Oakmont USGA type layouts are killing golf...

Frank Newport · June 13

4 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

Play well, play fast. Play poorly, play faster. That's their motto and yes it is enforced. Rounds should not exceed 4 hours, however you want to get there you get there. Teeing off on 11 I accidentally hit my tee shot down 10 and had to wait as the group on 10 tee hit their tee shots. When it was finally clear and my turn to play, guess where my playing partners were? Putting out on the green. I literally hit towards them from 135 yards out while they were finishing up. Whatever it takes the group gets it done. That includes situations like the one I mentioned as well as continuous putting and extreme forms of ready golf. While the rough isn't as high as for the U.S. Open, the green speeds certainly are and if they aren't then they're probably higher. There's a bunch of videos with the super out there on Youtube on why that is, but basically their poa is conditioned to thrive being cut and rolled to those speeds.

You think it's possible the greens are actually slower today than normal?

Frank Newport · June 13

5 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Just checked the stats, there were 327 birdies, 6 eagles, and 1 double eagle made yesterday. Hardly seems like an “unfair” golf course.

https://www.todays-golfer.com/news-and-events/majors/us-open/oakmont-stats-round-one/

That's 2.14 birdies per golfer. Not bad.

But you forgot to mention the 5.8 bogeys or worse each golfer averaged. That's 270% more bogeys or worse than birdies or better.

Sweet, we're watching a bogey barrage.

bladehunter · June 13

The game could stand to shrink a hair.

I love it when it’s tough. So many give up before we start. Fast greens are easier to putt. IF you have a solid stroke. This is the us open. It’s not supposed to be won by those who can’t control the ball

buckI · June 13

39 minutes ago, fwilliam said:

In an interview yesterday, Scottie Sheffler stated that Oakmont was not a strategic test, rather he had to calculate what club would hit each fairway. If that was accomplished, then shots into the greens were relatively straightforward. Personally, I prefer a course like TPC Sawgrass , requiring superb shotmaking and more strategy, without linoleum greens, over Oakmont.

I like Scottie a lot but his statement that it is not strategic but he has to figure which club to hit the fairway to me is a bit contradictory. That is part of the strategy. 17 for example could be a layup with iron then a more full shot in but these guys don’t play that kind of golf nowadays. That is more Tigeresque strategy like he used at Hoylake.

Frank Newport · June 13

25 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

Play well, play fast. Play poorly, play faster. That's their motto and yes it is enforced. Rounds should not exceed 4 hours, however you want to get there you get there. Teeing off on 11 I accidentally hit my tee shot down 10 and had to wait as the group on 10 tee hit their tee shots. When it was finally clear and my turn to play, guess where my playing partners were? Putting out on the green. I literally hit towards them from 135 yards out while they were finishing up. Whatever it takes the group gets it done. That includes situations like the one I mentioned as well as continuous putting and extreme forms of ready golf. While the rough isn't as high as for the U.S. Open, the green speeds certainly are and if they aren't then they're probably higher. There's a bunch of videos with the super out there on Youtube on why that is, but basically their poa is conditioned to thrive being cut and rolled to those speeds.

The understatement of the century.

The USGA employed 330 spotters to locate balls this week and you're talking like you played the same course. I'm dying laughing over here.

hammergolf · June 13

19 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

That's 2.14 birdies per golfer. Not bad.

But you forgot to mention the 5.8 bogeys or worse each golfer averaged. That's 270% more bogeys or worse than birdies or better.

Sweet, we're watching a bogey barrage.

20 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

That's 2.14 birdies per golfer. Not bad.

But you forgot to mention the 5.8 bogeys or worse each golfer averaged. That's 270% more bogeys or worse than birdies or better.

Sweet, we're watching a bogey barrage.

So looks like the guys who are playing the best are making fewer bogeys. What a novel approach to scoring. I think repeats of the The Greater Hartford Open can be found on YouTube if you just want to see birdies.

SRM · June 13

27 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

You think it's possible the greens are actually slower today than normal?

