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Question For All The Other Single Digit Handicappers on Here


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I'm noticing a theme here that most of those that dug single digits out of the dirt also played a lot as a kid...

 

I've only skimmed most of the replies. Did you suggest that people would be better off just doing it on their own? Because that is not the impression I got.

 

What would be your advice to a 35+ year old with career and family who's never held a club before? Would that advice change for a teenager with nothing better to do than spend all summer farting around the local muni?

Edited by KD1
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2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Myself as well.  I don't know that I would trade my path though in regards between the balance of play and practice.  I may have got to my current level quicker with lessons but I was a 5 handicap 3 seasons after I picked a club up, I'm inclined to think that I would have got there through determination and my curious nature anyway.  You hit the nail on the head with 'time and effort'.  That is the limitation, much more so than lessons I think, or at least in my case.

I’m sure there are plenty of people make low handicap or better but I’ve personally never met one that wasn’t obsessed with golf for a period of time at some point. 

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3 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


My mechanics were held together by sheer hand-eye coordination that I needed to establish by hitting at least 50-75 balls on the range prior to teeing off. Everything I was doing was a series of compensations due to bad fundamentals, so I was stuck at 8-10 because of blow up holes. Out of bounds tee shots and poor approaches mainly leading to more double and triples. These days I can roll up to a course after not touching a club for 6 months, hit a small bucket, and shoot 75 because the blow ups are far more rare due to decent repeatable mechanics. Instruction helped identify those and my own work keep me focused on my tendencies and what I need to feel when things are "off*. 

Thanks. The learning what to feel when things are off is very key to maintaining a level of play as we age.  We all move a little differently from day to day.

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1 minute ago, airjammer said:

I’m sure there are plenty of people make low handicap or better but I’ve personally never met one that wasn’t obsessed with golf for a period of time at some point. 

100%!  The common thread with the ones I know, myself included, is that for a period of time in their life they 'LIVED' golf!

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6 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I may have got to my current level quicker with lessons but I was a 5 handicap 3 seasons after I picked a club up

In this thread, and much of it I agree with just based on human nature, but I wonder about this statement.

 

Who is to say with quality instruction before you (or I learned) to compensate you ceiling wouldn't have been scratch after 3 years... or lower?  I think the proof will be in the pudding as to whether the swing will hold up.  At 48, granted I had only had two back surgeries by then, but I was fully capable of compensating for the aspects of the swing which weren't good.

 

A little over a decade later, and another surgery for good measure, I was losing the battle and needed outside eyes to see what I couldn't and to tell me how to fix it.  And, to be fair, while we might live in the 3-5% of all golfers in regards to handicap, when I play with someone who really knows how to play golf I realize how pedestrian I am.  

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31 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

  

Well, yeah, probably.  I'm also of the opinion that there are far more golfers who largely haven't taken lessons.  And, that there would be far more single digit handicaps if every golfer took lessons with a reputable teacher.  

he’s arguing a statement nobody made in another thread

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Currently an 8 handicap at 70 years old. Started golf at age 54. No lessons, no videos, no books. 100% self taught.  In 18 months I was a 2 handicap with low scores in the 60s. Currently have 2 titanium hips. I can lose track of them at times.  I now also shake a lot. Hence the higher handicap.

 

No, lessons are not absolutely necessary. All depends on the individual.

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28 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

That's the rub right?  There is a lot of bad golf advice out there.  But finding the good stuff is worth it and will pay dividends.

As much as I agree with you here, instructors are like fitters, too damn many profess to being better than they really are.  In other words, good is few and far between.

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33 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I'm noticing a theme here that most of those that dug single digits out of the dirt also played a lot as a kid...

 

I've only skimmed most of the replies. Did you suggest that people would be better off just doing it on their own? Because that is not the impression I got.

 

What would be your advice to a 35+ year old with career and family who's never held a club before? Would that advice change for a teenager with nothing better to do than spend all summer farting around the local muni?

