Best Toe Side Forgiveness - Driver

[DNice26]

Curious, of the most current driver releases, what do you find has the best toe side forgiveness?  
 

I know 440 LST has it….  What else?

[cardoustie]

Solid post .. 440 max also excellent 

[dsmil]

I can’t imagine anything beating the Ping drivers where you can put the weight towards the toe. The Max and LST versions could be close here since the LST probably starts with the CG more toe sided than the Max to begin with, but the Max has more MOI overall. I love my G425 Max with the toe weight. 

[eric61]

Best I’ve seen so far this year is G440 Max. LST is good too but Max is absurd.

[grantc79]

Cobra Max K is the best I've had and thats typically my miss. 

 

Honestly though, how you set the driver up is big. If you set it to be incredibly low spin off the center trying to hit bombs any toe side miss is going to eat your lunch. 

[hammergolf]

G440 max. Literally no distance drop off or left bias. 

[Honman]

6 hours ago, DNice26 said:

Curious, of the most current driver releases, what do you find has the best toe side forgiveness?  
 

I know 440 LST has it….  What else?

I swung it like a dog today, and the G440LST saved me every time, especially on toe strikes. I didn't even have the weight on the toe. For me this is the driver of the year. 

[DNice26]

53 minutes ago, Honman said:

I swung it like a dog today, and the G440LST saved me every time, especially on toe strikes. I didn't even have the weight on the toe. For me this is the driver of the year. 

It’s a unicorn.

[Rbsiedsc]

Mizuno st max is decent. Much more playable than the epic max ls 

[Honman]

20 minutes ago, DNice26 said:

It’s a unicorn.

I really enjoyed 10K last year as well, but this is better for disntance I think. 

[Mobert19]

1 hour ago, Honman said:

I swung it like a dog today, and the G440LST saved me every time, especially on toe strikes. I didn't even have the weight on the toe. For me this is the driver of the year. 

That much better than the 430 LST?

[DNice26]

5 minutes ago, Mobert19 said:

That much better than the 430 LST?

I played the 430 LST and now the 440 LST.  Only difference IMHO, 440 launches a hair higher and feels/sounds waaaaay better.  It’s softer feeling.  

[Valtiel]

9 hours ago, DNice26 said:

I know 440 LST has it….  What else?

 

9 hours ago, cardoustie said:

440 max also excellent 

 

7 hours ago, dsmil said:

I can’t imagine anything beating the Ping drivers where you can put the weight towards the toe. 

 

7 hours ago, eric61 said:

Best I’ve seen so far this year is G440 Max. LST is good too but Max is absurd.

 

4 hours ago, hammergolf said:

G440 max. Literally no distance drop off or left bias. 

 

2 hours ago, Honman said:

I swung it like a dog today, and the G440LST saved me every time, especially on toe strikes. I didn't even have the weight on the toe. For me this is the driver of the year. 

Trying to argue anything other than the modern PING drivers for this is IMO an exercise in trying to find at *best*  lateral move. Their overall design approach to high MOI combined with the massive moveable weight that you can slam in the toe is honestly not something you're going to improve upon for toe forgiveness. 

The real question IMO is the combo of toe forgiveness + center performance as it's always a bit of a trade-off. The further you move weight to the toe, the less efficient the center will be. The 410 line actually had this issue because you could move the weight SO far away from the center without intermediate positions that you had to get crafty with mixing and matching weights to not create an extreme fade bias with where the toe position was for the weight. "Fixing" this was part of the 425 marketing IIRC, but if you live in the toe and don't mind the center being less efficient and fade-y then the 410+ is worth trying if you want to save some $$$. 

[cardoustie]

Agree @Valtiel … weight in the centre is sooooo good on centre strikes

[DNice26]

12 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

 

 

 

 

Trying to argue anything other than the modern PING drivers for this is IMO an exercise in trying to find at *best*  lateral move. Their overall design approach to high MOI combined with the massive moveable weight that you can slam in the toe is honestly not something you're going to improve upon for toe forgiveness. 

