the scruff. 
 

The turf was in good shape. Torrential, Biblical rains occurred a day and a half before we played, but everything drained just fine. No washed out areas on greens or fairways and nothing was burnt.

 

The extensive waste areas are not groomed and I didn’t expect them to be, but I also never encountered exposed pipes and so forth. Maybe I wasn’t in there as much. 😁

 

Greens were beautiful — rolled true and consistent hole to hole. Speed I do not know….they were slower than my place….good thing since at our typical ~12.5 they would be near unplayable. We got them in peak condition since they will do the summer aeration next week. 

 

Critiques as follows:

We played as part of a package deal so I didn’t think too much about the individual greens fees. The whole experience was cool, but did it feel like $300+? Not really. Minimal staff, minimal facilities to get cleaned up afterwards, no ice in coolers on carts, small things. Not a big deal and I still enjoyed the place very much, but I would not race back at $350 or whatever the rack rate is. 
 

Food was lousy. We teed off at 9a….coming from Pine Needles the prior day where we savaged the breakfast buffet and omelet station, what looked like prepackaged microwave Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwiches were 👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼. Come on now, be better than that. Sort of goes along with the price point comments, the snack bar that feels like a muni is out of place.  
 

I’m on record on here many times that I dislike speed golf and the fixation on playing as fast as possible. The day we played was post thunderstorms, hot and humid. It was also Father’s Day. Suggested pace is 4:40. So, we expected and prepared for a long day. It took a little over 5:15 with a lot of waiting on the back nine. The course is not easy and you can spend some time looking for your 🌰 if you hit it crooked….but my critique is I saw no staff out there keeping the two large groups in front of us (16 players in each crew) moving and that should be table stakes. Not sure who was slow with that many players, but what we saw on the first tee box was not good. Again, I am not trying to play this course in 3:30 at prime time in June, but I also didn’t see any polite measures taken to keep things flowing. 
 

Hope this is a balanced take. Best course I’ve ever seen…..no, that is just stroking them. Goat track….no, that is pretty aggressive the other way. I’m glad we played it. I’d like to play it again but there are so many in the area I haven’t played yet I want to hit those first. 

 

I played it two months ago and while I live in a low cost of living area, there are munis I can play for 20 bucks that are in better shape.

 

I don’t expect country club conditions but where I’m from in Midwest the conditions would be below the vast vast majority of public courses which are an integer multiple less cost wise. 

[allparz]

We call TR the "Cyber Truck" of golf courses

[SheriffBooth]

17 minutes ago, LongNwrong27 said:

I played it two months ago and while I live in a low cost of living area, there are munis I can play for 20 bucks that are in better shape.

 

I don’t expect country club conditions but where I’m from in Midwest the conditions would be below the vast vast majority of public courses which are an integer multiple less cost wise. 

 

I don't doubt your experience.  We had a very wet and cold winter for this area, so lots of courses still looked pretty crappy in March and early April, and hardly anywhere overseeds in the winter anymore.  That dormant bermuda in the fairways can be ugly as heck in the winter and early spring, especially if there's been a lot of rain like we had all winter long.  I particularly hate it around the greens when the turf gets like that - can really ruin a day of golf.  My home course in Raleigh didn't start to pop until very late in May.

 

I suspect that explains why you and mshills had such different takes.

Edited June 24 by SheriffBooth

[Ajgaguy83]

On 6/5/2025 at 10:48 AM, SheriffBooth said:

 

Yes, if you've got a book and know where to hit it on each hole it can actually play kind of easy.  And it's certainly visually stunning.  It's been a minute since I've been out there but as the Southern Pines area has become a more popular national tourist golf destination, Tobacco Road has been gaining prominence.  It's really such a crying shame that Strantz died so young - if he'd had the opportunity to proliferate the way Pete Dye did, I bet we'd have some really incredible courses, including maybe an exciting Tour stop.