It's time, effort and desire.  Lessons can speed things up but in my opinion you need to put the focused time into practice and play either direction you go.  Most of the single digit players I am around largely sorted it on their own but played and practiced a pile at some point in their life.  A 35 year old just starting out after never holding a club?  My advice would depend a bit on how athletic they are and how much desire they have.  Take some lessons for sure, but before investing too much in that, have some self discovery.  Play...that's the point of the game.  It will become somewhat clear if the time and effort is worth chasing.

 

Either way, whether it was a 35 year old or a teenager, I would personally encourage some self discovery, (play and practice yourself, read some books, etc.), before jumping hard into lessons. 

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18 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

In this thread, and much of it I agree with just based on human nature, but I wonder about this statement.

 

Who is to say with quality instruction before you (or I learned) to compensate you ceiling wouldn't have been scratch after 3 years... or lower?  I think the proof will be in the pudding as to whether the swing will hold up.  At 48, granted I had only had two back surgeries by then, but I was fully capable of compensating for the aspects of the swing which weren't good.

 

A little over a decade later, and another surgery for good measure, I was losing the battle and needed outside eyes to see what I couldn't and to tell me how to fix it.  And, to be fair, while we might live in the 3-5% of all golfers in regards to handicap, when I play with someone who really knows how to play golf I realize how pedestrian I am.  

Most people, lessons or not, won't get to scratch either path they choose.  Effort, desire and time...no lessons will get you anywhere near a ceiling without that.

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33 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I'm noticing a theme here that most of those that dug single digits out of the dirt also played a lot as a kid...

 

I've only skimmed most of the replies. Did you suggest that people would be better off just doing it on their own? Because that is not the impression I got.

 

What would be your advice to a 35+ year old with career and family who's never held a club before? Would that advice change for a teenager with nothing better to do than spend all summer farting around the local muni?

i played golf at most 5 times before covid.

 

learn the fundamentals and go grind it out. 

 

it's really simple. just takes a decent amount of time and effort, but single digit hdcp is absolutely doable for anyone. 

 

i never played varsity sports, im short, and unathletic, but im here now after 5 years, still never played varsity sports, still the same height, and just as unathletic as before but playing better than i ever have. 

 

 

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There may be more single figure handicaps who never took a lesson than did, but single figure handicaps is a pretty wide range. If you look at better players, they're much more likely to take lessons. Go have a look at a PGA Tour event and tell me how many of the people playing there have never had a lesson - I'd guess it's quite a bit less than half. College players? Likewise. Regional am events - likewise. Once you start including all the 3-9 handicaps, the proportion who haven't had a lesson will increase.

 

I think it's fair to say that most of the single figure handicaps would be better than they are if they took lessons along the way and most again would have a higher ceiling if they took lessons along the way. I would note that the lessons should be from a decent teacher and the people need to be decent students too and actually do what is asked. Digging it out of the dirt is possible, but the bad habits you learn along the way are likely to hold you back as you improve. 

 

All of which is to say if your goal is to suggest that lessons are not necessary to reach the highest level you can reach, then no. If it's to say that you can get half way decent without them, then sure, but so what? You're still almost certainly going to be better if you get lessons.

 

Almost all the young kids you see playing golf are probably getting lessons by way of junior clinics or golf camps or such. Does that count? I'm in the process of getting my kids into it too - they're going to get lessons, because what comes naturally is probably not what's ideal and why would I want to limit their potential?

 

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5 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

There may be more single figure handicaps who never took a lesson than did, but single figure handicaps is a pretty wide range. If you look at better players, they're much more likely to take lessons. Go have a look at a PGA Tour event and tell me how many of the people playing there have never had a lesson - I'd guess it's quite a bit less than half. College players? Likewise. Regional am events - likewise. Once you start including all the 3-9 handicaps, the proportion who haven't had a lesson will increase.

 

I think it's fair to say that most of the single figure handicaps would be better than they are if they took lessons along the way and most again would have a higher ceiling if they took lessons along the way. I would note that the lessons should be from a decent teacher and the people need to be decent students too and actually do what is asked. Digging it out of the dirt is possible, but the bad habits you learn along the way are likely to hold you back as you improve. 

 

All of which is to say if your goal is to suggest that lessons are not necessary to reach the highest level you can reach, then no. If it's to say that you can get half way decent without them, then sure, but so what? You're still almost certainly going to be better if you get lessons.

