Question For All The Other Single Digit Handicappers on Here

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

I believe the premise posed is a good one, though I do disagree with the idea of the sales pitch in regard to lessons.  In any human endeavor there are three basic steps; exposure, aptitude, then participation.  I think it is the rare mathematician who struggled in math class, or the rare golfer who got on the range the first time and connected with 20% of their swings.  Generally speaking, and it's human nature, people pursue those things at which they feel successful early on, so I suspect many of the low singles didn't take lessons to get there.

 

But, they had to play fairly regularly to get there, I think that is a fair statement as well.  One thing I think gets overlooked in the nature vs nurture debate, which essentially is this thread and the is golf hard thread, is in order to maintain a low cap takes work at some point.  Monte pointed it out as well, but look at #1 below.

In most cases, at some point, even the low capper (unless they are happy with their handicap) has to take lessons to break the incorrect pattern the young body could overcome.  Then it is incumbent on that player to practice the new pattern.

 

As it pertains to the second category, because of aptitude (or desire) there is little to no chance they will get to a low digit handicap.  And I say this even though in the "4 things" thread I am not even sure you need to be able to do two of them.  If you can hit a baseball off a tee to the outfield there is no reason why they couldn't be a single digit cap with some fine tuning.   

I would add in the 4 things thread, "can you touch your toes?"  Also, lessons are very helpful, but I think there are other factors that contribute.

Edited June 17 by DShepley

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, airjammer said:

What’s interesting is that we have more information than ever and more people taking lessons than ever and yet people don’t seem to be much better at golf judging from the players I get paired with and the ball striking abilities I’ve witnessed every week on the range. 

Quote

“If we were given one word of information in our entire history, how we'd treasure it! how we'd pore over ever syllable, divining it's meaning, arguing its importance; how we'd examine it and wring every lesson we could from it. Yet today we have trillions of words, tidal waves of information and the smallest detail of every action our government and businesses take is easily available to us at the touch of a button. And yet...we ignore it, and learn nothing from it. One day we'll die of voluntary ignorance ”
― Karen Traviss, Order 66

 

[MountainKing]

Started at the range when I was 5, started playing at 6.  Lots of lessons, lots of hours practicing, lots of rounds, lots of tournaments.  How I got to scratch was stopping with the lessons/practice and backing into it.  With a toddler around I'm more or less just a weekend warrior these days that doesn't practice. 

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, parbung said:

People always say, "oh I don't have the time."

 

Lessons can be a shortcut and save people a lot of time.

 

It's a recreational activity for most. Lack of time is a very real thing for a lot of golfers.

 

25 minutes ago, parbung said:

You don't have to be good at golf to be single digits. just gotta be somewhat competent. 

 

We agree there. Tom Coyne said "scratch ain't &%!†" after all. 😄 

 

7 minutes ago, JustineThomas said:

this is liking asking "for those who scored 1500 on their SAT, did you study on your own or did you get a tutor?" which of course is a pointless and futile question because everyone's brain and learning capacities are completely different and not comparable from person to person.

 

Yeah. I think people see this topic for what it is, though.

[JustineThomas]

11 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Are you a single digit handicap?  Was it lessons that got you there or did you figure it out on your own?  If you think the thread is pointless, you are free to scroll past it.

it doesn't matter because my experience will have absolutely no bearing on anyone else's because our bodies, brains, and physical skills are all completely different. 

[SNIPERBBB]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

33 minutes ago, parbung said:

People always say, "oh I don't have the time."

 

Lessons can be a shortcut and save people a lot of time.

 

It's a recreational activity for most. Lack of time is a very real thing for a lot of golfers.

its a bit of a cop out more times than not. Unless you're working 80+ a week or chasing kids around you have time. Most people just dont want it enough to allocate that time watching TV or at the bar stool to improve at golf, or anything else.

 

Forner chairman at the hospital i used to work for liked to say, "If you have business, you have no(golf) game, if you have (golf)game, you have no business).

Edited June 17 by SNIPERBBB

[parbung]

14 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

its a bit of a cop out more times than not. Unless you're working 80+ a week or chasing kids around you have time. Most people just dont want it enough to allocate that time watching TV or at the bar stool to improve at golf, or anything else.

