Grip strength and distance.

[MonteScheinblum]

This is going to be more and more discussed as the years pass.  Experts from the university of Denver surmised my ability to hit it far when I was only 6-2 and 180 pounds without much gym strength, was my 100th percentile hand/grip strength.  Just having a good swing wasn’t going to cut it.  There had to be a physical reason I could swing 150 mph while looking like it was 115.  It’s so abstract  I’d put up videos on Instagram swinging 130 with 190+ balls speed at age 50 and people would call BS even though I put the camera on the flight scope as the animation and numbers came up after videoing the swing.  I’d get accused of being a lair and juicing the numbers somehow.

 

Here are the 49ers doing a test and you can see it’s a wide variation.  
 

I hear this seemingly every day……”I’m more fit, more flexible, stronger and have a better swing than my friend Eugene, but he out drives me by 20 yards.”

 

Maybe this is part…..or all of it.

 

When you see I did over 200 when I was 28 years old and I can still do 150/160 when my hands and wrists aren’t sore from being an old man, there might be merit to strengthening your hands might having more affect on club head speed than standard weight training.

 

I’d like to see more than just my small sample size of me versus the universe.  I’d bet Bosa smashes it even if his swing stinks.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKxz0sryNqY/?igsh=MW1sZWVpNG84cWZ4ZA==

[bortass]

We need the Monte 100…

 

 

 

[RayPlan]

14 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is going to be more and more discussed as the years pass.  Experts from the university of Denver surmised my ability to hit it far when I was only 6-2 and 180 pounds without much gym strength, was my 100th percentile hand/grip strength.  Just having a good swing wasn’t going to cut it.  There had to be a physical reason I could swing 150 mph while looking like it was 115.  It’s so abstract  I’d put up videos on Instagram swinging 130 with 190+ balls speed at age 50 and people would call BS even though I put the camera on the flight scope as the animation and numbers came up after videoing the swing.  I’d get accused of being a lair and juicing the numbers somehow.

 

Here are the 49ers doing a test and you can see it’s a wide variation.  
 

I hear this seemingly every day……”I’m more fit, more flexible, stronger and have a better swing than my friend Eugene, but he out drives me by 20 yards.”

 

Maybe this is part…..or all of it.

 

When you see I did over 200 when I was 28 years old and I can still do 150/160 when my hands and wrists aren’t sore from being an old man, there might be merit to strengthening your hands might having more affect on club head speed than standard weight training.

 

I’d like to see more than just my small sample size of me versus the universe.  I’d bet Bosa smashes it even if his swing stinks.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKxz0sryNqY/?igsh=MW1sZWVpNG84cWZ4ZA==

Word on the street is that @virtuoso also recognizes the importance of grip strength as a speed governor. You didn't hear it from me though.

 

It certainly seems compelling. Would be curious to see how a pro rock climber would fare at golf, with some good instruction. They have tremendous grip strength, in addition to their overall strength and flexibility.

[iacas]

Oh cool. I'd have come in fifth on that list.

 

In showing people how to grip the club I will put it in two fingers in my left hand (non-dominant hand) and have them try to pull it out of my grip. I've impressed quite a few people with that one.

 

https://superspeedgolf.com/products/superspeed-squeeze

 

https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

 

[golferdude54]

 

This guy in his steroid prime would've just murdered the golf ball.

[metaldog]

I remember this topic monte talked about here and there and since then I’ve specifically added grip strength and forearm work into my workouts about this past half a year

 

I haven’t put any stickers to test club speed, but my pw carry has skyrocketed from around 132 crusing to 144, and 7i from 170 to 180, launch angle if anything has increased so it doesn’t seem like it’s a fake deloft increase in carry

I agree with the sentiment from rayplan saying virtuso about it being a governer, I really feel like I can’t speed up when my lead grip is starting to fatigue.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

It would make sense it’s a governor.  Club head speed comes from how sharp the deceleration curve is in each segment.  My hip and torso deceleration isn’t as good as I’m old and fat.

 

Lead arm deceleration is still pretty good…..which is why you don’t want passive arms.  They need to accelerate early so they can decelerate late.

[golferdude54]

Traditional hand grippers only trains the non-opposable fingers. They don't train thumb strength which is needed to support the club at the top of the backswing. 

[MonteScheinblum]

51 minutes ago, bortass said:

We need the Monte 100…

 

 

 

Nice.  The running joke back in the day was almost anyone can kick Monte’s rear end, but if he gets one of his hands on something vital you’re dead.

