Question For All The Other Single Digit Handicappers on Here

[DShepley]

10 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

One thing to keep in mind is that a single digit isnt that special when looking at the broader population. Of men that keep caps, 20% will get to singles. Which is equivalent to making your high school varsity team in the common sports. A 0-5 is closer to making to playing in college. 
 

On this sub forum you're going to a have a higher percentage of single digits than you will at any local course.

Yes, good point.  I also expect the members of this sub forum to be more likely to take lessons so the responses will be interesting. 

[DShepley]

9 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

LOL These three are still on my desk.  Hogan-Modern Fundamentals of Golf, Faldo-A Swing for Life, and Ballesteros-Natural Golf.  One of Nicklaus' books contributed, but years back misplaced it.

I like George Knudson's book "The Natural Golf Swing". It's a lesson in how to declutter...

[DShepley]

9 minutes ago, DLiver said:

Interesting discussion, despite the insistence of some people to repeatedly crap all over it (the instruction forum is def a bizarro place).

 

I played a lot as a kid, but never took any lessons (admittedly I was blessed with natural coordination). Once I went away to college, I pretty much stopped playing. Even then I was able to stay at <10 playing four or five times a year.

 

Fast forward 15 years, i joined a country club and decided to see how good I could get. I took a bunch of lessons from a lot of different pros and learned about the golf swing, and also learned how to take lessons. I spent a ton of time on the range, and within four years got to scratch. I had a nice, repeatable swing. But more importantly, I knew how I wanted to swing. With video, it was pretty easy to stay on track.

 

It is interesting to me how many of my friends have no idea how they want to swing. They just go to the range and look for a feel that will help them strike it solidly. These are all <7 indexes, so that works for them (to an extent).

 

As I've gotten older, it has become increasingly difficult to swing the club the way I want. That is a whole different kind of challenge.

 

To sum it up, I think trying to dig it out of the dirt is the long road. It works, but it take a ton of time combined with an awareness of what you are trying to do. Good lessons can definitely shorten process, if you know how to apply what you've learned.

The people crapping on it took offense to my idea that there might be more single digit handicap players in the world who got there on their own than the lesson tee created.

[BSI99]

Started the game as a kid. Played in middle school and highschool, got maybe 5 lessons total. Put the clubs down for a decade and picked them back up and went from a 10-3 last year. Started taking lessons again to try and get rid of some of the bad habits i've engraved and get down lower. I feel like getting to high single digits without any instruction is pretty doable, getting down to scratch or plus though would require a lot of natural talent.

[Pepperturbo]

4 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I like George Knudson's book "The Natural Golf Swing". It's a lesson in how to declutter...

We're all different.  I was fortunate to have the time due to my position and started with a Ping set off the shelf.  Also, having an uncle who played on the PGA Tour when I was a kid, helped.  When he heard I was taking up golf, he called with his tidbits.  One was after you have a decent swing, switch to blades, so I did just that. 

 

I've played blades most of the time since.  But to this day, when my swing gets cattywampus, I bring out 620 MBs and by the fourth hole, back in stride.  For me, that's been the best most stringent teaching tool I could ask for.

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, BSI99 said:

getting down to scratch or plus though would require a lot of natural talent.

Lessons help here though it's possible for people to get there on their own by paying attention to video, reading about the game and dedicating time and planning.  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

Thanks.  The point is, "How important were lessons in your journey to single digits vs other factors like the time you spent on the course or time spent digging it out yourself?" I expect that a lot of the good club players that people know, were on a path of desire and dedication to get there anyway.  I expect that starting from a solid base of coordination / athleticism and putting significant time in was a bigger factor than lessons. 

I was a decent recreational basketball, tennis, softball on occasion, player - could run, chew gum and think about girls at the same time.  
 

Getting real golf lessons was by far the biggest impetus for my improvement - athletic ability, if you want to call it that, allowed me to coordinate things such that I could play some good golf when stars aligned but breaking 80? Never on the radar screen until I had focused lessons - and they weren’t “intensive” as suggested they needed to be. 
 

