On course: Moving ball deflected into hole

[Augster]

Hey,

 

Just like Mickleson a few years ago. Player putts his 3 footer, it’s sliding by, and he reaches out and deflects the moving ball into the hole. 
 

What is his score. Par 4, on in 2, putt, putt, putt, deflect, holed. Is it a 7? 2-stroke penalty?

 

Thanks. 

[iacas]

Did you look at the Rules before asking? Did you look at and read Rule 11.2?

 

Give a man a fish…

[nsxguy]

31 minutes ago, Augster said:

Hey,

 

Just like Mickleson a few years ago. Player putts his 3 footer, it’s sliding by, and he reaches out and deflects the moving ball into the hole. 
 

What is his score. Par 4, on in 2, putt, putt, putt, deflect, holed. Is it a 7? 2-stroke penalty?

 

Thanks. 

 

Sounds like 8.

 

On in 2. Putt, putt, putt makes 5. I'm assuming the "deflect" is of the 3rd putt, so that's the guy's 4th putt, total of 6 in the hole. Then the GP of 2 more.

 

So, I come up with 8. 

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sounds like 8.

 

On in 2. Putt, putt, putt makes 5. I'm assuming the "deflect" is of the 3rd putt, so that's the guy's 4th putt, total of 6 in the hole. Then the GP of 2 more.

 

So, I come up with 8. 

 

Deflection is not a stroke. Apparently you did not take iacas's advice..?

 

2 talent strokes

2 putts

3rd putt -> deflection: general penalty = 2 strokes

Rule 11.2c(2): stroke must be replayed. So player lies 6 and needs to continue from the spot he putted his 3rd putt

 

 

Edited June 8 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

Rule 11.2c(2).  Player gets the General Penalty, and MUST replay the Stroke.  The ball is NOT holed by the deflection, if he begins the next hole without holing out properly, he's DQ.  As I remember, Mickelson escaped this by claiming he made a stroke at a moving ball (10.1d), rather than intentionally deflecting the ball in motion.

[nsxguy]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

Did you look at the Rules before asking? Did you look at and read Rule 11.2?

 

Give a man a fish…

 

What happens to experts in a field is they often forget the "common man" and can't understand why something SO simple to THEM, is so difficult for a lay person.

 

So Rule X leads the lay person to Rule Y, which takes them to Rule Y.6, which then guides him/her to Rule Y.6.3(d), which points to exception(s).

 

And a fair bit of the time we have to then go to the Interpretations as well.

 

It may be simple for Rules officials and guys like yourself to follow them quite easily, but for the rest of us, mostly enthusiastic players who want to follow and understand better, it ain't that easy. 

 

And see Beanie's post above, which makes my point. 

 

[edited to add] And Dave's post as well. 

Edited June 8 by nsxguy

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

What happens to experts in a field is they often forget the "common man" and can't understand why something SO simple to THEM, is so difficult for a lay person.

To be fair, @Augster has been pretty active in these rules posts for a while.  

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

What happens to experts in a field is they often forget the "common man" and can't understand why something SO simple to THEM, is so difficult for a lay person.

 

So Rule X leads the lay person to Rule Y, which takes them to Rule Y.6, which then guides him/her to Rule Y.6.3(d), which points to exception(s).

 

And a fair bit of the time we have to then go to the Interpretations as well.

 

It may be simple for Rules officials and guys like yourself to follow them quite easily, but for the rest of us, mostly enthusiastic players who want to follow and understand better, it ain't that easy. 

 

And see Beanie's post above, which makes my point. 

 

[edited to add] And Dave's post as well. 

 

I can understand that sometimes finding the correct Rule is difficult for a person not familiar with the Book but in this instance there is a direct TITLE to this dilemma and that can be easily found via a search either from the USGA website or from the Rules app (which I heartily recommend everyone to download). So not trying to find an answer in this case is lazyness, IMO.

 

Edited June 8 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Deflection is not a stroke. Apparently you did not take iacas's advice..?

 

2 talent strokes

deflection: general penalty = 2 strokes

Rule 11.2c(2): stroke must be replayed. So player lies 4 and needs to continue from the spot he putted his 1st putt

 

 

Actually I did take iacas' advice and did read Rulee 11, and 14, and, and, and

 

And isn't that sad ? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Auggie said "What is his score. Par 4, on in 2, putt, putt, putt, deflect, holed.

