Oakmont USGA type layouts are killing golf...

[Pnwpingi210]

2 hours ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

 

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)? 

 

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

 

 

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

There's zero percent that's true. The average round would be 6+ hours.

 

Fun fact, they don’t actually play golf at Oakmont.  They just sit around, talk about how hard it is and how they can make it harder.

[Pnwpingi210]

I’d say Bryson beard is a risk

[GwrxMod]

If you noticed your posts are missing, there's a reason for it. Keep it civil and cease the squabbling immediately... or find another topic to post in.

 

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[Pepperturbo]

I like the challenging layout of Oakmont.  It's a fair course, and only killing golf for those golfers that want or need easier layouts to feel good about their games.  Learn how to hit the ball where you want it to go.  Given the long history at Oakmont, I am confident when saying, the membership likes the course difficult.

 

As the USGA adv says, conditions are not set to embarrass players, but expose the best players, which seems to be working.

 

One thing is apparent at Oakmont, too many tour players can't hit a straight ball, and can't hit fairways using a long iron...makes me wonder.  If the only way to support "these guys are good" moniker is to set up the course to improve on their weaknesses, no rough, and help their strengths, speed up flatter fairways, so the ball stays in the fairway, then maybe they should look for a more fitting moniker.  

 

Facing difficult conditions is all about stepping up to the challenge.  I am enjoying the US Open, especially seeing those that can't hit the ball relatively straight, pressing to overcome one mistake with another mistake.  Ya gotta love how USGA golf separates the field.

Edited June 13 by Pepperturbo

[Frank Newport]

8 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I like the challenging layout of Oakmont.  It's a fair course, and only killing golf for those golfers that want or need easier layouts to feel good about their games.  Learn how to hit the ball where you want it to go.  Given the long history at Oakmont, I am confident when saying, the membership likes the course difficult.

 

As the USGA adv says, conditions are not set to embarrass players, but expose the best players, which seems to be working.

 

One thing is apparent at Oakmont, too many tour players can't hit a straight ball, and can't hit fairways using a long iron...makes me wonder.  If the only way to support "these guys are good" moniker is to set up the course to improve on their weaknesses, no rough, and help their strengths, speed up flatter fairways, so the ball stays in the fairway, then maybe they should look for a more fitting moniker.  

 

Facing difficult conditions is all about stepping up to the challenge.  I am enjoying the US Open, especially seeing those that can't hit the ball relatively straight, pressing to overcome one mistake with another mistake.  Ya gotta love how USGA golf separates the field.

 

Every time I read one of your posts it comes off as parody. Is this a parody account? I honestly can't tell.

 

Do you seriously think that all these guys have to do is hit it straight to succeed on this course? 

 

Hitting an iron off the tee would leave them with another long iron into a rock hard green rolling 15.

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

 

Every time I read one of your posts it comes off as parody. Is this a parody account? I honestly can't tell.

 

Do you seriously think that all these guys have to do is hit it straight to succeed on this course? 

 

Hitting an iron off the tee would leave them with another long iron into a rock hard green rolling 15.

It helps to read them as if they are J Peterman for golf

 

 

Edited June 13 by Pnwpingi210

[cassel191919]

1 minute ago, Frank Newport said:

 

Every time I read one of your posts it comes off as parody. Is this a parody account? I honestly can't tell.

 

Do you seriously think that all these guys have to do is hit it straight to succeed on this course? 

 

Hitting an iron off the tee would leave them with another long iron into a rock hard green rolling 15.

Lol they hit driving irons almost 300 yards if they don't screw up the layup and hit it in the rough. No long irons except into the 600 plus par 5's.

[mosesgolf]

280 in the fairway or 350 in the rough seems to be a no brainer at Oakmont.  Bomb and gouge strategy no bueno here.

[Pepperturbo]

16 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

 

Every time I read one of your posts it comes off as parody. Is this a parody account? I honestly can't tell.

 

Do you seriously think that all these guys have to do is hit it straight to succeed on this course? 

 

Hitting an iron off the tee would leave them with another long iron into a rock hard green rolling 15.

You're welcome to disagree.  I guess it says something if you can't tell. 

 

Those greens were NOT rolling at 15, but they are large enough to land short, and the ball can run out if need be.  I grew up with a PGA Tour golfer, so no to your 2nd question.  But hitting the ball straight should be fundamental, but I am not going to argue. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Edited June 13 by Pepperturbo

[NevinW]

This is so silly.