 

 

It's definitely a shame, but Mike re-did Monterey and the Tour plays there, but yes, I agree.

 

Tobacco Road is great. It's interesting seeing everyone's feedback. The course plays easy if you know the correct lines and find the correct sections of the greens. It's visually much tougher than it really is, which I think is a testament to Mike and the design. Tot Hill, another of Mike's design is close and also worth the effort of playing.

 

Man..... all this talk of The Pit has me going down memory lane. I loved that course, it's shame it doesn't exist anymore. Anyone remember the old driving range not far down the road from The Pit back off the road on the right (if you're coming from Pinehurst)?

[dcmidnight]

37 minutes ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

I don't doubt your experience.  We had a very wet and cold winter for this area, so lots of courses still looked pretty crappy in March and early April, and hardly anywhere overseeds in the winter anymore.  That dormant bermuda in the fairways can be ugly as heck in the winter and early spring, especially if there's been a lot of rain like we had all winter long.  I particularly hate it around the greens when the turf gets like that - can really ruin a day of golf.  My home course in Raleigh didn't start to pop until very late in May.

 

I suspect that explains why you and mshills had such different takes.

 

Yeah our Bermuda fairways in NoVA usually pop by now. But this was the worst winter I can remember in 30 years of living here - multiple periods of highs below freezing. Followed by warming/rain. Followed by more weather below freezing. Some of our ultra-dormant spots are just popping now but we also had to re-sod a few areas that IMO werent coming back anyway. Absolutely zero fault of the grounds guys, there's nothing the super can do in those cases.

Edited June 24 by dcmidnight

[islesmb]

I took a trip to Ireland earlier this month and a couple of courses we played (Ballybunnion and Lahinch) we commented how they felt like Tobacco Road in spots. I was researching MS influences and came across this on RNK's website. True Blue is my favorite course in the area here.

 

Quote

Strantz’s layouts are known for being unique and memorable, and this is true of this Course. The publicity campaign for the club called the course “an inland links” and a tribute to Royal County Down and Ballybunion,” two of Strantz’s favorite golf courses. Trying to emulate those courses is a lofty goal, however if you imagine plucking up Royal County Down by its roots and transplanting it, bunkers, dunes, and fescue included, to a hilly tree-lined landscape, then you’ll have an idea as to what Royal New Kent is like.

 

[smashdn]

When I played it forever ago it had bent greens.  I want to say I have learned that they switched to bermuda at some point but that could be wrong as well.

 

Anyway, while I was there I asked a guy working if they had ever thought about going to the then new varieties of ultra dwarf bermuda that were starting to be used further and further north.  He sort of acted like I had put down his kids and said, "Why would I do that?  We have never lost a green."  I was thinking of it more from the standpoint you could have firm greens in summer via not having to water the bajeezus out of them, a common issue with bent green in the transition zone.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, SheriffBooth said:

We had a very wet and cold winter for this area, so lots of courses still looked pretty crappy in March and early April, and hardly anywhere overseeds in the winter anymore.  That dormant bermuda in the fairways can be ugly as heck in the winter and early spring, especially if there's been a lot of rain like we had all winter long. 

 

My club went to "bluemuda" several years ago.  Prior to that we had bermuda fairways that had the same issues you bring up.  The new fairways are a game changer.  There is not a time of year that they are not in very good shape and green.  It would be something I would put in your greens committee or super's ear for sure.  

 

Bluemuda isn't overseeding but rather interseeding where bluegrass is sown into the bermuda.  It doesn't die off and leave brown patches where the bermuda has been held back like you get with overseeded rye.  You may find one or two areas on the whole course where one or the other is a little more dense but overall there is always some grass growing.  In the early spring when the bluegrass is growing well they can really get some nice striping and uniformity if you value that sort of thing.  You don't have the mushy spring fairways with dormant bermuda.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/turf-tips/2019/how-to-establish-bluemuda-fairways.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/59/04/bluemuda---benefits--establishment-and-management.html

[Johnny Biarritz]

5 hours ago, LongNwrong27 said:

When is the last time you played it? 
 