The real question IMO is the combo of toe forgiveness + center performance as it's always a bit of a trade-off. The further you move weight to the toe, the less efficient the center will be. The 410 line actually had this issue because you could move the weight SO far away from the center without intermediate positions that you had to get crafty with mixing and matching weights to not create an extreme fade bias with where the toe position was for the weight. "Fixing" this was part of the 425 marketing IIRC, but if you live in the toe and don't mind the center being less efficient and fade-y then the 410+ is worth trying if you want to save some $$$. 

Someone mentioned the Cobra Max K.  So it’s not just ping.  If I recall from Coolckubs or some other YT testing, the Qi35 LS I think they rated highly off the toe.  

[phizzy30]

AI smoke and Elyte line have crazy toe side forgiveness.  I play the AI smoke TD for this exact reason.  G440 line is also pretty forgiving off the toe.  

[J-Walker]

Cobra DS-A LS and TM QI35 LS are both super forgiving off of the toe. 

[Valtiel]

17 hours ago, DNice26 said:

Someone mentioned the Cobra Max K.  So it’s not just ping.  If I recall from Coolckubs or some other YT testing, the Qi35 LS I think they rated highly off the toe.  

But to my point, the Cobra Max K is likely deriving that performance mainly from the extremely high MOI. And that's great, for most people that's good enough, BUT PING has options with similar levels of MOI *and* a moveable weight. Therefore purely on the basis of toe forgiveness you have more options with PING. Oftentimes the "Max" heads in any given lineup have more centered or even slightly heel side CGs, therefore toe forgiveness is *good* but not as good as it could be if you also have the CG shifted slightly toe side via a moveable weight. That's where the Qi35 LS comes in. Assuming it's following the same formula that TM has been using for many years now...the LS heads are a bit fade biased (CG towards the toe). This means good toe performance BUT less forgiveness elsewhere because the LS design formula also has the CG further forward. Low, more forward, and toe side is the magic combo for many people and started in earnest with the OG SIM (hence it's cult classic status). Again though....a compromise. The "low spin" component comes from lower MOI + lower CG, which means less forgiveness across the face and less efficiency out of the center. 

It's all a game of moving around a finite number of variables to create the best combinations possible. The *best* thing you can have for maximum toe forgiveness is the combo of very high MOI and a CG that is shifted toe side. The Cobra has the former and the QI35 has the latter, but several PING options have a stronger combo of both. 

Edited June 9 by Valtiel

[Nobody2]

TSR2 toe side is amazing and I should know…. Tried the g430 for a minute but wasn’t as good for me primarily bc there was more gear effect. TSR2 has very little gear effect which I love and while there is obviously some loss of distance it’s not bad at all. 

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

But to my point, the Cobra Max K is likely deriving that performance mainly from the extremely high MOI. And that's great, for most people that's good enough, BUT PING has options with similar levels of MOI *and* a moveable weight. Therefore purely on the basis of toe forgiveness you have more options with PING. Oftentimes the "Max" head sin any given lineup have more centered or even slightly heel side CGs, therefore toe forgiveness is *good* but not as good as it could be if you also have the CG shifted slightly toe side. That's where the Qi35 LS comes in. Assuming it's following the same formula that TM has been using for many years now...the LS heads are a bit face biased (CG towards the toe). This means good toe performance BUT less forgiveness elsewhere because the LS design formula also has the CG further forward. Low, more forward, and toe side is the magic combo for many people and started in earnest with the OG SIM (hence it's cult classic status). Again though....a compromise. The "low spin" component comes from lower MOI + lower CG, which means less forgiveness across the face and less efficiency out of the center. 