Player lies 4 ?"

 

On in 2, putt, putt, putt is 5 right there, no ?.

 

Was it NOT the 3rd putt that was deflected into the hole ? So deflection or hitting a moving ball was after/or the 3rd putt that was rolling. Does that mean the 3rd putt doesn't count ? 

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Actually I did take iacas' advice and did read Rulee 11, and 14, and, and, and

 

And isn't that sad ? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Auggie said "What is his score. Par 4, on in 2, putt, putt, putt, deflect, holed.

Player lies 4 ?"

 

On in 2, putt, putt, putt is 5 right there, no ?.

 

Was it NOT the 3rd putt that was deflected into the hole ? So deflection or hitting a moving ball was after/or the 3rd putt that was rolling. Does that mean the 3rd putt doesn't count ? 

 

That's what the Rule says: "The player must replay the stroke ..."

 

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To be fair, @Augster has been pretty active in these rules posts for a while.  

 

Agreed, but so am I (active), but I'm certainly no expert. At least I'm sure PLENTY of you can agree with me (finally) about THAT !!! 

 

But personally, I wouldn't think of him as an "expert". Probably considerably better than I, but not an expert (or what I used to call a "Rulie").

 

Maybe I'm wrong - it would hardly be the first time. And I'm sure I provide Mr B with some amusement from time to time. 

[Mr. Bean]

To be absolutely honest I had to read the Rule very closely and digest it thoroughly before I dared to write my answer down. This is because deliberate deflections are so rare that it is not one of the common things happening on any competition. So far I have never had to rule such a case IRL.

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

To be absolutely honest I had to read the Rule very closely and digest it thoroughly before I dared to write my answer down. This is because deliberate deflections are so rare that it is not one of the common things happening on any competition. So far I have never had to rule such a case IRL.

 

Thank you for at least admitting the Rules aren't always quite so easy to follow. 👍

[Augster]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Did you look at the Rules before asking? Did you look at and read Rule 11.2?

 

Give a man a fish…

I’m on the course for Pete’s sake. 

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Rule 11.2c(2).  Player gets the General Penalty, and MUST replay the Stroke.  The ball is NOT holed by the deflection, if he begins the next hole without holing out properly, he's DQ.  As I remember, Mickelson escaped this by claiming he made a stroke at a moving ball (10.1d), rather than intentionally deflecting the ball in motion.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

That's what the Rule says: "The player must replay the stroke ..."

 

OK, so bear with me a little longer, gents.

 

I guess I can visualize the difference between a deflection and a stroke, so THAT is the difference (I suppose). This player was apparently(?) close enough to the hole, i.e. a very short putt, so that as his putt missed the hole, he was able to quickly reach past the hole, and just place his putter behind the moving ball and "defelected" it into the hole, as opposed to him making a stroke (by definition) at the ball ?

 

OK, I guess I can buy that given a short, but severe UPhill putt, that is stopped by just placing the putter down and the ball bumping into it and making it reverse course slightly DOWNhill and drop. I suppose it's possible. I can't visualize it any other way.

 

So Phil avoided DQ because he DID make a stroke at a moving ball ? Got it. Of course, he could've let the ball roll off the green and taken a S&D penalty, but whatev. 

 

So OK, player hit 2 putts, now lying 4. Next "putt" is deflected, so it doesn't count. Player replaces and is now lying 6 with the 2 PS, and goes on from there ?

 

Easy peasy !!! 

 

And good luck to Augie, who's on the course and probably trying to figure this out - from the Rule book. 

 

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Thank you for at least admitting the Rules aren't always quite so easy to follow. 👍

 

Well, that was not what I was saying. What I was saying that this kind of case comes up so rarely that I needed to be very sure what I write in order not to make any mistakes.

 

What I do admit is that for an Average Joe it is not easy to find ALL the answers from the Rules but even he should be able to find Rules for cut&dry cases like this one is. Using the Rules app would help him tremendously.

[Augster]

It was at least as much of a stroke as micklesons. The only difference is that this player didn’t move his feet. He crouched and reached and batted it with his putter face as not the hole. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

[Mr. Bean]

I opened my Rule app and wrote into the search "ball deliberately deflected". In 10 seconds I found that a player deflecting gets a General Penalty and by opening the related Rule 11.2 it took another 15 seconds to find that the stroke must be replayed.

