Fixing my backswing

[RayPlan]

I have a tendency to get into a particular arm position at P4 that seems to set me up for some issues in the downswing. Here's the static image of what I'm looking at:

 

 

My hands are a bit outside my right elbow in DTL view, compared to Adam Scott. Not sure exactly what explains the differences in arm structure at the top.

 

And here's the video:

 

 

I can spot discrete flaws, but I'm trying to get at the root cause. One issue I've had pointed out to me is not enough chest rotation at the start. Not sure if that's the main issue, but it seems possible. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm making some improper arm movement as well. The pieces of the puzzle fit together in interesting and unexpected ways.

 

I don't have a handicap, and I mainly just practice, though I may play my first round this year in the next couple weeks. I'm not worried about wrecking a functional swing, in other words. 

 

Curious what people think.

 

Edited June 8 by RayPlan

[MonteScheinblum]

I would start by stop trying to keep your left arm straight.  You’re massively hyperextended.  You’re also maintaining too much flex in right knee and not allowing hips to tilt correctly 

Edited June 8 by MonteScheinblum

[MK7Golf21]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I would start by stop trying to keep your left arm straight.  You’re massively hyperextended.  You’re also maintaining too much flex in right knee and not allowing hips to tilt correctly 

right arm should have 90 degrees bend at top. I’d be willing to bet yours isn’t bent that much. That’s ultimately what causes your hands to be outside your right elbow. To fix that I would listen to Monte. Seems very stiff, just soften it a bit; left arm, right arm etc. 

[RayPlan]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I would start by stop trying to keep your left arm straight.  You’re massively hyperextended.  You’re also maintaining too much flex in right knee and not allowing hips to tilt correctly 

Re: right knee and hips, I see that now, will address those in practice. Thanks.

 

Re: the hyperextended elbow is a bit of a long term project, because of a connective tissue condition/disorder I seem to have (not officially diagnosed, but overall joint mobility fits the diagnostic criteria). When it just feels straight, it's actually like that. At this point I have to actively feel like I'm keeping the arm bent, otherwise it just reverts that gross looking (but totally comfortable) angle. Flexing my left bicep seems to help, as long as I remember to do it. Looks like there are elbow braces out there to limit elbow extension, if it's too difficult to fix through training. Seems like it should be doable.

 

 

[Nickc]

4 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

right arm should have 90 degrees bend at top.

Well AMG in their videos on the right arm would say it should ideally be less than 90 degrees bend at the top. 

Edited June 8 by Nickc

[MK7Golf21]

4 hours ago, Nickc said:

Well AMG in their videos on the right arm would say it should ideally be less than 90 degrees bend at the top. 

That’s interesting, I haven’t really looked into the numbers. I know most ams have the opposite issue, bending it too much 

Edited June 8 by MK7Golf21

[iacas]

8 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

right arm should have 90 degrees bend at top. I’d be willing to bet yours isn’t bent that much. That’s ultimately what causes your hands to be outside your right elbow. To fix that I would listen to Monte. Seems very stiff, just soften it a bit; left arm, right arm etc. 

 

4 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

That’s interesting, I haven’t really looked into the numbers. I know most ams have the opposite issue, bending it too much (less than 90). 

 

Just change what you said to "90° or less". But yeah, Rory is about 65-70° of bend at the top, Sergio is 55°! Jon Rahm is well under 90°, etc.

[MK7Golf21]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

Just change what you said to "90° or less". But yeah, Rory is about 65-70° of bend at the top, Sergio is 55°! Jon Rahm is well under 90°, etc.

Could be the way I’m saying the angle. I was thinking the more bend in the right arm, the smaller the number. 
 

At any rate, OP was asking specifically why his hands were outside his right elbow. I thought it was because his right arm was extended more, very wide. 

[CoreyW1369]

19 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Could be the way I’m saying the angle. I was thinking the more bend in the right arm, the smaller the number. 
 

At any rate, OP was asking specifically why his hands were outside his right elbow. I thought it was because his right arm was extended more, very wide. 