 

Almost all the young kids you see playing golf are probably getting lessons by way of junior clinics or golf camps or such. Does that count? I'm in the process of getting my kids into it too - they're going to get lessons, because what comes naturally is probably not what's ideal and why would I want to limit their potential?

 

I'm not talking about getting to the tour. I'm talking about getting pretty decent at golf.  Lessons don't guarantee anything, they can help the right person if they are willing to put in the time, effort and desire.  Many people get halfway decent on time, effort and desire alone.  If you don't have the time to spend practicing and playing a bunch, then lessons aren't going to be much of a benefit. I think that time, effort, desire and starting from a place of suitable coordination / athleticism is a bigger contributor to getting into single digits than lessons.  Now, to raise a ceiling, getting to low single digit or plus, sure lessons become more helpful but it still requires the time and, lots of people with technology in their phone can also get there on their own.

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1 hour ago, DShepley said:

To get there on your own, you need to be able to recognize the conflicting advice and what will and won't work for you.  

 

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

Totally agree and the 'good stuff' doesn't do to the work for you.

 

How true in both regards.  Due diligence and hard work goes a long way in this game, a long way.  

 

Every golf swing you evaluate is an opportunity gained, every swing  you don't is an opportunity lost.     Knudson

 

 

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One thing to consider is that, when I was growing up, there wasn't much good golf instruction--in fact there was a lot of damaging stuff out there. Remember the "Square to square" golf swing? What a disaster! I can vividly remember seeking "pro-level" golf instruction back in the day. What many of the local pros were teaching was just flat out wrong. You could take lessons that would set you back considerably. It's no wonder so many people ended up figuring it out on their own by digging it out of the dirt. Today golf instruction is MUCH better across the board.

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45 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

In this thread, and much of it I agree with just based on human nature, but I wonder about this statement.

 

Who is to say with quality instruction before you (or I learned) to compensate you ceiling wouldn't have been scratch after 3 years... or lower?  I think the proof will be in the pudding as to whether the swing will hold up.  At 48, granted I had only had two back surgeries by then, but I was fully capable of compensating for the aspects of the swing which weren't good.

 

A little over a decade later, and another surgery for good measure, I was losing the battle and needed outside eyes to see what I couldn't and to tell me how to fix it.  And, to be fair, while we might live in the 3-5% of all golfers in regards to handicap, when I play with someone who really knows how to play golf I realize how pedestrian I am.  

I surely wouldn't suggest to anyone to follow my self-taught road.  Most people don't have the deep dedication or time willingness to do what's needed to reach a goal.  I treated learning golf like prepping for a mission, never quit.  If it wasn't for getting married, and reprioritizing, I was headed to scratch or...  I can still up my game when playing with better golfers, but feel somewhat the same as you when in the company of real talented golfers, which I always relish.

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I've been actually playing and learning since late 2020 and am a 7 handicap. Shooting high 70s and low 80s regularly. Never had a lesson because I just don't trust them, which is stupid. I am worried that they will try to make me have a certain type of swing rather than just being the best version of myself. Idk if that's crazy or not.

 

I know to break through where I am now I need a lesson because I just have too many blow up holes (1-3 per round) which are due to inconsistencies in my swing.

 

I played baseball and basketball growing up and also just a lot of ping pong and tennis, and I am kind of a nerd in general so I understand how the golf clubs work and how they move the ball and how to move my hands to make the club contact the ball the way I want. Then it's just all about timing the hips. I try to rely on my athleticism developed over the years and so I basically use the same muscles as throwing a baseball. 

 

I definitely rely on driver and short game, as well as streaky iron play. Don't practice really anything other than short game, and maybe go to the range every 2 months. However, when I was developing my swing (going to the range during law school a lot) I went to the range 1-2 times per week. I think of longer full shots as just chips but with more power coming from the hips.

 

Also, Padraig Harrington's youtube channel has all the info I need on the swing and swing mechanics. Golf sidekick and not a scratch golfer were also great for course management. With that stuff alone and the will to improve any able bodied adult can become a single figure in my opinion.

