Oakmont USGA type layouts are killing golf...

[2over]

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13 by 2over

[Rbsiedsc]

8 minutes ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

Oakmont is part of the challenge though. Outside of the us open some stated their setup is way more modest. The us open is the toughest test in the country. They are gonna make it play that way. 

[otto6457]

I don't see how this U.S. Open is killing golf.  Maybe if you're playing at Oakmont today, you're going to kill a few pencils writing down all those doubles, triples, and quads you are going to make.  But golf will be just fine.

 

You do realize you can just turn off the coverage and go play a round at your Arnold Palmer course and enjoy the day?

[Dave230]

Nah, there is a place for both styles of golf. You also have to make it harder to test the pros when you don’t get much wind in the area. St Andrews is made for an average of 20mph winds, majority of time into your face on the back 9. With no wind it’s quite easy for pros. US Open’s identity is hard golf courses. If you want to see a winner at -20 then watch 50% of PGA Tour tournaments. Let the people who want to see a survival test have one week of the year, please. 

[tatertot]

28 minutes ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

You're using a 10-year-old article to prove certain courses are "killing golf" ... and ten years later, golf has never been more popular.

 

Do you see the problem here>

[J13]

33 minutes ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

 

Having been to Oakmont I can assure you the membership wants it to play as hard as possible.  

[ChrisL52188]

The issue is the rota itself but I understand that there's many logistics involved and financial concerns too.

 

 

[596]

Is it killing golf? No

 

Are greens speeds way too fast? Yes

 

With speeds of 12 or more, it turns into putt putt golf without windmills.  When you can hit an approach to 3 feet and it ends up 45 feet from the hole, off the green, it's stupid.  4 putting from 20 feet for pro tour guys tells me it's the green speed/slope not the player.   

 

[Birdman62]

13 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

If you want to see a winner at -20 then watch 50% of PGA Tour tournaments. Let the people who want to see a survival test have one week of the year, please. 

 

Straw man, if you actually read the 1st post.

 

How do you make it difficult, but fair, is the question that was raised. Greater minds than us (= top architects) have cogitated about that for many decades, to mixed results.

 

One thing Augusta has that most US Open layouts don't is water, something I noticed years ago as a kid watching my first majors. Is Pebble the only layout on the new rota which has a lot of water? And even there the H2O in question is in play only if you hit it wayyy offline. Yes I am well aware of how "gimmicky" water hazards can be in the wrong designer's hands, and that Oakmont has these "dry ditches" marked off as hazards.

[RSinSG]

I enjoy watching this kind of test once a year, but I sure wouldn’t want it every week. Kinda like the Waste Management Open. 

[vandyfan]

Like it or not, the US Open has an identity. It is HARD. I haven't watched a shot yet because I don't enjoy watching players hack out of rough. I will probably watch Sunday back 9. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, Rbsiedsc said:

Oakmont is part of the challenge though. Outside of the us open some stated their setup is way more modest. The us open is the toughest test in the country. They are gonna make it play that way. 

Agreed, with the possible exception of the green speeds, but it's Oakmont.  That's how the Members want it, and it's their dirt.

 

FWIW, the fastest I've ever played on were claimed to be 11.5-12, IIRC.  I liked it, but that was awhile ago.  Provided I can calibrate myself to the speeds, I actually like putting at that kind of pace.  I don't feel like I have to haul back and whack the ball on longer putts.  Trying to stop chips, or any other shot w/o all of the spin, is another matter.

 

[runningblind11]

I haven't disagreed with a post more whole heartedly in a while, well done.

Edited June 13 by runningblind11

[mosesgolf]

I think the setup is fine.  It's a throwback to brutal US Opens of the past where hitting a fairway is a huge premium.  Pinehurst was just meh.  Half the time no penalty for missing a fairway.

[jdl]

[Ironman_32]

I'd argue maybe from a length perspective, because you get hacks who "Want to play what the pros play". I'd also argue maybe Augusta hurts golf more because that's one of the few tournament people watch a year and some courses try way to hard to not have brown patches. 

 

I'd also add, I feel the membership at Oakmont wants it extremely hard just so they can go another 10 years telling everyone the the USGA "had to make the course easier for the pros"

[ChrisL52188]

I know this is just for fun but imagine how hard Pikewood National would be under US Open conditions? 

 

That would be as hard as it gets.

Edited June 13 by ChrisL52188

[tatertot]

43 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

Like it or not, the US Open has an identity. It is HARD. I haven't watched a shot yet because I don't enjoy watching players hack out of rough. I will probably watch Sunday back 9. 

And it's hard mentally ... can you be patient, take advantage of limited opportunities, take your medicine instead of going for the hero shot ... PGA pros aren't used to any of this. That's why the US Open is the toughest tournament in the world.