That is correct - a straight arm would be 180 degrees. 
 

It almost appears to be a result of excessive shoulder turn and camera angle combined to give that look.

Edited June 8 by CoreyW1369

[MK7Golf21]

Just now, CoreyW1369 said:

That is correct - a straight arm would be 180 degrees. 
 

It almost appears to be a combined result of excessive shoulder turn and camera angle. 

yea, I looked up some AMG vids. It appears gears measures the right arm angle from the hand end to the elbow vs the shoulder end to the elbow. So I think with their measurement a straight arm would be 0 instead of 180.

[RayPlan]

5 hours ago, Nickc said:

Well AMG in their videos on the right arm would say it should ideally be less than 90 degrees bend at the top. 

 

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

That’s interesting, I haven’t really looked into the numbers. I know most ams have the opposite issue, bending it too much 

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

 

Just change what you said to "90° or less". But yeah, Rory is about 65-70° of bend at the top, Sergio is 55°! Jon Rahm is well under 90°, etc.

I know what video he's referring to. I always found their choice of angle measurement a bit unintuitive. 

 

 

When they say "less than 90°," they're talking about the angle in yellow. I would intuitively think about elbow bend as the measure of the angle between the upper arm and lower arm, measured at the elbow (teal angle).

 

So @iacas, just so we're clear, are you talking about the teal angle or the yellow one?

 

Obviously this is just lines on a 2d image, but I want to ensure consistency. Here's another illustration I made re: the teal angle measurement above, with very roughly approximated angles (don't rely on the numbers, just that it's straight, obtuse angle, right angle, and acute angle):

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

37 minutes ago, CoreyW1369 said:

That is correct - a straight arm would be 180 degrees. 
 

It almost appears to be a result of excessive shoulder turn and camera angle combined to give that look.

Not almost.

[GoGoErky]

16 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

 

 

I know what video he's referring to. I always found their choice of angle measurement a bit unintuitive. 

 

 

When they say "less than 90°," they're talking about the angle in yellow. I would intuitively think about elbow bend as the measure of the angle between the upper arm and lower arm, measured at the elbow (teal angle).

 

So @iacas, just so we're clear, are you talking about the teal angle or the yellow one?

 

Obviously this is just lines on a 2d image, but I want to ensure consistency. Here's another illustration I made re: the teal angle measurement above, with very roughly approximated angles (don't rely on the numbers, just that it's straight, obtuse angle, right angle, and acute angle):

 

 

 

The more the right arm bends the higher the angle reading. So the Sergio and Rory numbers would be less elbow bend. The reverse of what this image is showing 

 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

 

 

I know what video he's referring to. I always found their choice of angle measurement a bit unintuitive. 

 

 

When they say "less than 90°," they're talking about the angle in yellow. I would intuitively think about elbow bend as the measure of the angle between the upper arm and lower arm, measured at the elbow (teal angle).

 

So @iacas, just so we're clear, are you talking about the teal angle or the yellow one?

 

Obviously this is just lines on a 2d image, but I want to ensure consistency. Here's another illustration I made re: the teal angle measurement above, with very roughly approximated angles (don't rely on the numbers, just that it's straight, obtuse angle, right angle, and acute angle):

 

 

 

yea, being a golfer I have always seen it measured on video by instructors as angle between upper arm and lower arm. 
 

From my tiny bit of research on measuring anatomy, (15 minutes). It seems measuring from the fingers to elbow is what’s used in anatomy. So the angle from where the forearm is when arm is completely straight. 
 

Doesn’t really matter but probably best to show the person how you are measuring, then there is no confusion. AMG videos I saw show how it’s measured in the video so it’s clear with their numbers. I made that mistake too just by throwing numbers out. 
 

 

 

Edited June 8 by MK7Golf21

[golferdude54]

The right forearm pointing left of 12 o'clock doesn't really matter as long as the left arm isn't too flat, right elbow too bent, and the club is on-plane with a flat left wrist. It's when the left arm get Matt Kuchar left arm flat that it becomes problematic. Your club is just slightly off-plane as in across the line a little bit so you do this Rory-like arm dropping transition which can make you get stuck and hit blocks/push-hooks on days where you're off.