 

So total of 25 seconds + writing the three words, maybe 30 seconds in total. Shouldn't be too difficult for an Average Joe or to @Augster who needed much more time to write down the case and open a new thread for it. Not to mention waiting for the correct answer... 😎

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Augster said:

It was at least as much of a stroke as micklesons. The only difference is that this player didn’t move his feet. He crouched and reached and batted it with his putter face as not the hole. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

 

Now the story changes and so does the Ruling.

 

According to Rule 10.1d penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball is General Penalty and the stroke counts. So:

2 onto the green

3 putts

2 penalty strokes

Total of 7 strokes and hole completed.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

It was at least as much of a stroke as micklesons. The only difference is that this player didn’t move his feet. He crouched and reached and batted it with his putter face as not the hole. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

 

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

I opened my Rule app and wrote into the search "ball deliberately deflected". In 10 seconds I found that a player deflecting gets a General Penalty and by opening the related Rule 11.2 it took another 15 seconds to find that the stroke must be replayed.

 

So total of 25 seconds + writing the three words, maybe 30 seconds in total. Shouldn't be too difficult for an Average Joe or to @Augster who needed much more time to write down the case and open a new thread for it. Not to mention waiting for the correct answer... 😎

 

Except, as it somewhat ironically turns out, the ball wasn't deflected.  

 

As I hear with some regularity, "The Rules aren't hard. The facts are." 

[nsxguy]

Anywho.

 

For those of you ("Rulies") who get annoyed, aggravated, whatever, by stupid questions, wrong answers, etc., I actually HAVE a possible solution for you.

 

Give the kids their own sandbox.

 

You'd need the board's approval and participation, but I'm pretty sure it's relatively easy and very straightforward for them.

 

Request the board to break up the Rules and Etiquette forum into 2 separate ones. They'd need to make a new "member group", a new forum, and restrict posting privileges to the new member group.

 

A "Rules of Golf" forum where ONLY designated Rules Officials and other "qualified posters" (iacas leaps to mind) can post to discuss the Rules, Interpretation etc, among themselves.

 

And a 2nd forum, I guess THIS existing forum, where others can ask questions, discuss the Rules (and etiquette), and be as right or as wrong as they like, and where, of course, officials are invited to post as well.

 

I believe it would be as simple as making another group of posters "Officials", changing the "member group" of those OF you officials (and iacas to name one other).

 

Then, in the new group, ONLY "Rules Officials Only" ONLY whose in the new member group would have permission to post and discuss.

 

What do you think ?

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Except, as it somewhat ironically turns out, the ball wasn't deflected.  

 

As I hear with some regularity, "The Rules aren't hard. The facts are." 

 

It took less than 20 seconds to find Rule 10.1d (playing moving ball).

 

But you are right. One cannot get correct answers by asking wrong questions. But nobody in their right mind would claim that the Rules are difficult because facts are wrong. Or what do you think?

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

Anywho.

 

For those of you ("Rulies") who get annoyed, aggravated, whatever, by stupid questions, wrong answers, etc., I actually HAVE a possible solution for you.

 

Give the kids their own sandbox.

 

You'd need the board's approval and participation, but I'm pretty sure it's relatively easy and very straightforward for them.

 

Request the board to break up the Rules and Etiquette forum into 2 separate ones. They'd need to make a new "member group", a new forum, and restrict posting privileges to the new member group.

 

A "Rules of Golf" forum where ONLY designated Rules Officials and other "qualified posters" (iacas leaps to mind) can post to discuss the Rules, Interpretation etc, among themselves.

 

And a 2nd forum, I guess THIS existing forum, where others can ask questions, discuss the Rules (and etiquette), and be as right or as wrong as they like, and where, of course, officials are invited to post as well.

 

I believe it would be as simple as making another group of posters "Officials", changing the "member group" of those OF you officials (and iacas to name one other).

 

Then, in the new group, ONLY "Rules Officials Only" ONLY whose in the new member group would have permission to post and discuss.

 

What do you think ?

 

This is already the 2nd forum and there are a few nice forums for those who want to dig deeper.

 

So, I say no.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

To be fair, @Augster has been pretty active in these rules posts for a while.  