My most significant gains have come with basketball and tennis well in the rear view. 

Edited June 17 by Hawkeye77

[DShepley]

7 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

We're all different.  I was fortunate to have the time due to my position and started with a Ping set off the shelf.  Also, having an uncle who played on the PGA Tour when I was a kid, helped.  When he heard I was taking up golf, he called with his tidbits.  One was after you have a decent swing, switch to blades, so I did just that. 

 

I've played blades most of the time since.  But to this day, when my swing gets cattywampus, I bring out 620 MBs and by the fourth hole, back in stride.  For me, that's been the best most stringent teaching tool I could ask for.

I learned with blades because I bought a used set to get started.  Currently playing Srixon ZX7 and they are the best irons I've ever had.  I don't like to look down at much offset or thick top lines.  I don't even like offset on my putter.

Edited June 17 by DShepley

[BSI99]

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

Lessons help here though it's possible for people to get there on their own by paying attention to video, reading about the game and dedicating time and planning.  

Oh ya lessons would speed it up, I just am saying I think a lot of people CAN get to single digits without them. I don't think a lot of people can get to plus without them.

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, BSI99 said:

Oh ya lessons would speed it up, I just am saying I think a lot of people CAN get to single digits without them. I don't think a lot of people can get to plus without them.

I think the time requirement to get to plus and the mental aptitude required is significant and a lot of single digit players could take lessons and still never get there.  The number of people in the world who break par with any regularity is a small pool.

[fred faldo]

8 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

We're all different.  I was fortunate to have the time due to my position and started with a Ping set off the shelf.  Also, having an uncle who played on the PGA Tour when I was a kid, helped.  When he heard I was taking up golf, he called with his tidbits.  One was after you have a decent swing, switch to blades, so I did just that. 

 

I've played blades most of the time since.  But to this day, when my swing gets cattywampus, I bring out 620 MBs and by the fourth hole, back in stride.  For me, that's been the best most stringent teaching tool I could ask for.

no bad choices in these books just have to find the one(s) that speak to you,, for me it is Jimmy Ballards How to Perfect Your Golf Swing. It has been my golf bible for 30 years

[tatertot]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I was a decent recreational basketball, tennis, softball on occasion, player - could run, chew gum and think about girls at the same time.  
 

Getting real golf lessons was by far the biggest impetus for my improvement - athletic ability, if you want to call it that, allowed me to coordinate things such that I could play some good golf when stars aligned but breaking 80? Never on the radar screen until I had focused lessons - and they weren’t “intensive” as suggested they needed to be. 
 

My most significant gains have come with basketball and tennis well in the rear view. 

I severed my patella tendon and broke my knee cap in half 14 years ago playing basketball ... played a little softball, racketball and pickle ball since then, but mostly concentrated on golf. I've lowered my handicap as I get older, but at 51, I think the apex is either approaching rapidly or I already passed it.

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, tatertot said:

I severed my patella tendon and broke my knee cap in half 14 years ago playing basketball ... played a little softball, racketball and pickle ball since then, but mostly concentrated on golf. I've lowered my handicap as I get older, but at 51, I think the apex is either approaching rapidly or I already passed it.

It’s not!!!! 
 

My biggest gains have been post 50, but pretty sure I was nowhere near your level so likely I picked a lot of low hanging fruit. 

[DShepley]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It’s not!!!! 
 

My biggest gains have been post 50, but pretty sure I was nowhere near your level so likely I picked a lot of low hanging fruit. 