 

Forner chairman at the hospital i used to work for liked to say, "If you have business, you have no(golf) game, if you have (golf)game, you have no business).

well said. 

you can make significant improvement even if you just allocate 30 mins of your day on something golf related. 

 

everyone has 30 minutes to spare. 

[fred faldo]

for me I could not have come close without lessons. The home course for me growing up had a ton of very good junior players and I was not one of them (could not break 90) as my mind was only on one thing at that time and it was not golf. I caddied for the club assitant pro and after a US Open qualifier we were having dinner and he chewed me out for not taking the game serious and demanded I meet him at the range the next day after his shift in the pro shop. I got there and he has a three foot piece of 2 x 4 and a can of white paint that he used to make a three foot line that he placed a tee in the middle and told me to grab my six iron, two hours later I was hitting a five foot draw every shot and I was hooked for life. I hit balls seven days a week and made it to scratch in one year, Many of us from my home town would go to a tournament in Huntington WV every year and I went from the Bourbon flight (the fiftenth and last) to the calcutta flight in one year, sorry to be so long winded but a good teacher is worth their weight in gold and I am not sure I would still be playing this game without those lessons from that great man. I am now pushing 70 with a horrible back but still love the game all from that first lesson

Edited June 17 by fred faldo

[SNIPERBBB]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

The large majority of lesson takers are 

 

1. Older

2. Low skill

 

3. Those that have hit rock bottom with their swing. Probably the best and worst people to deal with.  The best because theyve finally realized they need help and ready to listen.  The worse because like a drowning person, they are flailing around and more likely to drag you down.

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, parbung said:

well said. 

you can make significant improvement even if you just allocate 30 mins of your day on something golf related. 

 

everyone has 30 minutes to spare. 

Never worked two jobs with kids then? Sweeping statements often leave one looking daft.

[cassel191919]

I took 1 lesson about 10 years ago he fixed my grip and I dropped about 7-10 shots on average. Hover from .5-3

[parbung]

10 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Never worked two jobs with kids then? Sweeping statements often leave one looking daft.

*most people

 

regardless, if you need to have 2 jobs with kids, getting to single digit (or golf) really shouldn't be in the agenda lol

Edited June 17 by parbung

[TheDeanAbides]

16 minutes ago, parbung said:

*most people

 

regardless, if you need to have 2 jobs with kids, getting to single digit (or golf) really shouldn't be in the agenda lol

Why?

[PedronNiall]

34 minutes ago, airjammer said:

What’s interesting is that we have more information than ever and more people taking lessons than ever and yet people don’t seem to be much better at golf judging from the players I get paired with and the ball striking abilities I’ve witnessed every week on the range. 

 

Casual lessons tell nothing. There are more people taking casual piano and guitar lessons than ever, yet the average music hobbyist isn't highly-skilled, no? Most people in most areas of life have not been exposed to the best methods for efficient, effective practice nor the best techniques for overcoming the mostly mental obstacles to beginning said practice. Even though such things are more accessible than ever many do not avail themselves of them and many others want to argue how they know better. 

 

What do we see in the big picture? The best in all sports including golf continue to get more competitive, and almost without exception they have professional instruction. Tech alone does not offset the increased distance, green speeds, and consistent improvements in overall agronomy present on better courses, yet players have met or bettered scoring averages on Tour courses because of better instruction and knowledge about the swing. In every arena the skill ceilings have begun to move closer to the limits of our bodies because the very best and those who instruct them use proper analysis to determine the fastest path to efficient, repeatable action. 

 

Golf is probably the worst for non-professionals insisting that instruction is unnecessary and sticking their heads in the sand when pointed to vetted methods for improvement despite almost all of the very best not only getting lessons but availing themselves of proven measurement systems to enhance and speed their learning. There have been threads including recent ones where people try to argue golf is easy compared to other sports, yet the numbers on every front undermine that claim, including the performance of greats from other sports who have taken it up and say soundly how difficult it is. 

 

Can I become an award-winning or even concert-level classical pianist without lessons? Sure, but seems only a golfer would be silly enough to go that route. Perhaps we could say the same for becoming an all-star track & field athlete or a renowned writer or a great local singer: if you find someone thinking they'll get there fastest or with the best technique on grit alone, they're probably a golfer.