Was my thought too

[iacas]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Rule 11.2c(2).  Player gets the General Penalty, and MUST replay the Stroke.  The ball is NOT holed by the deflection, if he begins the next hole without holing out properly, he's DQ.  As I remember, Mickelson escaped this by claiming he made a stroke at a moving ball (10.1d), rather than intentionally deflecting the ball in motion.

 

Yes, and John Daly at Pinehurst before him. They both "made a forward movement of the club with the intent to strike the ball" (my paraphrasing; not the exact definition). The OP used the word "deflected" and it takes a few seconds to find words like "ball in motion deflected."

 

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

What happens to experts in a field is they often forget the "common man" and can't understand why something SO simple to THEM, is so difficult for a lay person.

 

The rule is literally called:

Rule 11 - … Deliberate Actions to Affect Ball in Motion

 

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

But personally, I wouldn't think of him as an "expert". Probably considerably better than I, but not an expert (or what I used to call a "Rulie").

 

Think what you want, but I've been a Rules Official for a decade and have officiated national championships for the USGA and local championships for my AGA, high school and college events, etc. I've scored well above 90 on the rules test(s) and the USGA considers me "expert status" so… 🤣

 

38 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Now the story changes and so does the Ruling.

 

According to Rule 10.1d penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball is General Penalty and the stroke counts. So:

2 onto the green

3 putts

2 penalty strokes

Total of 7 strokes and hole completed.

 

If the third putt was his "stroke" that deflected the ball into the hole, yeah. If it was his third true putt that he then then deflected, add one of course.

 

I still think the USGA went the wrong way on that one with the John Daly/Phil ruling and that they should have been DQed for intentionally deflecting their ball under the old 1-2, but they set the precedent with the John Daly ruling and so Phil also got a pass. But whatever; it's decided case law at this point.

[Naptime]

Regardless of the official rules on stroke count I would not play another round with him on the grounds of poor sportsmanship and being a jerk.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

It was at least as much of a stroke as micklesons. The only difference is that this player didn’t move his feet. He crouched and reached and batted it with his putter face as not the hole. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

I have a suggestion for the times you have rules questions on the course.  If its a proper competition, you really need to get with a referee or other Committee member, we really have no authority.  If its a more casual round, maybe give a real quick look at the rules app, make your best guess, and play on.  When you get finished, do a little deeper research while having post-round refreshments.  As has been mentioned, the rules apps are pretty searchable, you'd have got to the right rule pretty quickly.

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

I still think the USGA went the wrong way on that one with the John Daly/Phil ruling and that they should have been DQed for intentionally deflecting their ball under the old 1-2, but they set the precedent with the John Daly ruling and so Phil also got a pass. But whatever; it's decided case law at this point.

I think the PGA of America, the USGA, the PGA Tour, the Masters, all will bend over backward to avoid DQing a popular player.  They're not suspending the rules, rather they try to find an interpretation or "loophole" that can keep the Player in the competition.  I think that happened with Tiger at the Masters, and as you say with Daly and Phil.  I don't remember the timing, I think Phil may actually have known the rule, so he was able to claim he was making a stroke, whether he really was or not.  

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now the story changes and so does the Ruling.

 

According to Rule 10.1d penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball is General Penalty and the stroke counts. So:

2 onto the green

3 putts

2 penalty strokes

Total of 7 strokes and hole completed.

Correct. After rethinking about it, it was certainly a “stroke” at the ball instead of a simple deflection. It was a slow-moving putt from about 3 feet that he was able to crouch, and try to “rake it back” but his “stroke” ended up in the hole. 
 

The fog of war of watching a guy try to rake it back in a competition was more of a shock of “WTF are you doing?” Than anything else. 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

Correct. After rethinking about it, it was certainly a “stroke” at the ball instead of a simple deflection. It was a slow-moving putt from about 3 feet that he was able to crouch, and try to “rake it back” but his “stroke” ended up in the hole. 

 

Rake it back? What does that mean? A gimmie? Replay the stroke with 1 PS? What?

 

This gets more and more peculiar post by post...

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Rake it back? What does that mean? A gimmie? Replay the stroke with 1 PS? What?

 

This gets more and more peculiar post by post...

 

There's something you DON'T know ?

 

This would be considered raking the ball back.