I suspect many people remember the good ole days when it used to be like 75 bucks to play the course with reasonable conditioning. Now you may be paying 300 to play a goat track conditioning wise , and I do not say that lightly or commonly use that to describe a golf course. 
 

Obviously an interesting and unique design largely remains that way but I do agree the conditions severely detract from the experience and hurt the overall vision from being realized 

It's been a while. It's not worth $300, that's for sure. My 36 a day comment wasn't considering price, obviously that's not practical. Tobacco Road, to me, is a $125 maybe $150 course. But they're packing the sheets with suckers willing to pay $300, so good for them I guess.

[Roody]

14 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I’d be curious to hear why you think it feels similar to mammoth? I’m not seeing it at all. Maybe just because it has blind shots? The blind shots at mammoth are so massive that you really can’t mess it up. And your ball funnels to the fairway/green on the large majority of holes out there. Target golf describes TR well. Not the case with MD

I guess it just kinda "looked" like Mammoth Dunes to me. But yeah, the play style sounds a lot different. MD was definitely not target golf. 

[SheriffBooth]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

My club went to "bluemuda" several years ago.  Prior to that we had bermuda fairways that had the same issues you bring up.  The new fairways are a game changer.  There is not a time of year that they are not in very good shape and green.  It would be something I would put in your greens committee or super's ear for sure.  

 

Bluemuda isn't overseeding but rather interseeding where bluegrass is sown into the bermuda.  It doesn't die off and leave brown patches where the bermuda has been held back like you get with overseeded rye.  You may find one or two areas on the whole course where one or the other is a little more dense but overall there is always some grass growing.  In the early spring when the bluegrass is growing well they can really get some nice striping and uniformity if you value that sort of thing.  You don't have the mushy spring fairways with dormant bermuda.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/turf-tips/2019/how-to-establish-bluemuda-fairways.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/59/04/bluemuda---benefits--establishment-and-management.html

 

That sounds awesome.  We're right on the border of the so-called "transition zone" and really each year I think that line gets higher and higher.  I'm not sure the mixed in bluegrass would survive our summer - it's 98 out today and summer just started.  We've still got bent greens but I'm pretty sure we'll be converting to bermuda sooner rather than later.

[tw422]

On 6/22/2025 at 6:34 AM, Looper34 said:

I’ll take a try at it. I’ve played TR 3 times. My best score was a 77 (with loaner clubs after UA misplaced my golf bag for a couple days) but that's another story.
Like “tricked up” and “gimmicky”, “target golf” is another term to describe Tobacco Road. 
The course has some multi-contoured greens with different collection areas, requiring approaches to land at specific spot so the ball will ride the contour toward the hole. If you hit the target, there’s an excellent chance for a tap in birdie because the cup is located in the swale’s collection area. 
I’ve seen 2 weak approach shot just make the front of the green, catch the swale, roll 60 feet toward the back and both shots end up a foot away from the cup.

On one of the par 3s I remember the best target was the side of a slope, 20 feet from the green. 
There are also some forced carries where you need to get it out there but not to far because you’ll run it through the fairway into a very difficult hardpan waste area. There are also some swales and bumps in the landing areas of some of the fairways that can knock a good shot off line that you have to deal with too. Figuring out a good line off the tee takes some getting used to.

Tobacco Road is a fun course and I really don’t have a problem with the nuances except for the fact that I'd need to play it somewhat regularly to really figure it out.

For me, the $300 price point is too expensive to play it more than once in a great while.

By the time I get back there, I’m back to square one.