[virtuoso]

32 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

The right forearm pointing left of 12 o'clock doesn't really matter as long as the left arm isn't too flat, right elbow too bent, and the club is on-plane with a flat left wrist. It's when the left arm get Matt Kuchar left arm flat that it becomes problematic. Your club is just slightly off-plane as in across the line a little bit so you do this Rory-like arm dropping transition which can make you get stuck and hit blocks/push-hooks on days where you're off.

Accept that it really only matters where the shaft points at P6, so that’s not a concern here. Most of his swings in the past have had the shaft thrown away and pointing left at P6, with the ball starting left of the world. I wish he’d get more stuck more often.

[Nickc]

For trail arm bend I like this training aid used by Nelly korda

 

And have one!

Edited June 8 by Nickc
Changed the auto correction from Jordan to korda!!

[virtuoso]

For the purposes of Ray improving his swing, this trail arm bend discussion, for the most part, is a waste of time.

Edited June 8 by virtuoso

[Nickc]

9 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

For the purposes of Ray improving his swing, this trail arm bend discussion, for the most part, is a waste of time.

Yes agree but the topic was raised by someone as something he should look at even though the amount of bend he has looks to be in the ok ball park.

The drill above was added for those who might want to work on this since it had been raised.

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, Nickc said:

Yes agree but the topic was raised by someone as something he should look at even though the amount of bend he has looks to be in the ok ball park.

The drill above was added for those who might want to work on this since it had been raised.

No issue with your post. My post was a begging, almost pleading attempt to get Raymond to focus on the things critical to making his swing more functional.

[Cwebb]

13 hours ago, RayPlan said:

I have a tendency to get into a particular arm position at P4 that seems to set me up for some issues in the downswing. Here's the static image of what I'm looking at:

 

 

My hands are a bit outside my right elbow in DTL view, compared to Adam Scott. Not sure exactly what explains the differences in arm structure at the top.

 

And here's the video:

 

 

 

I can spot discrete flaws, but I'm trying to get at the root cause. One issue I've had pointed out to me is not enough chest rotation at the start. Not sure if that's the main issue, but it seems possible. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm making some improper arm movement as well. The pieces of the puzzle fit together in interesting and unexpected ways.

 

I don't have a handicap, and I mainly just practice, though I may play my first round this year in the next couple weeks. I'm not worried about wrecking a functional swing, in other words. 

 

Curious what people think.

 

 

His left arm angle is higher than yours, which then forces his right arm into the different angle

[getitdaily]

I bend my arm. Then I unbend my arm. Then I bend the other arm.

 

That's about all the arm bend i think about.

[iacas]

Spoiler

4 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

At any rate, OP was asking specifically why his hands were outside his right elbow. I thought it was because his right arm was extended more, very wide. 

 

Rory BENDS his right arm from almost straight 65° or so. The angle would be about 115° as measured from shoulder to elbow to wrist.

 

You cannot measure angles like this in 2D unless you're nearly perfectly perpendicular to the plane of that angle. You cannot measure right elbow bend from down the line unless your right elbow is really, really far around behind you.

 

 

Rory's right elbow angle is WIDER than 90° in that photo, but it appears to be well under 90°.

 

2D ≠ 3D.

 

Anyway, I agree with @virtuoso:

 

31 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

For the purposes of Ray improving his swing, this trail arm bend discussion, for the most part, is a waste of time.

 

[MK7Golf21]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Rory BENDS his right arm from almost straight 65° or so. The angle would be about 115° as measured from shoulder to elbow to wrist.

 

You cannot measure angles like this in 2D unless you're nearly perfectly perpendicular to the plane of that angle. You cannot measure right elbow bend from down the line unless your right elbow is really, really far around behind you.