It's all a game of moving around a finite number of variables to create the best combinations possible. The *best* thing you can have for maximum toe forgiveness is the combo of very high MOI and a CG that is shifted toe side. The Cobra has the former and the QI35 has the latter, but several PING options have a stronger combo of both. 

You need to get paid by TM for posting this type of in-depth info.

Edited June 9 by phizzy30

[gumpy]

I’ve used the entire face of the g430 10k and the ball still goes… compared to my mini the toe strikes are super forgiving. Only one data point sorry but yeah very impressed with it. 

[KGrinols]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The *best* thing you can have for maximum toe forgiveness is the combo of very high MOI and a CG that is shifted toe side. The Cobra has the former and the QI35 has the latter, but several PING options have a stronger combo of both. 

 

Curious how you feel about PXG drivers as their weight system seems to be clearly superior to anyone else's, combined with previous Ping engineers.  Doesn't mean the club as a whole is the best, but when it comes to moving weight around to maximize your miss, just curious of your thoughts?

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, Nobody2 said:

TSR2 toe side is amazing and I should know…. Tried the g430 for a minute but wasn’t as good for me primarily bc there was more gear effect. TSR2 has very little gear effect which I love and while there is obviously some loss of distance it’s not bad at all. 

I can attest to that as well, I have season's worth of wear to make me an honorary member of the Toe Society. I would say though that IMO the TSR2 is great in this regard but for someone that still wants to draw the ball. Lots of guys are faders that want the toe side to go as straight as possible and others like me are neutral to slight drawers that want the toe side to simply not over-hook. If you gave me a SUPER toe-side CG driver i'd probably hit more slight blocks than i'd be comfortable with, and the fractional toe side sweet spot on the TSR2 is a good middle ground for me. That little black circle in the link above the measured CG location of the head and it's just a *little* bit toe side. 
 

1 hour ago, KGrinols said:

 

Curious how you feel about PXG drivers as their weight system seems to be clearly superior to anyone else's, combined with previous Ping engineers.  Doesn't mean the club as a whole is the best, but when it comes to moving weight around to maximize your miss, just curious of your thoughts?

On paper the heel/toe socketed weight system they use can create some big CG movements, but I dislike the fewer toe options (way more heel biased ones) and the overall approach has some drawbacks for me that IMO other manufacturers have overcome, including PING themselves. With the curved shape of a traditional driver sole you're limited to how far heel/toe you can move something before it moves "up" quite a bit, if that makes sense. The Taylormade M5 suffered from this in that any attempt to push weights back or heel/toe raised CG to the point that it actually became a very high CG, higher spinning driver when you didn't have the weights forward. If we look at the PXG GEN5 then, it comes stock with a pair of 2.5g and 7.5g weights for a total of 20g of moveable weight all over the head. However you'd have to consolidate that into single heavier weights to really start affecting more CG change and leaving other weights out (or having higher swingweights). You could get a 15g weight and put it in the toe while dumping one of the 7.5g weights and have a decent amount of CG movement towards the toe, but it will also move up the face AND more forward because of the weight location. Personally this is a tradeoff I don't like because when you move weight forward you decrease MOI, which increases gear effect, and when you move weight up it increases spin strike for strike. In making those PXG drivers very fade biased/toe friendly you do that Taylormade M5 thing where spin will increase AND any other mishits will get a little worse. It's not the end of the world of course, but it's kinda *less* optimal. 

The fixed track style system that PING uses combined with the size of the weight IMO is superior as these drawbacks are largely negated. The movement range is obviously far less, but the weight itself is much larger so you can still affect meaningful CG movement within that smaller range. You basically have to move a 7.5g weight 4x the distance as a 29g one for the same CG movement. And when you do so, the weight doesn't move vertically (sole to crown) so the vertical CG is relatively unaffected meaning spin performance stays far more consistent strike for strike.

The caveat over all of this is you really need to be striking the face in a VERY consistent pattern for this to really matter at all. At the end of the day the average player is best off with the highest MOI they can get in a look that suits their eye. 