I have also used this terminology to describe TR and I agree with the definitions listed above.  However I would add that calling TR "tricked up" is just a way to describe and compare it to other courses that I find aesthetically pleasing (like #2, Merion East or Bethpage Black).  I don't find the use of forced carries and blind shots part of traditional design characteristics but I'm also not a golf course design expert or historian so I could be wrong there.  For example, I've not played Pine Valley but from the pictures it seems like Crump used many forced carries in his design however no one walks away saying it's gimmicky or tricked up.  I'm not a Pete Dye fan but courses like TPC Sawgrass or Whitsling Straits again have some of these features but are not used to an extreme.  I also feel TR relies too heavily on these types of design features (feels manufactured) which again invoked the vernacular I choose to use to describe the course.   

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

That sounds awesome.  We're right on the border of the so-called "transition zone" and really each year I think that line gets higher and higher.  I'm not sure the mixed in bluegrass would survive our summer - it's 98 out today and summer just started.  We've still got bent greens but I'm pretty sure we'll be converting to bermuda sooner rather than later.

 

Work thermometer says 109 at the moment.  I am right on the KY/TN line.  We have a few courses south of us with bent greens still and a few north of us that have gone to bermuda.  We have bent and they are always in good shape, they will just grow them a little longer in summer and do the water inject thing.

[Faucette]

19 hours ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

 

 

It's definitely a shame, but Mike re-did Monterey and the Tour plays there, but yes, I agree.

 

Tobacco Road is great. It's interesting seeing everyone's feedback. The course plays easy if you know the correct lines and find the correct sections of the greens. It's visually much tougher than it really is, which I think is a testament to Mike and the design. Tot Hill, another of Mike's design is close and also worth the effort of playing.

 

Man..... all this talk of The Pit has me going down memory lane. I loved that course, it's shame it doesn't exist anymore. Anyone remember the old driving range not far down the road from The Pit back off the road on the right (if you're coming from Pinehurst)?

I miss The Pit also and yes I remember the old driving range and an attempt at the Par 3 course off Highway #5. The Sheppard brothers who own or used to own Golf Augusta started that. 

[flip flappy]

I have only played Tobacco Road twice and I liked it. Can't remember exact years but I'm thinking 2011 and maybe 2014. Whatever year they re-did the greens was the last time. I think we played the first day they re-opened after installing the new greens and the green fee was only $69. I like the course. I was told the first time I played it that if you hit to the right spots you will do ok. I believe my friend called it target golf. Did fair the first time but the second time shot my career low round at the time, 83. I was hitting my driver and even hybrids well off the tee and getting in good position for approach shots. My buddy on the other hand had a lot of trouble off the tee and absolutely hated the course. The first time I played it was cart path only. A group of older golfers in front of us took forever to complete the round. 6 hour round. I don't recommend going if it's cart path only.

[dekez]

A buddy hit the best shot I ever saw there. He was in high rough. He hit the ball and it went almost straight up in the air. He caught it again at the top of his follow through such that the ball went backwards 20 yards into the water.  This was when a double-hit counted for two shots + a penalty.  So, that swing counted as 4 shots - (1) the hit, (2) double-hit, (3) penalty for doublehit, (4) water penalty stroke. 

Edited June 25 by dekez

[flognut]

4 minutes ago, dekez said:

A buddy hit the best shot I ever saw there. He was in high rough. He hit the ball and it went almost straight up in the air. He caught it again at the top of his follow through such that the ball went backwards 20 yards into the water.  This was when a double-hit counted for two shots + a penalty.  So, that swing counted as 4 shots - (1) the hit, (2) double-hit, (3) penalty for doublehit, (4) water penalty stroke. 

 

i would have headed straight to the bar after that, lol

[nutmegchoi]

We moved from New York to Pinehurst last month.

Now that we’re “locals,” we have the luxury of waiting for the green fees to come down during the summer and winter.

Yesterday, we paid $175 per person, cart included.

We teed off at 3:30 p.m. as the last group (just a twosome). We had to wait on almost every tee shot, but still finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes.

 

Since it was our first time playing, and it was just me and my boyfriend, we had no guidance on how to get around.