Yes, I have a three cousins who are local club pros in the Pittsburgh area and have caddied for them in events at Oakmont. This is exactly how the course plays every day with the exception of the rough which is typically a little less thick but we have had a terrible spring with rain so the rough is borderline unplayable everywhere around Pittsburgh right now. I can't say the greens are faster than this but they are always this fast. Like 15-16 on the stimp every time I have been there. This isnt a course that is tricked up for the open, this is just how Oakmont plays every day. Everyone I've talked to who has played there says it is an experience and you need to do it once but none of them would want to be a member there because it is not "fun" to play. The Oakmont caddies all say they slow the greens down for the pros.

buckI · June 13

I think it was Aaron Obelhoser on maybe Wednesday talking about all the data available today and he thought honestly it could be irrelevant for the US Open. His point was most guys bomb driver and stats show for the year that is the right strategy but with the rough, etc at Oakmont that might be the worse plays.

Thought it was an interesting take but may prove to be accurate.

italianstallion · June 13

10 minutes ago, SRM said:

Yes, I have a three cousins who are local club pros in the Pittsburgh area and have caddied for them in events at Oakmont. This is exactly how the course plays every day with the exception of the rough which is typically a little less thick but we have had a terrible spring with rain so the rough is borderline unplayable everywhere around Pittsburgh right now. I can't say the greens are faster than this but they are always this fast. Like 15-16 on the stimp every time I have been there. This isnt a course that is tricked up for the open, this is just how Oakmont plays every day. Everyone I've talked to who has played there says it is an experience and you need to do it once but none of them would want to be a member there because it is not "fun" to play. The Oakmont caddies all say they slow the greens down for the pros.

I mean given the chance I'd gladly be a member there! But I get some sadistic sort of enjoyment out of the challenge. The greens are very very fast but, unlike what Scottie said about not being strategic, as long as you're thinking about what the right place to be is every hole and hole location can be managed. That requires the player to think outside the usual "short below the hole is safe" box. At Oakmont you need to look left, right, and long as well as short to find the right spots. First hole for example: short right is dead, short is dead, short left dead, left and right you're conscious but being closely monitored, but long you're in great shape and can run a marathon. It's easier said than done though, because many of the holes bait you in to hitting shots where if you don't hit your spot you're on the struggle bus.

Thinking about the "its only hard because of the rough" crowd, I actually might wager if they shaved all of Oakmont down to fairway height/speed/firmness Oakmont would play just as hard, because now the ball is just rolling all sorts of places away from the holes.

italianstallion · June 13

39 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

The understatement of the century.

The USGA employed 330 spotters to locate balls this week and you're talking like you played the same course. I'm dying laughing over here.

I didn’t say I played the same course. On yardage alone I didn’t play the same course. I was responding to your comment on not believing the green speeds, because in that regard they consistently run them at US Open speed or faster and the rounds are nowhere near 6 hours.

stormbringer · June 13

The course is what the USGA loves for it's championship. If anything, I'm sure they wish the greens were firmer/faster. Is it a fair test, not really, as mentioned above too much luck. Since when has a US Open been fair? It certainly does require precision and perhaps more good luck than normal for the guy who gets the trophy. It's nice to see such a hard test a couple of times a year. The leaderboard is a bit disappointing at the midway point but that will likely change by Sunday.

Edited June 13 by stormbringer

dcfas · June 13

6 hours ago, 2over said:

A wise article from a decade ago in GolfWRX nails it... https://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play. Also the ridiculous rough. Bobby Jones was right that long rough is just covering poor design. Gouge out rough just takes the skill out of the game entirely. A well designed golf course like St. Andrews Old Course allows the bogie golfer to make their bogies or better and the scratch golfer to be challenged. That even in the Open Championship green speed is 10 at most on the Stimp is a big reason. "9 is fine" should be a mantra for making the game fun again. The PGA Tour in the 50's and '60s rarely saw greens faster than 9. Yippy putting has driven many good players from the game. And it's not them. It's the stupid fast greens.

Mow the course get rid of the rough (as Augusta for decades had no rough at all and even today is very modest in length). And keep green speeds at 9 and no more than 10 and the game is fun to watch--and more importantly to play!

I'm not entertained watching the world #1 4 putt from a perfectly placed approach shot! And if this type of USGA set-up is not to embarrass but identify the best player in the world how come only one current world #1 has ever won a US Open (Tiger, 3 times)?