Edited June 12 by MonteScheinblum

[RangeBaller]

Thanks for sharing Monte.  Probably shouldn't be surprising given the how baseball, hockey and stick swinging sports have observed the same.

 

I bought the "Side-Winder" many years ago after a rock climbing injury and still think it's one of the best pieces of home gym equipment I own.  Totally overkill, and you can do much the same with cheaper but I still love it.  

 

[DaveLeeNC]

It sounds like there is a strong correlation between distance and grip strength. Is it 'causal' or is there a different unlying mechanism (like general forearm strength) that is the real deal here? 

 

dave

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

I will merely repeat that my club speed and control skyrocketed once I took up competitive pistol shooting.  (Where you hold 4 or so pounds in your outstretched arm, while squeezing two of your fingers about as hard as possible.  Then gently but consistently moving your index finger as precisely as possible.)

 

I was honestly surprised.  I'm not a small guy, but going from 88-89 7-iron to 96 was really surprising.  And flirting with 130 ball speed despite trying to "*STOP*" at left arm parallel.  

 

Makes me laugh, reading the "Keep your grip pressure light", instruction advice in popular press.

[AzRoger]

Just have to be aware that having strong grip strength isn't the same as gripping the club tightly. Tour pros have been shown to have very strong grip strength, probably from pounding 1000's of balls on the range, but at the same time they don't feel like they are gripping the club tightly.

[coops]

20 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

Just have to be aware that having strong grip strength isn't the same as gripping the club tightly. Tour pros have been shown to have very strong grip strength, probably from pounding 1000's of balls on the range, but at the same time they don't feel like they are gripping the club tightly.

 

I though i saw some measurements showing they DO grip the club very forcefully... but because of their higher maximum grip strength they can still have mobility in the wrists and forearms etc (and to a person with high max grip strength, a tight grip for them won't feel as strong as someone with weaker hands).

 

Another possible example to go with Monte would be Ian Woosnam - all 5ft 4 of him.

As well as deliberately working on his hand and arm strength he was a farmer's son who had to drive a tractor without power steering, and toss hay bales around.

 

https://golf.com/instruction/ian-woosnam-bomb-gouged-masters-green-jacket/?srsltid=AfmBOooRbJW9k2hvmzFvugQYg_i8VN3_eVpGLwrBcmRe6GTJg8Hu-jFt

 

" Ian Woosnam explains. “We had tractors with no power steering. When I was plowing the fields, I had to put everything I had to roll it.”

"He’d practice trying to drive the tractor gripping only with his fingers. When the family would gather around and watch television, Woosnam would join them and squeeze tennis balls to strengthen his wrists. When those started to give out, he’d sit up against the wall and hold bricks on his thighs. One day, Woosnam had the idea of attaching one of those bricks to a stick using a rope, which quickly became one of his favorite exercises. 

“Roll it up, and down to the floor, then up and down again,” he said. “That got your wrists and forearms really strong.”

Edited June 12 by coops

[MonteScheinblum]

There is data.  

28 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

Just have to be aware that having strong grip strength isn't the same as gripping the club tightly. Tour pros have been shown to have very strong grip strength, probably from pounding 1000's of balls on the range, but at the same time they don't feel like they are gripping the club tightly.

The data is measured on percentage of max of individual and pros grip it significantly higher percentage of their max than average golfers at address.  
 

 

 

[PedronNiall]

Would be nice to get that gadget at some events and see how much variance there is between the longest and shortest hitters and what numbers the longest hitters have for lead hand strength. Massive amounts of force created by the club during the swing and we know the brain slows it down if we're swinging too hard to maintain correct delivery. 

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Oh cool. I'd have come in fifth on that list.

 

In showing people how to grip the club I will put it in two fingers in my left hand (non-dominant hand) and have them try to pull it out of my grip. I've impressed quite a few people with that one.

 

https://superspeedgolf.com/products/superspeed-squeeze

 

https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

 

 

Watched that when it came out. Was very cool seeing how much grip strength he had for his size. Also always fun seeing how chill strong men and power lifters usually are. 

[jaffabell]

So question is - what have folk found to be the easiest way to increase grip strength at home? I bought one of those grip trainers that you squeeze, just do that on and off across the day? 

[RayPlan]

7 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

It sounds like there is a strong correlation between distance and grip strength. Is it 'causal' or is there a different unlying mechanism (like general forearm strength) that is the real deal here? 

 

dave

The most intuitive explanation I've heard on the mechanism is that your body unconsciously governs the swing speed based on your grip strength to safely keep the club from flying out of your hands (or otherwise losing control of it). 