[Nixhex524]

40 minutes ago, JustineThomas said:

it doesn't matter because my experience will have absolutely no bearing on anyone else's because our bodies, brains, and physical skills are all completely different. 

 

I think this is kind of the underlying point to the thread here.  It is interesting to see or know how players get to where they are.  Some are natural ability and some take a lot more work.  IDK why it has to be a pissing match or gotcha moments all the time here lately nor does it seem OP is trying to "debate" anything.  This post is exactly the point.  We are all different, so what path got us to where we are?  

 

I have taken 1 lesson.  I was at my lowest, 2.0, in 2019.  But I was playing a lot more and playing with some good players.  Best guy was a +4.  I tried to copy a lot of what he did on the course and it really helped my game.  FF to now... I work a lot more, have a kid and a bad back and I am about a 5 atm.  I think this game needs time and money.  Which is something a lot of people don't have readily available.  Some just have natural ability and understanding of the game an find it easier.  I am 47 now, all I can say is enjoy your youth while you can, the body will definitely start to break down over time and make this game harder.  And don't forget mental focus... that doesn't get easier either and may be more important to a lot of people than natural ability... and can't be taught.  

 

It's possible to be good at this game without lessons for a few of the gifted, but most of us will hit that wall without them.  You can still be good, but know you will probably get stuck depending on ability levels.

 

 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

I think this is kind of the underlying point to the thread here.  It is interesting to see or know how players get to where they are.  Some are natural ability and some take a lot more work.  IDK why it has to be a pissing match or gotcha moments all the time here lately nor does it seem OP is trying to "debate" anything.  This post is exactly the point.  We are all different, so what path got us to where we are?  

 

I have taken 1 lesson.  I was at my lowest, 2.0, in 2019.  But I was playing a lot more and playing with some good players.  Best guy was a +4.  I tried to copy a lot of what he did on the course and it really helped my game.  FF to now... I work a lot more, have a kid and a bad back and I am about a 5 atm.  I think this game needs time and money.  Which is something a lot of people don't have readily available.  Some just have natural ability and understanding of the game an find it easier.  I am 47 now, all I can say is enjoy your youth while you can, the body will definitely start to break down over time and make this game harder.  And don't forget mental focus... that doesn't get easier either and may be more important to a lot of people than natural ability... and can't be taught.  

 

It's possible to be good at this game without lessons for a few of the gifted, but most of us will hit that wall without them.  You can still be good, but know you will probably get stuck depending on ability levels.

 

 

 

 

The thing is that good athletic ability can overcome suspect mechanics when you're younger. Once you hit a certain age and timing those moves becomes harder the scores start to climb. If, on the other hand, there's an investment in learning a more neutral swing that's easier on the body, there's no need to have such a drop off. Good mechanics taught by a decent instructor gives longevity. 

Edited June 17 by TheDeanAbides

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

I think this is kind of the underlying point to the thread here.  It is interesting to see or know how players get to where they are.  Some are natural ability and some take a lot more work.  IDK why it has to be a pissing match or gotcha moments all the time here lately nor does it seem OP is trying to "debate" anything.  This post is exactly the point.  We are all different, so what path got us to where we are?  

 

I have taken 1 lesson.  I was at my lowest, 2.0, in 2019.  But I was playing a lot more and playing with some good players.  Best guy was a +4.  I tried to copy a lot of what he did on the course and it really helped my game.  FF to now... I work a lot more, have a kid and a bad back and I am about a 5 atm.  I think this game needs time and money.  Which is something a lot of people don't have readily available.  Some just have natural ability and understanding of the game an find it easier.  I am 47 now, all I can say is enjoy your youth while you can, the body will definitely start to break down over time and make this game harder.  And don't forget mental focus... that doesn't get easier either and may be more important to a lot of people than natural ability... and can't be taught.  

 

It's possible to be good at this game without lessons for a few of the gifted, but most of us will hit that wall without them.  You can still be good, but know you will probably get stuck depending on ability levels.

 

 

 

 

Thanks.  The point is, "How important were lessons in your journey to single digits vs other factors like the time you spent on the course or time spent digging it out yourself?" I expect that a lot of the good club players that people know, were on a path of desire and dedication to get there anyway.  I expect that starting from a solid base of coordination / athleticism and putting significant time in was a bigger factor than lessons. 

