Grip strength and distance.

[Nickb333]

On 6/11/2025 at 5:40 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

This is going to be more and more discussed as the years pass.  Experts from the university of Denver surmised my ability to hit it far when I was only 6-2 and 180 pounds without much gym strength, was my 100th percentile hand/grip strength.  Just having a good swing wasn’t going to cut it.  There had to be a physical reason I could swing 150 mph while looking like it was 115.  It’s so abstract  I’d put up videos on Instagram swinging 130 with 190+ balls speed at age 50 and people would call BS even though I put the camera on the flight scope as the animation and numbers came up after videoing the swing.  I’d get accused of being a lair and juicing the numbers somehow.

 

Here are the 49ers doing a test and you can see it’s a wide variation.  
 

I hear this seemingly every day……”I’m more fit, more flexible, stronger and have a better swing than my friend Eugene, but he out drives me by 20 yards.”

 

Maybe this is part…..or all of it.

 

When you see I did over 200 when I was 28 years old and I can still do 150/160 when my hands and wrists aren’t sore from being an old man, there might be merit to strengthening your hands might having more affect on club head speed than standard weight training.

 

I’d like to see more than just my small sample size of me versus the universe.  I’d bet Bosa smashes it even if his swing stinks.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKxz0sryNqY/?igsh=MW1sZWVpNG84cWZ4ZA==

Once again, I will thank you for sharing your insight and wisdom. 
 

I’ve had decent grip strength since high school. I credit pole vaulting. After hs I picked up racquetball on a serious level. While my right forearm looked like Popeye, the left, not so much. I always hated the weight room. Yadayada. 
 

At my highest open level racquetball I never griped the racquet tight. People commented that it looked like it was going to fall out of my hand. When I taught, I’d demonstrate hitting the ball at 90% while holding the racket with my two middle fingers only. Backhand and forehand. 
 

So what’s my point? I tried to utilize the same grip  technique playing golf. When I was young and strong it worked OK. My body was flexible enough to redirect my crappy backswing. Not anymore.

 

I’ll be 66 in a month with no serious health issues. I lost major distance over the last few years for no reason I could identify. Flexibility? Perhaps. Endurance? Maybe. 
 

Then today, for the first time ever, I took a strong grip. (Strong grip as in very firm grip not rolled way strong) The first few swings didn’t bomb any balls. I was using a wedge and 7i. But holy smokes. Dispersion seemed greatly reduced. 
 

Then I took some full swings with the wedge. 
Carry was right at 130. I haven’t done that in over 5 years. 
 

Sorry for the wall of blah blah. I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your candid insight. It’s been extremely beneficial to me. 

 

[Brokensticks]

This has been an interesting read. 

 

Might give it a go and buy some golf-related grip strength trainer as I know for sure hitting the gym isnt exactly going to happen and I just love being at club training for golf. 
 

Ive always felt weak at the top trying to stabilize the club

[iacas]

8 hours ago, joostin said:

Everything we do with the swing - sequencing, GRFs, etc. - manifests with forces applied to the grip.  Vector directions included.

 

Well that's not true. There are a LOT of joints and things between, say, the left knee and the grip that can absorb, redirect, etc. a force generated somewhere else.

 

</pedantry> 😄 

 

I take your main point, but as with GRF, it's going to be important to understand not only what forces we apply to the grip, but what forces the grip applies to us.

[PedronNiall]

11 hours ago, joostin said:

👍

 

Everything we do with the swing - sequencing, GRFs, etc. - manifests with forces applied to the grip.  Vector directions included.

 

Around impact it's mostly a big centripetal force pull.  (Btw Tutelman's deep analysis is awesome as always; my old centripetal thread wasn't worthy.)  The higher the speed, the higher that force.  Since the speed comes from forces that we're creating, we better be able to hold onto the club, or else the body probably won't let us create forces that high.  Better not not be holding a slick grip either...

 

Grip force analysis will probably become more widespread, like what SensorEdge is doing.  Force plates are great, but capturing force data at the place we actually hold the club is another thing.  Then you can correlate grip force patterns with GRF patterns, people's swing sequences, someone's ceiling, etc.