 

In other words, if your body senses that your grip strength is insufficient, it will not allow the energy generated in the swing to actually reach the club through your hands. That's the effect I described as a governor above, based on my interpretation of the virtuoso. 

[golferdude54]

4 minutes ago, jaffabell said:

So question is - what have folk found to be the easiest way to increase grip strength at home? I bought one of those grip trainers that you squeeze, just do that on and off across the day? 

 

You have to go heavier resistance when it gets too easy, it's called progressive overload. Captain of Crush hand-grippers are like the ProV1 of hand-grippers, they have many different resistances.

 

But like I said in an earlier post, it only trains the index to pinky fingers, not the thumb. The thumb has to be strong enough to support the weight of the club at the top of backswing otherwise the club gets too loose and off-plane. And you have to train the opposite movements too, hence those elastic loops around fingers to strengthen the extensor muscles.

[games]

12 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I hear this seemingly every day……”I’m more fit, more flexible, stronger and have a better swing than my friend Eugene, but he out drives me by 20 yards.”

 

Maybe this is part…..or all of it.

 

When you see I did over 200 when I was 28 years old and I can still do 150/160 when my hands and wrists aren’t sore from being an old man, there might be merit to strengthening your hands might having more affect on club head speed than standard weight training.

 

I’d like to see more than just my small sample size of me versus the universe.  I’d bet Bosa smashes it even if his swing stinks.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKxz0sryNqY/?igsh=MW1sZWVpNG84cWZ4ZA==

 

Monte, really good post. Not all of us have your bone-crushing hands, but we shouldn't let that stop us from putting the most secure grip we can on the club.

 

I have been doing a deep dive into grips and gripping the club. Your commentary dovetails nicely with what I am finding works in my own game. My pre-shot routine now includes consciously gripping the club so that my lead hand pinky and ring fingers are "locked" around the grip. When I do this and flex my hands, the clubface closes ever so slightly.

 

The "trick" is to maintain "oily" wrists while maintaining a firm finger grip. I could never figure out why I chicken-winged everything. Monte once threatened me with bodily harm if I didn't start releasing the club during a sand lesson. I now realize it was so many years of competitive bowling (left-handed, but I golf RH) where it is ingrained that you NEVER extend your wrist. My left wrist just refused to extend when I tried to release the club. I'm better at releasing the club now, but I make sure to warm up using my weighted whippy trainer to loosen my wrists, specifically my left wrist.    

 

When it comes to grips, forget grip sizing tools and trying to equate grip sizes with glove sizes. Every hand is anatomically different in terms of finger length, flexibility, thickness, and strength. Think of it this way: The size of the palm is the top determinant of your glove size, between size and fit (standard vs cadet). But, in terms of gripping the club with a conventional golf grip, the size of the palm is probably the least important metric.

[Laaandry]

5 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

But like I said in an earlier post, it only trains the index to pinky fingers, not the thumb. The thumb has to be strong enough to support the weight of the club at the top of backswing otherwise the club gets too loose and off-plane. And you have to train the opposite movements too, hence those elastic loops around fingers to strengthen the extensor muscles.

 

Then what would you use to train grip strength including thumbs? Or would you just use the grip trainer with a different grip

[KD1]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8KObVJO029/

[virtuoso]

14 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Word on the street is that @virtuoso also recognizes the importance of grip strength as a speed governor. You didn't hear it from me though.

 

It certainly seems compelling. Would be curious to see how a pro rock climber would fare at golf, with some good instruction. They have tremendous grip strength, in addition to their overall strength and flexibility.

Agreed, hand strength is the most underrated, under-talked about thing that has a huge correlation (IMO) to clubhead speed--translating energy into the handle developed at the pivot--and overall control of the sequencing and mechanics generally.

[getitdaily]

5 hours ago, jaffabell said:

So question is - what have folk found to be the easiest way to increase grip strength at home? I bought one of those grip trainers that you squeeze, just do that on and off across the day? 

 

 

[KD1]

6 hours ago, jaffabell said:

So question is - what have folk found to be the easiest way to increase grip strength at home? I bought one of those grip trainers that you squeeze, just do that on and off across the day? 

 

A 5 gallon paint bucket  + a costco quantity of rice is a cheap way to get started: https://pursueperformance.com/rice-bucket-training/

 

I also picked up one of these things which are fun: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08372XV9M?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

 

I suspect with both of the above this is true:

 

"While rice bucket training may not directly lead to significant muscle hypertrophy in the forearms, its value lies more in its ability to improve endurance, prevent injuries, and complement other strength training methods."