[parbung]

29 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Why?

If u really gotta ask why, then it makes total sense why someone is in that position in the first place lol

 

Unless your job is to golf.

even then, you're telling me if you have 2 jobs with kids, you don't have 30 minutes to spare before you go to bed? 

sleep 30 mins less and there you go.

you can't expect results without some kind of sacrifice.

Edited June 17 by parbung

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

He's trying (unsuccessfully) to troll some people. But they're smart enough to realize he's just straw manning his way through it.

If his goal was to troll then based on the response to this thread I would say that he has succeeded admirably!

[Petethreeput]

11 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Golf is probably the worst for non-professionals insisting that instruction is unnecessary and sticking their heads in the sand when pointed to vetted methods for improvement despite almost all of the very best not only getting lessons but availing themselves of proven measurement systems to enhance and speed their learning.

I would agree with this, but why?  I don't think the golfer is grittier than other athletes, do you?

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are speaking about the availability of instruction to professionals and the amateur doesn't avail themselves to the same techniques, is this correct? 

 

If I am correct, IMO the reason is simple, it's ROI and rational decision making.  Sheffler spends $5,000 a week to make $100,000/ week, that's simple math (obviously the numbers are made up).  This math becomes much more difficult for the amateur because they get strokes so they don't HAVE to get better to compete and the lesson is $75 but the $2 nassau maxes out at $10.

 

I do agree the fastest way to improve, or to have the highest ceiling is to get lessons early just like any other learned activity.

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The thing is that poor athletic ability can overcome suspect mechanics when you're younger. Once you hit a certain age and timing those moves becomes harder the scores start to climb. If, on the other hand, there's an investment in learning a more neutral swing that's easier on the body, there's no need to have such a drop off. Good mechanics taught by a decent instructor gives longevity. 

It should give longevity however, the decline in mobility with age is situational.  Some people remain active late in life and are less affected, some people need hip and knee replacement, some people get arthritis and others don't.  I know players now in their 70s that retained their single digit handicap late in life. One was a +2-3, 29 years ago and is now a 2 handicap at 72 years old, another was a 3-4 and is now a 9 at 74 years old.

[DShepley]

24 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Can I become an award-winning or even concert-level classical pianist without lessons? Sure, but seems only a golfer would be silly enough to go that route. Perhaps we could say the same for becoming an all-star track & field athlete or a renowned writer or a great local singer: if you find someone thinking they'll get there fastest or with the best technique on grit alone, they're probably a golfer.

I'm not talking about being among the best in the world at something.  You don't need the 'best technique' to play golf to a single digit handicap and...single digit is a dream for a lot of people.  What I'm trying to determine is if there are other factors that contribute to people getting to single digit that are more of an influence than lessons.  I'm inclined to think that most single digit handicap players had a determination and committed to the time requirement to largely get their on their own and came from a background with a base of good coordination and athleticism.

 

I'm 5'7" tall, no amount of lessons are going to make me an all-start track and field athlete...there are physical attributes that contribute more to the success.

[DShepley]

31 minutes ago, Nixhex524 said:

It's possible to be good at this game without lessons for a few of the gifted, but most of us will hit that wall without them.  You can still be good, but know you will probably get stuck depending on ability levels.

I also think that many many players will take lessons and also get stuck.

[Pepperturbo]

I took up golf at 40, self-taught using three books.  Created a very stringent practice regime five days a week, 5+/- hrs per day, 250-500 balls a day, and played 1-2 rds on executive courses, over 4yrs.  Reached single digit 8, inside 4yrs.  Took a set of classes from Jamie Mulligan, to insure my basics were spot on, then attained a low index of 2, two years later.  Playing to 5ish now.

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I took up golf at 40, self-taught using three books.  Created a very stringent practice regime five days a week, 5+/- hrs per day, 250-500 balls a day, and played 1-2 rds on executive courses, over 4yrs.  Reached single digit 8, inside 4yrs.  Took a set of classes from Jamie Mulligan, to insure my basics were spot on, then attained a low index of 2, two years later.  Playing to 5ish now.

Which three books (I have a shelf full)?