[hammergolf]

Totally disagree. Oakmont is a fair, tough, test of golf. It’s right there in front of you. Hit a bad shot and you get punished, simple as that. If you talk with ANY member at Oakmont they will all tell you they want it to be a tough challenge. Now, the usga and their set ups sometimes can get out of hand but there’s nothing wrong with a tough golf course.

[hammergolf]

2 hours ago, Frank Newport said:

You like watching guys punch out with sand wedges all day? 

 

Sam Burns shot 65 today so obviously the course is playable if you control your ball. Complaining about rough this week or pot bunkers at The Open Championship is questionable at best. The simple answer is don’t hit it there. 

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, hammergolf said:

Sam Burns shot 65 today so obviously the course is playable if you control your ball. Complaining about rough this week or pot bunkers at The Open Championship is questionable at best. The simple answer is don’t hit it there. 

I have to agree.  
 

My only nit is when they have sloped or tiered greens so fast the almost no shot has a chance of holding and they all funnel to the same collection points to the front and back.

[jimecherry]

4 hours ago, 2over said:

 

 

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot!

 

I am ;}

[Frank Newport]

4 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Sam Burns shot 65 today so obviously the course is playable if you control your ball. Complaining about rough this week or pot bunkers at The Open Championship is questionable at best. The simple answer is don’t hit it there. 

6 guys are under par for the tournament and only for golfers have finished their 2nd round under par today. The rest stink at golf.

[hammergolf]

1 minute ago, Frank Newport said:

6 guys are under par for the tournament and only for golfers have finished their 2nd round under par today. The rest stink at golf.

Or, maybe those 6 guys are the best this week at controlling their ball……

[Frank Newport]

Just now, hammergolf said:

Or, maybe those 6 guys are the best this week at controlling their ball……

Ok. But statistically speaking there's no way only 6 guys are playing good golf. I'll give you +2, that makes it 20 guys. A fair test wouldn't lead to only 20 of the best golfers in the world shooting +2 or better over 36 holes. Opinions don't matter scores do and the scores are saying that US Open layouts aren't a fair test of golf.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the OP. I think greens should be fast and firm, but I think it should be possible to advance the ball from the rough when they are this fast and firm. They can't even hold the greens from the first cut today. That's a pretty good penalty.

[fwilliam]

In an interview yesterday, Scottie Sheffler  stated that Oakmont was not a strategic test, rather he had to calculate what club would hit each fairway. If that was accomplished, then shots into the greens were relatively straightforward. Personally, I prefer a course like TPC Sawgrass , requiring superb shotmaking and more strategy, without linoleum greens,  over Oakmont.

Edited June 13 by fwilliam

[hammergolf]

1 minute ago, Frank Newport said:

Ok. But statistically speaking there's no way only 6 guys are playing good golf. I'll give you +2, that makes it 20 guys. A fair test wouldn't lead to only 20 of the best golfers in the world shooting +2 or better over 36 holes. Opinions don't matter scores do and the scores are saying that US Open layouts aren't a fair test of golf.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the OP. I think greens should be fast and firm, but I think it should be possible to advance the ball from the rough when they are this fast and firm. They can't even hold the greens from the first cut today. That's a pretty good penalty.

The layout at Oakmont is a completely fair test. Hit it in the fwys and you get a huge advantage over those who miss it. Control the distance and direction of your iron shots and you get a huge advantage over those players who don’t. Control the pace and line of your putts and you get a huge advantage over those who hit it in the wrong spots. What is unfair about that? Miss the fwy, pay the price. Miss a green, pay the price. Hit a bad putt, pay the price. That’s about as fair as it gets!
Why does it matter if players are under par or not? I assure you, the player who shoots the lowest score will win the trophy. I don’t see the issue with a golfer being punished for an errant shot. The player who hits the most fwys, greens, and putts well SHOULD have a distinct advantage over a guy who hits it all over the course. That’s not unfair, that’s identifying the best player in the field. Whether that player shoots 10 over or 10 under is irrelevant…..

 

[hammergolf]

4 minutes ago, fwilliam said:

In an interview yesterday, Scottie Sheffler  stated that Oakmont was not a strategic test, rather he had to calculate what club would hit each fairway. If that was accomplished, then shots into the greens were relatively straightforward. Personally, I prefer a course like TPC Sawgrass , requiring superb shotmaking and more strategy, without linoleum greens,  over Oakmont.