Edited June 9 by Valtiel

[phizzy30]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I can attest to that as well, I have season's worth of wear to make me an honorary member of the Toe Society. I would say though that IMO the TSR2 is great in this regard but for someone that still wants to draw the ball. Lots of guys are faders that want the toe side to go as straight as possible and others like me are neutral to slight drawers that want the toe side to simply not over-hook. If you gave me a SUPER toe-side CG driver i'd probably hit more slight blocks than i'd be comfortable with, and the fractional toe side sweet spot on the TSR2 is a good middle ground for me. That little black circle in the link above the measured CG location of the head and it's just a *little* bit toe side. 
 

On paper the heel/toe socketed weight system they use can create some big CG movements, but I dislike the fewer toe options (way more heel biased ones) and the overall approach has some drawbacks for me that IMO other manufacturers have overcome, including PING themselves. With the curved shape of a traditional driver sole you're limited to how far heel/toe you can move something before it moves "up" quite a bit, if that makes sense. The Taylormade M5 suffered from this in that any attempt to push weights back or heel/toe raised CG to the point that it actually became a very high CG, higher spinning driver when you didn't have the weights forward. If we look at the PXG GEN5 then, it comes stock with a pair of 2.5g and 7.5g weights for a total of 20g of moveable weight all over the head. However you'd have to consolidate that into single heavier weights to really start affecting more CG change and leaving other weights out (or having higher swingweights). You could get a 15g weight and put it in the toe while dumping one of the 7.5g weights and have a decent amount of CG movement towards the toe, but it will also move up the face AND more forward because of the weight location. Personally this is a tradeoff I don't like because when you move weight forward you decrease MOI, which increases gear effect, and when you move weight up it increases spin strike for strike. In making those PXG drivers very fade biased/toe friendly you do that Taylormade M5 thing where spin will increase AND any other mishits will get a little worse. It's not the end of the world of course, but it's kinda *less* optimal. 

The fixed track style system that PING uses combined with the size of the weight IMO is superior as these drawbacks are largely negated. The movement range is obviously far less, but the weight itself is much larger so you can still affect meaningful CG movement within that smaller range. You basically have to move a 7.5g weight 4x the distance as a 29g one for the same CG movement. And when you do so, the weight doesn't move vertically (sole to crown) so the vertical CG is relatively unaffected meaning spin performance stays far more consistent strike for strike.

The caveat over all of this is you really need to be striking the face in a VERY consistent pattern for this to really matter at all. At the end of the day the average player is best off with the highest MOI they can get in a look that suits their eye. 

Welcome to the toe bro club.  We'll make you honorary chairman of the board.  

[phizzy30]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I can attest to that as well, I have season's worth of wear to make me an honorary member of the Toe Society. I would say though that IMO the TSR2 is great in this regard but for someone that still wants to draw the ball. Lots of guys are faders that want the toe side to go as straight as possible and others like me are neutral to slight drawers that want the toe side to simply not over-hook. If you gave me a SUPER toe-side CG driver i'd probably hit more slight blocks than i'd be comfortable with, and the fractional toe side sweet spot on the TSR2 is a good middle ground for me. That little black circle in the link above the measured CG location of the head and it's just a *little* bit toe side. 
 