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

its a bit of a cop out more times than not. Unless you're working 80+ a week or chasing kids around you have time. Most people just dont want it enough to allocate that time watching TV or at the bar stool to improve at golf, or anything else.

 

Forner chairman at the hospital i used to work for liked to say, "If you have business, you have no(golf) game, if you have (golf)game, you have no business).

I work 70 hours a week 7 days a week for last 17 years with a family and still close to scratch playing 9 holes a week 6 months out of the year….so that sounds like an excuse from someone with an ego problem and needs an excuse why they are not a good golfer.
 

My best friend makes mega bucks in the medical industry and he plays with hospital ceo’s every week who have every excuse under the sun why they are 18 handicaps. Truth is they just don’t have the athleticism to achieve low handicap. 

 

For those who haven’t been around highly successful people, the vast majority of very successful people are narcissistic and couldn’t fathom being not good at everything so they make up excuses. 

[SNIPERBBB]

12 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I'm not talking about being among the best in the world at something.  You don't need the 'best technique' to play golf to a single digit handicap and...single digit is a dream for a lot of people.  What I'm trying to determine is if there are other factors that contribute to people getting to single digit that are more of an influence than lessons.  I'm inclined to think that most single digit handicap players had a determination and committed to the time requirement to largely get their on their own and came from a background with a base of good coordination and athleticism.

 

I'm 5'7" tall, no amount of lessons are going to make me an all-start track and field athlete...there are physical attributes that contribute more to the success.

One thing to keep in mind is that a single digit isnt that special when looking at the broader population. Of men that keep caps, 20% will get to singles. Which is equivalent to making your high school varsity team in the common sports. A 0-5 is closer to making to playing in college. 
 

On this sub forum you're going to a have a higher percentage of single digits than you will at any local course.

[Pepperturbo]

15 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Which three books (I have a shelf full)?

LOL These three are still on my desk.  Hogan-Modern Fundamentals of Golf, Faldo-A Swing for Life, and Ballesteros-Natural Golf.  One of Nicklaus' books contributed, but years back misplaced it.  Oh, I can touch my toes. 🙂

 

Edited June 17 by Pepperturbo

[DLiver]

Interesting discussion, despite the insistence of some people to repeatedly crap all over it (the instruction forum is def a bizarro place).

 

I played a lot as a kid, but never took any lessons (admittedly I was blessed with natural coordination). Once I went away to college, I pretty much stopped playing. Even then I was able to stay at <10 playing four or five times a year.

 

Fast forward 15 years, i joined a country club and decided to see how good I could get. I took a bunch of lessons from a lot of different pros and learned about the golf swing, and also learned how to take lessons. I spent a ton of time on the range, and within four years got to scratch. I had a nice, repeatable swing. But more importantly, I knew how I wanted to swing. With video, it was pretty easy to stay on track.

 

It is interesting to me how many of my friends have no idea how they want to swing. They just go to the range and look for a feel that will help them strike it solidly. These are all <7 indexes, so that works for them (to an extent).

 

As I've gotten older, it has become increasingly difficult to swing the club the way I want. That is a whole different kind of challenge.

 

To sum it up, I think trying to dig it out of the dirt is the long road. It works, but it take a ton of time combined with an awareness of what you are trying to do. Good lessons can definitely shorten process, if you know how to apply what you've learned.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 minute ago, airjammer said:

I work 70 hours a week 7 days a week for last 17 years with a family and still close to scratch playing 9 holes a week 6 months out of the year….so that sounds like an excuse from someone with an ego problem and needs an excuse why they are not a good golfer.
 

My best friend makes mega bucks in the medical industry and he plays with hospital ceo’s every week who have every excuse under the sun why they are 18 handicaps. Truth is they just don’t have the athleticism to achieve low handicap. 

 

For those who haven’t been around highly successful people, the vast majority of very successful people are narcissistic and couldn’t fathom being not good at everything so they make up excuses. 

The CFO of the hospital I referred too owns the course I play at and probably plays more than hes at the office lol.  He's a scratch or better if he'd post every score...Course he had lessons back as a younger player from the guy that was #2 to Jack Nicklaus at Ohio State.   

 

You still have to have the drive and will to get better. If you dont want to get better, you wont. If you dont have the discipline to get better despite wanting to, you definitely won't