 

If you want Popeye forearms you may need a different approach like those grippers for example.

 

I started doing dead hangs for my shoulder health a while ago, that certainly taxes grip strength / endurance.

 

... Seems like a question right up @GoGoErky's alley. 

 

(PS) the exercise I linked above from Dennis is no joke.

[bortass]

1 hour ago, Laaandry said:

 

Then what would you use to train grip strength including thumbs? Or would you just use the grip trainer with a different grip

I recall when this topic came up over a decade ago that racquet balls and tennis balls being squeezed was brought up. May not be the greatest but they are easy to get and cheap.

[Mike_C]

Agreed, an overlooked factor in golf IMO.   

 

I was playing in a charity outing a couple of years ago, and they had a table set up to test your grip strength.  I thought mine was pretty good for my age, but when I tested it I was shockingly weak.   I have been trying to work at it when I'm at the gym and at home.   Basic wrist and bicep curls, as well as cable machine work on the upper body help.   Also, farmer's carry, and dead hangs trying to progress to doing pullups.  I also use on a regular basis the TheraBand flex bars, mostly from when I have had elbow issues, I think there is some benefit from these too for your hands. I have clearly noticed improvement, and even more muscle definition in my forearms....

[betarhoalphadelta]

13 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

It sounds like there is a strong correlation between distance and grip strength. Is it 'causal' or is there a different unlying mechanism (like general forearm strength) that is the real deal here? 

 

 

I can't vouch for the content, but the below video would strongly suggest that it's a governor, not a causal relationship. I.e. having stronger grip pressure doesn't MAKE you swing faster--but having a grip strength that's too weak for your speed potential limits you. 

 

Of specific note is that they talked about the players they trained and did an experiment. One group added grip strength training to what they were already doing, and a control group did not. There was no difference in their performance; i.e. the ones who added grip strength training did not gain distance relative to those who didn't.

 

HOWEVER, there's a giant enormous gargantual colossal caveat here...

 

The players in question were ALREADY doing physical/strength training. Training with heavy dumbbells/barbells will naturally strengthen your grip. So the players in question probably ALREADY had strong grips relative to the average middle-aged sedentary American golfer. Meaning their grip strength wasn't a limiter at the start of the experiment, so focused work on increasing their grip strength made no difference. 

 

So despite the fact that the experiment didn't show any difference, my guess is that for an average middle-aged sedentary American golfer, they might see an improvement b/c their grip strength is currently a limiter for THEM.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

31 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

A 5 gallon paint bucket  + a costco quantity of rice is a cheap way to get started: https://pursueperformance.com/rice-bucket-training/

 

I also picked up one of these things which are fun: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08372XV9M?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

 

I suspect with both of the above this is true:

 

"While rice bucket training may not directly lead to significant muscle hypertrophy in the forearms, its value lies more in its ability to improve endurance, prevent injuries, and complement other strength training methods."

 

If you want Popeye forearms you may need a different approach like those grippers for example.

 

I started doing dead hangs for my shoulder health a while ago, that certainly taxes grip strength / endurance.

 

... Seems like a question right up @GoGoErky's alley. 

 

(PS) the exercise I linked above from Dennis is no joke.

I was just getting ready to reply to him so thanks for the tag.

 

31 minutes ago, KD1 said:

While rice bucket training may not directly lead to significant muscle hypertrophy in the forearms, its value lies more in its ability to improve endurance, prevent injuries, and complement other strength training methods."

Rice bucket, bag or bowl is actually great grip add forearm training method. It’s used by baseball players to build forearm and grip strength. I was trying to find an Instagram video from one a baseball coach I follow about it.

 

The grippers for training are a great tool as well and like rice are a piece of the puzzle. They should be part of a more balanced program. A downside of the grippers is potential overuse and strain of the muscles, so one has to be careful there. Also the grippers may be bad for those who have medical conditions or injuries in the hands/arms.

 

As you point out dead hangs are another piece of the puzzle or pull-ups. Along with deadlifts and farmer carries.

 

A program that includes the above is going to be better than just the grippers.

 

For deadlifts it could also be rdl, stiff leg deadlifts with barbell or dumbbell. 
 

This is a pretty decent product that’s somewhat easy to carry around for grip training.

 

https://www.greatapegrips.com/

Edited June 12 by GoGoErky

[sundaypins]

Grip strength is a big factor for beginners but not for established, good sequenced, players with years in a game wielding a dynamic weight.   What's next, strength training for our feet.