 

However, I do believe at this point I need specific instruction to improve and develop a more consistent swing. I would describe my game as "raw" at this point and I get by on hand eye coordination a lot. But usually I decimate par 5s, par 4s under 370, and short par 3s. Then on 2-3 long par 4s I blow up usually after losing a ball in the water or OB. I just don't feel like spending the time or money on a coach right now.

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32 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I'm not talking about getting to the tour. I'm talking about getting pretty decent at golf.  Lessons don't guarantee anything, they can help the right person if they are willing to put in the time, effort and desire.  Many people get halfway decent on time, effort and desire alone.  If you don't have the time to spend practicing and playing a bunch, then lessons aren't going to be much of a benefit. I think that time, effort, desire and starting from a place of suitable coordination / athleticism is a bigger contributor to getting into single digits than lessons.  Now, to raise a ceiling, getting to low single digit or plus, sure lessons become more helpful but it still requires the time and, lots of people with technology in their phone can also get there on their own.

My point was more that the fact that at each level of ability as you get better, the proportion of people around you who have had lessons is increasing, implies that getting lessons is a good way to get better. The time, effort, desire, coordination, and athleticism requirements are reduced by taking lessons. If you want to hold yourself or others back from that for some reason I haven't managed to figure out yet, then I don't know what to tell you.

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11 minutes ago, hybrid_king said:

I've been actually playing and learning since late 2020 and am a 7 handicap. Shooting high 70s and low 80s regularly. Never had a lesson because I just don't trust them, which is stupid. I am worried that they will try to make me have a certain type of swing rather than just being the best version of myself. Idk if that's crazy or not.

 

I know to break through where I am now I need a lesson because I just have too many blow up holes (1-3 per round) which are due to inconsistencies in my swing.

 

I played baseball and basketball growing up and also just a lot of ping pong and tennis, and I am kind of a nerd in general so I understand how the golf clubs work and how they move the ball and how to move my hands to make the club contact the ball the way I want. Then it's just all about timing the hips. I try to rely on my athleticism developed over the years and so I basically use the same muscles as throwing a baseball. 

 

I definitely rely on driver and short game, as well as streaky iron play. Don't practice really anything other than short game, and maybe go to the range every 2 months. However, when I was developing my swing (going to the range during law school a lot) I went to the range 1-2 times per week. I think of longer full shots as just chips but with more power coming from the hips.

 

Also, Padraig Harrington's youtube channel has all the info I need on the swing and swing mechanics. Golf sidekick and not a scratch golfer were also great for course management. With that stuff alone and the will to improve any able bodied adult can become a single figure in my opinion.

 

However, I do believe at this point I need specific instruction to improve and develop a more consistent swing. I would describe my game as "raw" at this point and I get by on hand eye coordination a lot. But usually I decimate par 5s, par 4s under 370, and short par 3s. Then on 2-3 long par 4s I blow up usually after losing a ball in the water or OB. I just don't feel like spending the time or money on a coach right now.

 

If you beat up on par 5s, but struggle with long 4s, then just take a pencil and cross out the 4s and write 5s instead in the par column on your card.

 

Also if Harrington's youtube channel has all the info, then why does Paddy get lessons? 

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16 minutes ago, hybrid_king said:

I've been actually playing and learning since late 2020 and am a 7 handicap. Shooting high 70s and low 80s regularly. Never had a lesson because I just don't trust them, which is stupid. I am worried that they will try to make me have a certain type of swing rather than just being the best version of myself. Idk if that's crazy or not.

 

I know to break through where I am now I need a lesson because I just have too many blow up holes (1-3 per round) which are due to inconsistencies in my swing.

 

I played baseball and basketball growing up and also just a lot of ping pong and tennis, and I am kind of a nerd in general so I understand how the golf clubs work and how they move the ball and how to move my hands to make the club contact the ball the way I want. Then it's just all about timing the hips. I try to rely on my athleticism developed over the years and so I basically use the same muscles as throwing a baseball. 

 

I definitely rely on driver and short game, as well as streaky iron play. Don't practice really anything other than short game, and maybe go to the range every 2 months. However, when I was developing my swing (going to the range during law school a lot) I went to the range 1-2 times per week. I think of longer full shots as just chips but with more power coming from the hips.