[Frank Newport]

1 hour ago, J13 said:

 

Having been to Oakmont I can assure you the membership wants it to play as hard as possible.  

Do they want it to play this difficult when they're playing it? Because if they don't and if the course doesn't remotely resemble what it plays like the other 11+ months out of the year then they're  completely disingenuous.

 

To me, this doesn't look or feel like a US Open. It looks like a really tough British Open with mild weather.

 

And for those that argue "this is the US Open it's supposed to be difficult". You can make a course difficult without completely destroying the risk/reward aspect of golf. The US Open forces golfers to play way too conservative and brings luck into play way too often. Good shots shouldn't get penalized because of the course layout. 

[StoutKing]

3 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

Do they want it to play this difficult when they're playing it? Because if they don't and if the course doesn't remotely resemble what it plays like the other 11+ months out of the year then they're  completely disingenuous.

 

To me, this doesn't look or feel like a US Open. It looks like a really tough British Open with mild weather.

 

And for those that argue "this is the US Open it's supposed to be difficult". You can make a course difficult without completely destroying the risk/reward aspect of golf. The US Open forces golfers to play way too conservative and brings luck into play way too often. Good shots shouldn't get penalized because of the course layout. 

So you're saying Robert Trent Jones > Gil Hanse?

[kiawah]

I would rather see more courses have 14 stimp greens than 7 or 8 stimp. That kind of golf is a ton of fun. Also, it's the US Open, if you wanted a weekend warrior-friendly setup, you came to the wrong place

[Choclab]

Can the USGA take it too far, of course.  And they have many times.  But I'm glad to see a tournament where there's an actual penalty for missing the fairway.  Just because the Tour thinks Bomb and Gouge will increase fan revenues doesn't mean that's the way to set up a Championship.

[Frank Newport]

2 minutes ago, Choclab said:

Can the USGA take it too far, of course.  And they have many times.  But I'm glad to see a tournament where there's an actual penalty for missing the fairway.  Just because the Tour thinks Bomb and Gouge will increase fan revenues doesn't mean that's the way to set up a Championship.

You like watching guys punch out with sand wedges all day? 

 

[cassel191919]

2 hours ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

Good lord this is a special kind of stupid lol.

[cassel191919]

1 minute ago, Frank Newport said:

You like watching guys punch out with sand wedges all day? 

 

For 1 week a year yes, hit the fing fairway.

[farmer]

7 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

Do they want it to play this difficult when they're playing it? Because if they don't and if the course doesn't remotely resemble what it plays like the other 11+ months out of the year then they're  completely disingenuous.

 

To me, this doesn't look or feel like a US Open. It looks like a really tough British Open with mild weather.

 

And for those that argue "this is the US Open it's supposed to be difficult". You can make a course difficult without completely destroying the risk/reward aspect of golf. The US Open forces golfers to play way too conservative and brings luck into play way too often. Good shots shouldn't get penalized because of the course layout. 

According to Richard (Forged for Ever), who has played Oakmont many times, what you see is pretty much standard.  The rough may not be as severe, but the greens are what the members see every day.  Not a course to go have a relaxing round while playing casually.  I would rather have a root canal than have Oakmont as my home course, but they have carefully avoided inviting me to join.

[ChrisL52188]

9 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

So you're saying Robert Trent Jones > Gil Hanse?

Gil Hanse by far.

 

Although Robert Sr had some wonderful courses such as Spyglass.

Edited June 13 by ChrisL52188

[Frank Newport]

2 minutes ago, farmer said:

According to Richard (Forged for Ever), who has played Oakmont many times, what you see is pretty much standard.  The rough may not be as severe, but the greens are what the members see every day.  Not a course to go have a relaxing round while playing casually.  I would rather have a root canal than have Oakmont as my home course, but they have carefully avoided inviting me to join.

There's zero percent that's true. The average round would be 6+ hours.

 

[Pnwpingi210]

11 minutes ago, farmer said:

According to Richard (Forged for Ever), who has played Oakmont many times, what you see is pretty much standard.  The rough may not be as severe, but the greens are what the members see every day.  Not a course to go have a relaxing round while playing casually.  I would rather have a root canal than have Oakmont as my home course, but they have carefully avoided inviting me to join.

Oakmont members talking about how hard their course is daily

 

 

[Choclab]

10 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

You like watching guys punch out with sand wedges all day? 

 

I said I like to see shots into the rough penalized.  That doesn't necessarily mean an automatic hack-out. 

 

Which is how US Opens were when I started playing in the early 90s -- a fairway miss was an automatic sand wedge back to the fairway.  I agree that's too boring and takes all risk/reward out of it.

 

But there shouldn't be zero penalty like most weeks on the Tour, either.  Driving it straight should be greatly rewarded.