 

"Bird will die after each shot"

 

A few things:

 

- Max grip strength is one thing, but how quick you can get to it is another thing - grip impulse (force x time), fast activation and deactivation of grip force.

 

- Lead hand squeezes significantly more than trail hand.  Probably not a surprise, esp. seeing Couples and Singh letting go with their trail hands.

 

- One of the pro examples had their max dynamic grip force surpassing that of their max static grip.

 

- Max grip force is around P5 of the pro examples.  This is inline with what Tutelman found in the study he analyzed.  It's not max around impact, where the most centripetal force is happening (when the club/person can be pulling over 100 lb hanging onto the grip), like we might've thought.  That seems to indicate it's happening somewhere around wrist angle release, applying torque (force couple) with the hands, maybe around max hand speed and vertical GRF.  You pros can make those data correlations.

 

In a screenshot of a Sasho MacKenzie vid, the most grip squeeze, around P5, would be around here.  See net force purple arrow pointing downward at 171.2 N (37.5 lb).

 

 

The pros would not be squeezing tightest below, despite being at the max net force (mostly centripetal, arrow pointed upwards towards center of rotation) of 466 N (105 lb).

 

 

 

 

 

You guys are beasts 🦍

 

I think Sensor Edge has been around for a bit but redid their site and is perhaps more active in trialing and promoting their system now. Searched but seems something happened with their slot at TPI last year and I can't find any new studies mentioning their system. Will be interesting to see what all the numbers look like for the pros in terms of the exact force and application locations at address and throughout the swing. Have some theories on how some more consistent players apply it compared to wilder swingers but to this point there haven't been good enough sensors for it readily available in a golf grip. Think it will come down to fixing grip issues at address for correcting problematic results as trying to time up adjustments in the milliseconds they're off isn't too doable. 

 

Yeah, their findings with peak strength applied right around P5 as shared in the Tutelman analysis fits with what Monte mentioned in here earlier about it happening at the sharpest point in the deceleration curve and what he, iacas, and a few others have shared previously. Their maps also fit with the glove and partial grip sensor studies from other sources, though their design should be much easier to scale so instructors have access. Analysis of Champ and Potgeiter shows them holding more or increasing lag in comparison to others approaching p5, so I'd imagine players like that spike the highest, with some variation in the strength of the spike depending on exactly how someone makes their power. Will also be nice to see how often there are differences in max force during the spike even for players with the same CHS, i.e., who's most efficient, and if it's a worthwhile variable signaling the need to hunt down where inefficiencies lie.

[Pnwpingi210]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Well that's not true. There are a LOT of joints and things between, say, the left knee and the grip that can absorb, redirect, etc. a force generated somewhere else.

 

</pedantry> 😄 

 

I take your main point, but as with GRF, it's going to be important to understand not only what forces we apply to the grip, but what forces the grip applies to us.

Yup.  My core has/still does do a poor job of energy transfer for me relative to other areas

[petep52]

Did people not think grip strength would help swing speed?  Have you seen the forearms on a baseball slugger?  They’re huge. 

[Valtiel]

14 minutes ago, petep52 said:

Did people not think grip strength would help swing speed?  Have you seen the forearms on a baseball slugger?  They’re huge. 

It's surprisingly NOT well accepted or understood honestly, I mean in this very thread has been at least one person saying it doesn't matter. 

IMO it's because there have been decades of "take the hands out/use the big muscle" swing tips that get people *chronically* underutilizing their hands. And individual grip strength can vary quite a lot based on physical/genetic factors. 

[petep52]

2 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

It's surprisingly NOT well accepted or understood honestly, I mean in this very thread has been at least one person saying it doesn't matter. 

IMO it's because there have been decades of "take the hands out/use the big muscle" swing tips that get people *chronically* underutilizing their hands. And individual grip strength can vary quite a lot based on physical/genetic factors. 

Well people who say it doesn’t matter should go shake the hand of a hockey player.  Also a strong grip will deflect less at impact so clubhead speed will be better maintained for someone with stronger grips. 
 