A full scale revolt against the USGA would be in order. I'm a 2 with 50 years playing experience. I play an Arnold Palmer college course (Lonnie Poole NC State Raleigh NC) that keeps reasonable green speed except when there's a tournament when it's running 14 it's just not fun at all. Thankfully those rounds are only a handful a year. I also regularly play private club that hosts the Senior Tour (Prestonwood Cary NC). The members pride themselves at having greens that run 13-14 on the stimp. Hitting a good drive, solid approach to 15 feet and 3 putting, without hitting a bad putt (I'm not a bad putter) makes you want to quit the game. I'm surely not the only one?

I can add that at my league course, which is a joke compared to Oakmont, the sup gets all excited this week and places pins in, let’s call it… ill advised positions.

JoeSchmoe · June 13

I'll disagree.

I think every course on the tour needs to play more with more difficulty.

If you don't hit the fairway you should be punished.

It would help remedy the "bombs and wedges" tour play we've been seeing for a while now.

Force the players to hit their mid and long irons.

Just my 2c.

hammergolf · June 13

1 hour ago, Frank Newport said:

Are you willing to bet the final score is under par? Loser can never post on GolfWRX again.

I hope it’s +10. The player with the lowest score will get the trophy. You can continue to whine about tough conditions, but I’ll just watch and see who wins, not what the final score is.

tiderider · June 13

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I like the challenging layout of Oakmont. It's a fair course, and only killing golf for those golfers that want or need easier layouts to feel good about their games. Learn how to hit the ball where you want it to go. Given the long history at Oakmont, I am confident when saying, the membership likes the course difficult.

As the USGA adv says, conditions are not set to embarrass players, but expose the best players, which seems to be working.

One thing is apparent at Oakmont, too many tour players can't hit a straight ball, and can't hit fairways using a long iron...makes me wonder. If the only way to support "these guys are good" moniker is to set up the course to improve on their weaknesses, no rough, and help their strengths, speed up flatter fairways, so the ball stays in the fairway, then maybe they should look for a more fitting moniker.

Facing difficult conditions is all about stepping up to the challenge. I am enjoying the US Open, especially seeing those that can't hit the ball relatively straight, pressing to overcome one mistake with another mistake. Ya gotta love how USGA golf separates the field.

great post ...

this is a fabulous course/setup ... if you accept the premise that US Open golf is about a "demanding" test, then Oakmont is the course for the modern times ... it has the room and money to put in adaptations to the technology and confluence of athleticism/driver effect ... just watched Lawrence play the 2nd ... can you hit a 250 or so shot? ... to a green? ... to the fairway (tee shot or layup)? ... can you hit a tight 90 yard wedge? ... what happens if you are a bit off? ... they can manipulate the course without subair by asking a lot of different questions that have a more than avg severeness to the penaly for a wrong answer ... Rory is grinding to make the cut, Lawrence is going over on a 90 yard wege shot and a shot poorly played is a shot irrevocably lost ... it's not about ROI for the driver ...

forgot to mention Lawrence's tee shot, a low but huge banana slice with the driver that travelled about 270 ... KK commented it was a neat, little shot ... Oakmont can bring out that shot ...

Edited June 13 by tiderider

golferdude54 · June 13

It's just a little sad that the only way to make a Gil Hanse course tough without any trees is to make it longer and add more bunkers and have the greens stimp 15. Gil sure hates trees and loves adding bunkers and making the fairways wider and greens bigger.

fowlerscousin · June 13

I'm all for tough set ups. But the 70's hair rough and Armour-all greens are partly because the driving tech has created the demand for "just grow the rough bro"

italianstallion · June 13

12 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

It's just a little sad that the only way to make a Gil Hanse course tough without any trees is to make it longer and add more bunkers and have the greens stimp 15. Gil sure hates trees and loves adding bunkers and making the fairways wider and greens bigger.

This isn’t a Gil Hanse course though, and he didn’t remove any trees in play.

buckI · June 13

8 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

It's just a little sad that the only way to make a Gil Hanse course tough without any trees is to make it longer and add more bunkers and have the greens stimp 15. Gil sure hates trees and loves adding bunkers and making the fairways wider and greens bigger.