So hitting fwys and greens at Sawgrass require superb shotmaking, but doing the same at Oakmont gives a player an “unfair” advantage? Makes perfect sense…. Smh

[Rory4Pres]

The US Open is wayyy more entertaining than the PGA championship.  Just saying...  Yeah, I love that it's hard as Sh*t.  I would sign up to play it in a hardbeat, get my butt kicked and love every second of it.

[Frank Newport]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

The layout at Oakmont is a completely fair test. Hit it in the fwys and you get a huge advantage over those who miss it. Control the distance and direction of your iron shots and you get a huge advantage over those players who don’t. Control the pace and line of your putts and you get a huge advantage over those who hit it in the wrong spots. What is unfair about that? Miss the fwy, pay the price. Miss a green, pay the price. Hit a bad putt, pay the price. That’s about as fair as it gets!
Why does it matter if players are under par or not? I assure you, the player who shoots the lowest score will win the trophy. I don’t see the issue with a golfer being punished for an errant shot. The player who hits the most fwys, greens, and putts well SHOULD have a distinct advantage over a guy who hits it all over the course. That’s not unfair, that’s identifying the best player in the field. Whether that player shoots 10 over or 10 under is irrelevant…..

 

If you miss a fairway by a few feet you have to hack it out just as if you missed it by 50 feet. If you hit a green and it rolls one foot into the rough you have to hack it the same as if you missed the green by 20 yards. Because of the speed and topography of the greens good shots are getting horrible bounces and luck is coming into play too much.

[hammergolf]

3 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

If you miss a fairway by a few feet you have to hack it out just as if you missed it by 50 feet. If you hit a green and it rolls one foot into the rough you have to hack it the same as if you missed the green by 20 yards. Because of the speed and topography of the greens good shots are getting horrible bounces and luck is coming into play too much.

Hit in the middle of fwy. Hit it in the correct spot on the green. If they are good shots they end up in the right spot. Has NOTHING to do with luck. 

[italianstallion]

2 hours ago, Frank Newport said:

There's zero percent that's true. The average round would be 6+ hours.

 

 

Play well, play fast. Play poorly, play faster. That's their motto and yes it is enforced. Rounds should not exceed 4 hours, however you want to get there you get there. Teeing off on 11 I accidentally hit my tee shot down 10 and had to wait as the group on 10 tee hit their tee shots. When it was finally clear and my turn to play, guess where my playing partners were? Putting out on the green. I literally hit towards them from 135 yards out while they were finishing up. Whatever it takes the group gets it done. That includes situations like the one I mentioned as well as continuous putting and extreme forms of ready golf. While the rough isn't as high as for the U.S. Open, the green speeds certainly are and if they aren't then they're probably higher. There's a bunch of videos with the super out there on Youtube on why that is, but basically their poa is conditioned to thrive being cut and rolled to those speeds.

 

 

[hammergolf]

9 minutes ago, Rory4Pres said:

The US Open is wayyy more entertaining than the PGA championship.  Just saying...  Yeah, I love that it's hard as Sh*t.  I would sign up to play it in a hardbeat, get my butt kicked and love every second of it.

Yep! By far the US Open and The Open are my favorite tournaments to watch. The weekly bomb and gouge are what’s boring to me. 

[Frank Newport]

7 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

So hitting fwys and greens at Sawgrass require superb shotmaking, but doing the same at Oakmont gives a player an “unfair” advantage? Makes perfect sense…. Smh

The announcers said it this morning. They didn't like the way the rough played because the best and most creative players in the world don't have an opportunity to show off their skills once the ball enters the rough. They were talking about Scheffler and his short game and how everyone has to play the same hack-it-out shot out of the rough.

[Pepperturbo]

Professional or amateur, luck is part of the game.  It's talked about all the time.  Some enjoy luck more than others.

[hammergolf]

1 minute ago, Frank Newport said:

The announcers said it this morning. They didn't like the way the rough played because the best and most creative players in the world don't have an opportunity to show off their skills once the ball enters the rough. They were talking about Scheffler and his short game and how everyone has to play the same hack-it-out shot out of the rough.

Should have used their “skill” to hit the fwy….. 

[hammergolf]

Just checked the stats, there were 327 birdies, 6 eagles, and 1 double eagle made yesterday. Hardly seems like an “unfair” golf course.

 

https://www.todays-golfer.com/news-and-events/majors/us-open/oakmont-stats-round-one/