He blew off the first couple of holes and hated it—but then he got into a groove and made three birdies. Now he says he’ll “tolerate” the course.

 

I only made three pars, but I had a lot of fun.

To me, the course felt like a puzzle—each shot was a problem to solve.

I wouldn’t pay $300 to play it, but I’d definitely go back for the $175 mid-summer rate or the $120 winter rate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14 by nutmegchoi

[sabram]

51 minutes ago, nutmegchoi said:

To me, the course felt like a puzzle—each shot was a problem to solve.

Great observation. Isn't that what a good golf course is all about?

[Argonne69]

3 hours ago, nutmegchoi said:

We moved from New York to Pinehurst last month.

Now that we’re “locals,” we have the luxury of waiting for the green fees to come down during the summer and winter.

Yesterday, we paid $175 per person, cart included.

We teed off at 3:30 p.m. as the last group (just a twosome). We had to wait on almost every tee shot, but still finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes.

 

Since it was our first time playing, and it was just me and my boyfriend, we had no guidance on how to get around.

He blew off the first couple of holes and hated it—but then he got into a groove and made three birdies. Now he says he’ll “tolerate” the course.

 

I only made three pars, but I had a lot of fun.

To me, the course felt like a puzzle—each shot was a problem to solve.

I wouldn’t pay $300 to play it, but I’d definitely go back for the $175 mid-summer rate or the $120 winter rate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beautiful photos. 

 

[jrg75]

@nutmegchoi, great photos... Curious, was the $175 rate because they recently aerated the greens?  I saw that rate when I was looking to book a trip for this coming weekend but the aeration scared me off.  Looks like the green conditions weren't too bad so I may have missed a "deal".

[nutmegchoi]

2 hours ago, jrg75 said:

@nutmegchoi, great photos... Curious, was the $175 rate because they recently aerated the greens?  I saw that rate when I was looking to book a trip for this coming weekend but the aeration scared me off.  Looks like the green conditions weren't too bad so I may have missed a "deal".

I think it’s just the summer rate.

In the middle of the summer, green fees around here do go down.

It gets pretty hot and humid here, you know.

Mid Sommer (and winter) would be considered as down season.

[jrg75]

41 minutes ago, nutmegchoi said:

I think it’s just the summer rate.

In the middle of the summer, green fees around here do go down.

It gets pretty hot and humid here, you know.

Mid Sommer (and winter) would be considered as down season.

I saw this when I was looking to book, reason I asked.  Seems like August 1, still super hot, it goes back to regular rack rate.

 

[nutmegchoi]

9 hours ago, jrg75 said:

I saw this when I was looking to book, reason I asked.  Seems like August 1, still super hot, it goes back to regular rack rate.

 

Oh, then I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You got me there.

You are right. Probably aeration.

Greens were super slow.

Edited July 15 by nutmegchoi

[SilverBullets]

On 6/25/2025 at 4:21 AM, dekez said:

A buddy hit the best shot I ever saw there. He was in high rough. He hit the ball and it went almost straight up in the air. He caught it again at the top of his follow through such that the ball went backwards 20 yards into the water.  This was when a double-hit counted for two shots + a penalty.  So, that swing counted as 4 shots - (1) the hit, (2) double-hit, (3) penalty for doublehit, (4) water penalty stroke. 

Accidental double hits aren't penalties. Your buddy was robbed of 3 strokes there by that harsh ruling LOL 

[islesmb]

2 hours ago, SilverBullets said:

Accidental double hits aren't penalties. Your buddy was robbed of 3 strokes there by that harsh ruling LOL 

He prefaced it by saying this happened when when it was a penalty. 🙂

[dekez]

4 hours ago, SilverBullets said:

Accidental double hits aren't penalties. Your buddy was robbed of 3 strokes there by that harsh ruling LOL 

At the time (about 20 years back) they were. See T.C. Chen at the US Open at Oakland Hills.