 

 

Rory's right elbow angle is WIDER than 90° in that photo, but it appears to be well under 90°.

 

2D ≠ 3D.

 

Anyway, I agree with @virtuoso:

 

 

that is pretty interesting about Rory not having much bend of his right arm, can’t see that in 2d. 

 

 

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

For the purposes of Ray improving his swing, this trail arm bend discussion, for the most part, is a waste of time.

yea, I was going to add that it might not even be worth working on but was just answering his question. However, I did say to work on what Monte said. 
 

I will say this though, many years ago I had pretty wide right elbow. I worked on bending it a little more closer to 90 based on work I was doing with an instructor. It actually helped my swing, my hands got less deep and more in front as a result. I’d say the OP has a little of that going on. 

[virtuoso]

11 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

that is pretty interesting about Rory not having much bend of his right arm, can’t see that in 2d. 

 

 

yea, I was going to add that it might not even be worth working on but was just answering his question. However, I did say to work on what Monte said. 
 

I will say this though, many years ago I had pretty wide right elbow. I worked on bending it a little more closer to 90 based on work I was doing with an instructor. It actually helped my swing, my hands got less deep and more in front as a result. I’d say the OP has a little of that going on. 

The issue translating into the arm assembly is that he turns his shoulders 235 degrees.

[MonteScheinblum]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

 

Just change what you said to "90° or less". But yeah, Rory is about 65-70° of bend at the top, Sergio is 55°! Jon Rahm is well under 90°, etc.

Yea but John Daly bends his 120*😜

[Hawkeye77]

Is the other thread dead? I’m guessing all the suggestions on fixing the backswing were parsed over many times?

[RayPlan]

33 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Is the other thread dead? I’m guessing all the suggestions on fixing the backswing were parsed over many times?

The other thread outlived its original purpose, and got far too bloated. I've got my assignment now, so I'll go dormant in this thread until further notice.

[RayPlan]

Actually went to the range. I'd like to focus on this shot, which had my best contact in recent memory (ball-then-divot), but was sort of marred by losing my balance right at the end. There are still plenty of issues here, but my priority work has been paying off. Still having the overrotation in the backswing sometimes, including here.

 

 

 

What I'm wondering is whether I might be exacerbating this with my wrist conditions in the backswing. Specifically, I'm wondering if I need to work on my wrist set, as it seems like my wrist angle with the club stays pretty obtuse, possibly getting close to 90° at the top, after my right shoulder overrotates.

 

I used to try to do a really late wrist set (and float load 😔), so this seems like probable vestige of that pattern. I would think an earlier wrist hinge could trigger the feeling of completing the the turn earlier, keeping that overrun slop out of the system.

 

Any validity to this idea of earlier wrist set to prevent overrotating?

[TheDeanAbides]

13 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Actually went to the range. I'd like to focus on this shot, which had my best contact in recent memory (ball-then-divot), but was sort of marred by losing my balance right at the end. There are still plenty of issues here, but my priority work has been paying off. Still having the overrotation in the backswing sometimes, including here.

 

 

 

What I'm wondering is whether I might be exacerbating this with my wrist conditions in the backswing. Specifically, I'm wondering if I need to work on my wrist set, as it seems like my wrist angle with the club stays pretty obtuse, possibly getting close to 90° at the top, after my right shoulder overrotates.

 

I used to try to do a really late wrist set (and float load 😔), so this seems like probable vestige of that pattern. I would think an earlier wrist hinge could trigger the feeling of completing the the turn earlier, keeping that overrun slop out of the system.

 

Any validity to this idea of earlier wrist set to prevent overrotating?

I doubt you'll see this, as I'm pretty sure you have me muted, Ray, but, yes, there's validity to that idea. You should be commended on the hard work you've put in, and I'm not going to add more noise, but the overall issue is what The Boss has been pointing out. Namely, too much of everything. Maybe it's the hypermobility, but it looks like your swing is still long drive length. 

 

You basically need to get rid of some of the slack. Anyway, if you do read this, good luck and well done.