On paper the heel/toe socketed weight system they use can create some big CG movements, but I dislike the fewer toe options (way more heel biased ones) and the overall approach has some drawbacks for me that IMO other manufacturers have overcome, including PING themselves. With the curved shape of a traditional driver sole you're limited to how far heel/toe you can move something before it moves "up" quite a bit, if that makes sense. The Taylormade M5 suffered from this in that any attempt to push weights back or heel/toe raised CG to the point that it actually became a very high CG, higher spinning driver when you didn't have the weights forward. If we look at the PXG GEN5 then, it comes stock with a pair of 2.5g and 7.5g weights for a total of 20g of moveable weight all over the head. However you'd have to consolidate that into single heavier weights to really start affecting more CG change and leaving other weights out (or having higher swingweights). You could get a 15g weight and put it in the toe while dumping one of the 7.5g weights and have a decent amount of CG movement towards the toe, but it will also move up the face AND more forward because of the weight location. Personally this is a tradeoff I don't like because when you move weight forward you decrease MOI, which increases gear effect, and when you move weight up it increases spin strike for strike. In making those PXG drivers very fade biased/toe friendly you do that Taylormade M5 thing where spin will increase AND any other mishits will get a little worse. It's not the end of the world of course, but it's kinda *less* optimal. 

The fixed track style system that PING uses combined with the size of the weight IMO is superior as these drawbacks are largely negated. The movement range is obviously far less, but the weight itself is much larger so you can still affect meaningful CG movement within that smaller range. You basically have to move a 7.5g weight 4x the distance as a 29g one for the same CG movement. And when you do so, the weight doesn't move vertically (sole to crown) so the vertical CG is relatively unaffected meaning spin performance stays far more consistent strike for strike.

The caveat over all of this is you really need to be striking the face in a VERY consistent pattern for this to really matter at all. At the end of the day the average player is best off with the highest MOI they can get in a look that suits their eye. 

Love this post.  How does Callaway do it?  Their last two generation of drivers have been absolutely fantastic in mitigating most of the gear effect out towards the toe while retaining spin.  The TD versions don't have sliding weights but Callaway has managed to still make them very toe friendly.  Have they moved a good portion of weight towards the toe?  

Edited June 9 by phizzy30

[rsballer10]

14 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Agree @Valtiel … weight in the centre is sooooo good on centre strikes

underrated comment 🤣

[Ironcovers]

To all the club techs, my miss is toe strike and snap pull hook. Currently using TSR3

 

Would G440LST be a good alternative?

 

I am a good player, but random snap hook is annoying. Pure when you hit it solid but feels like no forgiveness

 

Re: i play a straight shot to a small draw. Current TSR3 with ventus 6x black shaft

Edited June 11 by Ironcovers

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, Ironcovers said:

To all the club techs, my miss is toe strike and snap pull hook. Currently using TSR3

 

Would G440LST be a good alternative?

 

I am a good player, but random snap hook is annoying. Pure when you hit it solid but feels like no forgiveness

 

Re: i play a straight shot to a small draw. Current TSR3 with ventus 6x black shaft

That's my miss and I'm in the AI Smoke TD.  It's the most anti-left driver in the last 2 years, IMO, and low spin.  For many years, I would lose balls left and it would drive me absolutely nuts until the AI Smoke TD.  I can hit a fade or draw on command now and misses off the toe stay in play and retain spin.  G440 LST is really good off the toe but it's not quite as fade biased as Smoke TD.  I think you'll be happy with either one, but if you want something extremely fade biased, lower launch/spin, then Smoke TD is the way to go.  G440 LST does have one thing over the Smoke TD in that is it has higher ball speed retention off the heel.  I feel you on the TSR3.  It's got a small sweet spot but an absolute cannon when pured, however, not very forgiving especially toe side.  GT2 is another option to look at as Titleist has gotten better at toe side forgiveness, however, I found it neutral bias.  

Edited June 11 by phizzy30

[booty4]

On 6/8/2025 at 7:57 PM, Nobody2 said:

TSR2 toe side is amazing and I should know…. Tried the g430 for a minute but wasn’t as good for me primarily bc there was more gear effect. TSR2 has very little gear effect which I love and while there is obviously some loss of distance it’s not bad at all. 

Wait till you try the GT2, its like night and day compared to the TSR2.  I primarily fade it but toe side misses are just straight with almost no loss in distance.  

[Flip4000]

I have the AI Smoke Triple Diamond Max, and it is quite forgiving on toe hits if you can find one