Years ago I got de quervains in my right hand. My clubhead speed dropped 15 mph and the swings still felt good. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, petep52 said:

Also a strong grip will deflect less at impact so clubhead speed will be better maintained for someone with stronger grips.

 

Curious what you mean by that. Only about the bottom 4" of the shaft and the clubhead really matter at impact.

[petep52]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Curious what you mean by that. Only about the bottom 4" of the shaft and the clubhead really matter at impact.

The bottom 4 getting smacked back will make the club also want to move in your grip. It’ll move less in a stronger grip. 

[mshills]

15 minutes ago, petep52 said:

Well people who say it doesn’t matter should go shake the hand of a hockey player.  Also a strong grip will deflect less at impact so clubhead speed will be better maintained for someone with stronger grips. 

You aren’t kidding. One of my son's wrestling coaches can close a CoC #3, it is insane…he’s not someone who looks like a bodybuilder, but his hands are like clamps. I could not close one by standing on it.

 

Anyhow, back to golf. I am an adaptive player now and one of the best things I’ve done to increase my meager clubhead speed over the last two years is working on R hand grip strength. It matters!

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, petep52 said:

The bottom 4 getting smacked back will make the club also want to move in your grip. It’ll move less in a stronger grip. 

 

It doesn't matter what the clubhead speed is after the ball is gone, though.

[petep52]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It doesn't matter what the clubhead speed is after the ball is gone, though.

There’s a nonzero period of time the ball is in contact with the face. Stuff happens to the club, less to a club with a stiff tip, less to a golfer with a stiff tip and popeye forearms. 

[CoreyW1369]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It doesn't matter what the clubhead speed is after the ball is gone, though.

 

This 👆

[petep52]

9 minutes ago, mshills said:

You aren’t kidding. One of my son's wrestling coaches can close a CoC #3, it is insane…he’s not someone who looks like a bodybuilder, but his hands are like clamps. I could not close one by standing on it.

 

Anyhow, back to golf. I am an adaptive player now and one of the best things I’ve done to increase my meager clubhead speed over the last two years is working on R hand grip strength. It matters!

I thought I was going to lose my hand to one of those dudes. And hockey players are also notoriously awesome golfers. 

[CoreyW1369]

3 minutes ago, petep52 said:

There’s a nonzero period of time the ball is in contact with the face. Stuff happens to the club, less to a club with a stiff tip, less to a golfer with a stiff tip and popeye forearms. 

There’s also a measurable time for the impulse from the collision to travel up the shaft.

Edited June 18 by CoreyW1369

[petep52]

Just now, CoreyW1369 said:

There’s also a measurable time for the impulse to travel up the shaft.

maybe we’re saying the same thing different ways. Anyway I’m not a golf club engineer, I only say what I think, certainly not what I know. 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, petep52 said:

There’s a nonzero period of time the ball is in contact with the face. Stuff happens to the club, less to a club with a stiff tip, less to a golfer with a stiff tip and popeye forearms. 

 

That's what I meant when I said the clubhead and roughly the bottom 4" of the shaft are all that matter. Your grip literally has nothing to do with it. The ball is gone by the time the impulse gets to your hands… let alone back down to the clubhead.

 

The only way your grip affects things is if you're swinging through the rough or something before you hit the ball.

 

2 minutes ago, petep52 said:

maybe we’re saying the same thing different ways. Anyway I’m not a golf club engineer, I only say what I think, certainly not what I know. 

 

He's saying what I'm saying.

Edited June 18 by iacas

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

It's surprisingly NOT well accepted or understood honestly, I mean in this very thread has been at least one person saying it doesn't matter. 

IMO it's because there have been decades of "take the hands out/use the big muscle" swing tips that get people *chronically* underutilizing their hands. And individual grip strength can vary quite a lot based on physical/genetic factors. 

Don't forget that stupid baby bird...

[Valtiel]

48 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Don't forget that stupid baby bird...

I swear some of those old legends did more actual damage to golfers with these pithy phrases than they grew the game. 😂

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Valtiel said:

I swear some of those old legends did more actual damage to golfers with these pithy phrases than they grew the game. 😂

I believe nothing, unless it's backed by high quality measurements. I have been burned far too many times by GD tips or old pro "this is what I do" BS. Never again.