 

Also, Padraig Harrington's youtube channel has all the info I need on the swing and swing mechanics. Golf sidekick and not a scratch golfer were also great for course management. With that stuff alone and the will to improve any able bodied adult can become a single figure in my opinion.

 

However, I do believe at this point I need specific instruction to improve and develop a more consistent swing. I would describe my game as "raw" at this point and I get by on hand eye coordination a lot. But usually I decimate par 5s, par 4s under 370, and short par 3s. Then on 2-3 long par 4s I blow up usually after losing a ball in the water or OB. I just don't feel like spending the time or money on a coach right now.

Go to the range and practice the shots that are losing you strokes.  Teach yourself to find a driver you can get in play.  Spend time practicing the hard stuff.

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1 hour ago, Valtiel said:


My mechanics were held together by sheer hand-eye coordination that I needed to establish by hitting at least 50-75 balls on the range prior to teeing off. Everything I was doing was a series of compensations due to bad fundamentals, so I was stuck at 8-10 because of blow up holes. Out of bounds tee shots and poor approaches mainly leading to more double and triples. These days I can roll up to a course after not touching a club for 6 months, hit a small bucket, and shoot 75 because the blow ups are far more rare due to decent repeatable mechanics. Instruction helped identify those and my own work keep me focused on my tendencies and what I need to feel when things are "off*. 

Our games are so similar. 

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9 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Go to the range and practice the shots that are losing you strokes.  Teach yourself to find a driver you can get in play.  Spend time practicing the hard stuff.

It's not even my driver that I mess up on. It's shanking approach shots into jail. It happens once or twice per round. But yeah that's why I need a lesson because the misses just sneak up on me.

 

But when I do go to the range it's exactly that, to practice shots or situations I see on the course and struggle with. This is how I've gotten really good at low punch shots under tree branches, and high shots in the ionosphere to go over trees. Just don't always have the time to go to the range because life is busy right now. 

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16 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

If you beat up on par 5s, but struggle with long 4s, then just take a pencil and cross out the 4s and write 5s instead in the par column on your card.

 

Also if Harrington's youtube channel has all the info, then why does Paddy get lessons? 

It's not always every long par 4, but yes I agree with you. Par is a social construct and so I can think of a short par 5 like a par 4, or a par 4 where I get into trouble as a par 5, or a 230 yard par 3 as a par 4. On par 5s, my average is 5.3 and on 4s my average is 4.6. The problem is that my swing is just inconsistent and so I always hit a couple of approach shots into terrible spots per round and there's no pattern to why or where the misses will come from which is why I need a real 1-on-1 lesson or two to fix that part of my swing.

 

Paddy gets lessons because he is a major winner and multimillionaire who can afford to have multiple coaches on retainer. If I was trying to be a pro I would of course have coaches. According to my strokes gained stats I'm about 14 shots worse per round than a pga pro. That's the difference coaches would make to my game. But it hasn't been necessary to get to this point so far because of 1) the internet and 2) free short game areas around town.

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5 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

its a bit of a cop out more times than not. Unless you're working 80+ a week or chasing kids around you have time. Most people just dont want it enough to allocate that time watching TV or at the bar stool to improve at golf, or anything else

 

I'm with the others who aren't going to judge people based on their priorities or make sweeping generalizations about how much free time they have or how they should spend it. Some people simply don't have a bunch of extra time. I've said many times that if they're posting here or elsewhere, they can probably spend 15 minutes a day working on their golf game, or even five minutes, but that obviously doesn't necessarily include playing a lot, either.

 

I try to make a rule of not judging how much people should value things like their money (some people will feel a painting I wouldn't pay $10 for is worth $10M to them) or their time. Families, jobs, etc. can all get in the way and golf might be a passion, but sixth or seventh on the list. Needs come before wants.

 

5 hours ago, parbung said:

everyone has 30 minutes to spare. 

 

Not everyone.

 

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

If his goal was to troll then based on the response to this thread I would say that he has succeeded admirably!

 

Nobody's really taken the bait, though. He's arguing against a straw man. I think it's obvious to those who have seen and read the other posts and topics.