The trees were removed years ago way before Hanse did the restoration.

Oakmont definitely has been tweaked and restored but it has always had high thick rough (this years spring weather has made it really thick), super fast and firm greens and been know as a brute. Do not think this has anything to do with a Hanse course.

PedronNiall · June 13

Who's leading? Those who hit fairways and play to the right spot with the right clubs on the greens. Those who normally take advantage of being able to hit it anywhere as long as it's well over 300 are finding massive holes in their game. There's no weak second cut that lets the ball hop back in the fairway or that can be hit out of with no stress. All of the bunkers offer a high likelihood of forcing a layup instead of giving perfect lies that give no penalty over the fairway.

I hate tricked up, but this isn't that. The very best are being challenged and many are being found wanting.

Frank Newport · June 13

There’s nothing creative about growing the rough to 9 inches. Any course can do that.

wedgegame · June 13

6 hours ago, StoutKing said:

So you're saying Robert Trent Jones > Gil Hanse?

Well RTJ actually designed courses while Hanse is just a renovation merchant taking credit for other people's work.

hammergolf · June 13

15 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

Make the bet or admit you’re wrong about this setup being fair. Dont be scared.

Scared? You’re the guy complaining about guys making bogeys. Fair = Everyone in the field has the opportunity to hit it in the fwy. Fair = Everyone in the field has the opportunity to control their iron shots. What you call “luck” or “unfair” is what guys with a pair and mental toughness call part of the game. Soft people complain about the conditions of a course. Tough people accept the challenge and fight to elevate their game to compete.

hammergolf · June 13

17 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Who's leading? Those who hit fairways and play to the right spot with the right clubs on the greens. Those who normally take advantage of being able to hit it anywhere as long as it's well over 300 are finding massive holes in their game. There's no weak second cut that lets the ball hop back in the fairway or that can be hit out of with no stress. All of the bunkers offer a high likelihood of forcing a layup instead of giving perfect lies that give no penalty over the fairway.

I hate tricked up, but this isn't that. The very best are being challenged and many are being found wanting.

Exactly! They are all playing the same course. It’s a simple equation. Whoever controls their ball the best and makes the fewest mistakes will win the tournament.

italianstallion · June 13

18 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

There’s nothing creative about growing the rough to 9 inches. Any course can do that.

Nothing creative about being able to play your preferred shot shape and trajectory on every shot. Any golfer can do that.

Shane Cavitt · June 13

9 hours ago, 2over said:

Oakmont doubles down on this with all the greens sloping away from you and bizarrely shaped because they couldn't take the time to design proper greens for enjoyable play.

The tournament thread and this thread are filled with ridiculous statements, but this may be the most ridiculous one of them all. Couldn't take the time to design proper greens? The greens complexes are some of the most interesting they will see all year. I agree that the speed is too fast for the slopes and undulations. But to say they aren't proper greens is naive at best.

The PGA dumbs down the greens on the tour and won't allow slopes above 1.5-2% so they can run fast. The game would be much more enjoyable with more interesting greens.

Edited June 13 by Shane Cavitt

wedgegame · June 13

1 minute ago, italianstallion said:

Nothing creative about being able to play your preferred shot shape and trajectory on every shot. Any golfer can do that.

There's a middle ground though, rough should make harder to play your preferred shot shape not inhibit it entirely.

italianstallion · June 13

1 minute ago, wedgegame said:

There's a middle ground though, rough should make harder to play your preferred shot shape not inhibit it entirely.

There’s a perfectly good fairway on every hole they can use that won’t inhibit anything at all though.

Shane Cavitt · June 13

24 minutes ago, Frank Newport said:

There’s nothing creative about growing the rough to 9 inches. Any course can do that.

The primary rough is not 9 inches. It is 5.25 inches. The fescue in the ditches is definitely higher. Hence why it is marked as a hazard.

AZBRONCFAN · June 13

Is it killing golf? No

Are the greens too fast? Probably

Does the average golfer need to be concerned with it? I don't think you will be joining the club anytime soon and no need to worry about it.

Oakmont USGA type layouts are killing golf...

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