[Nickb333]

Yeah, I’m going to double down here. As a life long protector of the baby birds, a light grip is bs. 
 

I’ve recaptured 5-7 years of distance and I’m hitting the ball straighter than I could have ever imagined. This happened instantly by simply taking a firm grip. No swing changes.  Never ever have I done this in my life. Dear God why didn’t I know about this is my 20’s? 
 

I played only 9 today, but I flew 3 greens and hit 4. I’m usually short or right on 5 or 6. 
 

Mind boggling and super encouraging.

Edited June 18 by Nickb333

[Johnny Biarritz]

I suspect that with stronger grip strength, you can grip the club harder without adding tension in the arms. That should let the club swing more freely and result in more distance. 

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I swear some of those old legends did more actual damage to golfers with these pithy phrases than they grew the game. 😂

 

TBF Forged has come on the forums more than once explaining that Sam wasn't being literal with that one and had no intention of people running with that little snippet out of context. This was one of the more recent ones. 

 

 

 

Just like Monte sharing directly from Arnold's mouth that "Swing your swing" means swing the one you have today and worry about fixes later, not keep swinging however feels right with no care for improving the technique or getting better. Certainly bad stuff out there from some of the greats, but not all the attributions are quite right. 

[petep52]

Some of these old golf axioms are the pits. So much of golf is someone talking to talk, and then they grab a club don’t realize they’re doing the opposite, but since they’re so supremely talented, it works. 
 

also, these guys are the most competitive people on earth. Do you think they’re just out here given away their secrets. 
 

 

[J.Bex]

On 6/17/2025 at 7:37 AM, iacas said:

Well that's not true. There are a LOT of joints and things between, say, the left knee and the grip that can absorb, redirect, etc. a force generated somewhere else.

 

</pedantry> 😄

 

Sorry late reply.. Fair point 😉.  I was just taking a golf club point of view on what moves it, as you know.

 

On 6/17/2025 at 7:37 AM, iacas said:

I take your main point, but as with GRF, it's going to be important to understand not only what forces we apply to the grip, but what forces the grip applies to us.

 

For sure, definitely a feedback loop with the club and person.  It would be interesting to see grip pressure maps for a whole set of clubs where you have clubs of all different masses, torques, MOIs.  Or even shaft/equipment changes affecting an individual's grip forces and tendencies, as people react differently to these things.

[Nickb333]

While I’m incredibly new to the concept of gripping the club firmly I did notice one thing in particular. The club seemed to stay on plane. I never felt the need to redirect anything regardless of how hard I swung. 
 

Again. I’m intrigued and encouraged. Hoping to report amazing results over the next few weeks. 

[bladehunter]

On 6/17/2025 at 11:27 PM, Valtiel said:

I swear some of those old legends did more actual damage to golfers with these pithy phrases than they grew the game. 😂

Man I got lucky with my old timer mentor.  .  One of the first things he said to me when we met on course “ hey. You’re wearing those cords out.  Don’t let anybody tell you to ease up on that grip. Clamp her down. Good strong players wear grips out , they don’t dry rot on the club “.    But I’ve heard that tube of toothpaste , bird in hand nonsense way more often.  It just makes no sense. 
 

my tip to juniors reading.  Go work in the hayfields with square bales.  🤣.  Be a mechanic.  Or on the business end of a hoe 4/5 hours a day.  Forearms bigger than biceps will come quickly because grip strength is of paramount importance.  I suppose there’s gym activities too that help.  But it happened to me just by survival techniques daily.  

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 6/17/2025 at 10:32 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

I believe nothing, unless it's backed by high quality measurements.

Needs to be pinned to the top of this forum section.

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Needs to be pinned to the top of this forum section.

You know it's pretty much burned into my soul. I worked aerospace defense. We designed and built laser weapon systems. As such, we spent alot of time testing the systems as part of integration and performance verification.

 

The tests were frequently exciting. However, our most important job post test completion was securing the data and imagery. Without such data, it was as if we had not done the test at all. You couldn't prove how well or poorly the system performed. We had to have verifiable proof of what happened. Otherwise we were just wasting time and money.