 

 

strawman.pngHe's making false statements like "the people … took offense to my idea that there might be more single digit handicap players in the world who got there on their own than the lesson tee created." It's a false statement — have you seen anyone anywhere take offense? I have not.

 

His point seems to be that he thinks "there are more single digit handicap players in the world who got there on there largely on their own than the lesson tee created." There may be. Probably are. But who has argued otherwise? There's no "debate" here — there's just one guy trying to make a point that nobody's even really disputed. And when points are brought up against his general thoughts… he ignores them or makes personal comments that don't further the discussion.

 

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/strawman.html

 

2 hours ago, MattC555 said:

 Well, yeah, probably.  I'm also of the opinion that there are far more golfers who largely haven't taken lessons.  And, that there would be far more single digit handicaps if every golfer took lessons with a reputable teacher.  

 

Probably, yes.

 

28 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

My point was more that the fact that at each level of ability as you get better, the proportion of people around you who have had lessons is increasing, implies that getting lessons is a good way to get better. The time, effort, desire, coordination, and athleticism requirements are reduced by taking lessons. If you want to hold yourself or others back from that for some reason I haven't managed to figure out yet, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Yep.

 

@MonteScheinblum said it well here:

 

17 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

1.  Can you get to any level without lessons?  Yes

2.  Will you be hindered by 🐶💩 lessons? Yes

3.  Will you improve faster with proper instruction?  Yes

4.  After you have played for more than 3 or so years, can you improve without proper instruction and/or increased time at the course? No

5.  Will you achieve your ceiling without proper instruction? Extremely unlikely.

6.  Is using 1 and 2 as a platform to negate the effectiveness of proper instruction a strawman? Most definitely.

 

What's the debate? There isn't one.

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1 hour ago, KD1 said:

I'm noticing a theme here that most of those that dug single digits out of the dirt also played a lot as a kid...

 

I've only skimmed most of the replies. Did you suggest that people would be better off just doing it on their own? Because that is not the impression I got.

 

What would be your advice to a 35+ year old with career and family who's never held a club before? Would that advice change for a teenager with nothing better to do than spend all summer farting around the local muni?

I think someone learning the game as an adult needs lessons the most. Young kids can usually build good fundamentals because their not strong enough to overpower the golf club, they have to learn to move efficiently. 

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For me it was mostly grinding it out practicing, I have had maybe 10 lessons over that time on rare occasions. I'm currently a 5 but during covid I was practicing every single day for 2 hours and got down to a 2 for a short time. 

I've realized my swing always needs maintenance 😞 

Edited by ballzo
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i've had two lessons in my life in my early 20s and got to a 4 hcp (current) at 42.  my only two lessons were 100% focused on teaching me how to hit a draw.  everything else since this has been quasi self taught.  i say quasi because i've relied on a lot of videos from monte scheinblum and amg golf on instagram to further refine my swing and practice.  i find their teachings to be the easiest to digest and most applicable.  i played baseball my whole life so am somewhat of a natural swing type athlete. hope this helps!  For me my game 100% lives and dies based on how well i drive the golf ball.  knowing your strengths and playing to them takes time but can help accelerate things.  

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1 minute ago, blakesmittkamp said:

i've had two lessons in my life in my early 20s and got to a 4 hcp (current) at 42.  my only two lessons were 100% focused on teaching me how to hit a draw.  everything else since this has been quasi self taught.  i say quasi because i've relied on a lot of videos from monte scheinblum and amg golf on instagram to further refine my swing and practice.  i find their teachings to be the easiest to digest and most applicable.  i played baseball my whole life so am somewhat of a natural swing type athlete. hope this helps!  For me my game 100% lives and dies based on how well i drive the golf ball.  knowing your strengths and playing to them takes time but can help accelerate things.  

Strokes gained tells us that driving the ball well is pretty important.  How far you hit the ball is also a significant contributing factor to getting to a low handicap.  The closer you are to the hole, the fewer strokes on average it takes you to hole out.  I don't know what the threshold is, but I don't know any scratch golfers who hit their driver 220 yards and don't have an iron in their bag they can carry 190.

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