My scoring average now at 48 is tighter than it was when I was at my lowest handicap level 20 years ago, with that I mean there is less volatility.  Aspects of my game are easier for me to improve, like short game, now even with playing and practicing less.  I think maybe as we get older we place less pressure on ourselves and perhaps the results come easier?  It's hard for me to explain, but I feel like I have a better chance at improving more quickly now, than 20 years ago. (caveat...I haven't started to lose distance yet, I'm still very active physically and have resisted the urge to ride in a golf cart which I think is a key to longevity in this game)

Edited June 17 by DShepley

[Pepperturbo]

12 minutes ago, fred faldo said:

no bad choices in these books just have to find the one(s) that speak to you,, for me it is Jimmy Ballards How to Perfect Your Golf Swing. It has been my golf bible for 30 years

I hear ya.... Hogan's Five Lessons is my golf bible.  🤪

[DShepley]

Just now, Pepperturbo said:

I hear ya.... Hogan's Five Lessons is my golf bible.

I found it in my shelf the other day and so far have resisted the urge to open it.  My game is in a good spot at the moment physically.  Mentally I could use some work so I'm planning to dig back in to some Rotella.  Of his books, 'Golf Is A Game Of Confidence' had the most influence on my game.  I self talked my way from the shanks to a Club Championship title with that one.  Every time someone asked me how my game was, I replied with 'It's great...things are going perfectly'.  There are limitations for sure, but you really do become what you think of yourself....After your round, pay no attention to the bad breaks and missed putts....celebrate the wins and they will happen more often.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

I'm not talking about being among the best in the world at something.  You don't need the 'best technique' to play golf to a single digit handicap and...single digit is a dream for a lot of people.  What I'm trying to determine is if there are other factors that contribute to people getting to single digit that are more of an influence than lessons.  I'm inclined to think that most single digit handicap players had a determination and committed to the time requirement to largely get their on their own and came from a background with a base of good coordination and athleticism.

 

I'm 5'7" tall, no amount of lessons are going to make me an all-start track and field athlete...there are physical attributes that contribute more to the success.

 

Single digit handicaps are around 15% of the golfing population. Again, only in golf would people thinking they're going to get better than 80%+ of people in the world most efficiently based on their own guess work. As covered in another topic, most of those who go that route will find their game and potentially their physical ability to play well disappear once their strength can no longer compensate from their self-taught inefficient technique. 

 

If you're really trying to determine if something other than lessons is a better route you need real data, not testimonials, especially not testimonials in a thread where you set the tone for the bias to be: self-taught good, lessons not needed. We have data for whether or not instruction is the fastest path to the best breadth of knowledge in almost all areas of life, and the answer is the combined lessons of decades or centuries of experience added to modern information gathering and analysis would be expected to on average be the source of better results. To be blunt, this thread is only one more example of if you find someone ignoring the science about learning, they're probably a golfer. 

 

As to your ask in the other reply of why some golfers try to self teach, there are many reasons, but that's not what this thread is about and I'm not really interested in having serious conversation on that tangent when odds are it won't go anywhere of use in here. If you want to start a genuine discussion on it perhaps. 

[Pepperturbo]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I found it in my shelf the other day and so far have resisted the urge to open it.  My game is in a good spot at the moment physically.  Mentally I could use some work so I'm planning to dig back in to some Rotella.  Of his books, 'Golf Is A Game Of Confidence' had the most influence on my game.  I self talked my way from the shanks to a Club Championship title with that one.  Every time someone asked me how my game was, I replied with 'It's great...things are going perfectly'.  There are limitations for sure, but you really do become what you think of yourself....After your round, pay no attention to the bad breaks and missed putts....celebrate the wins and they will happen more often.

Truth. 

 

When I walk off 18, I first review mistakes, move on to the best shots, and walk away the best on my mind.  Until the next game, I revisit over and over, the best shots as reminders.

 

If you've heard of Tony Robbins, he's a proponent of seeing yourself as who you want to be, believing it, then doing what's necessary to make it reality.  I've used him in the company, many times, over the years.

[MattC555]

43 and have been playing most of my life.  Swung my first club at maybe 3 or 4 years old.  Probably reached single digits as a 10th grader.  I recall taking 2 free group, high school provided, lessons at that point.  At the same time I had a Sam Snead book from my father and subscribed to Golf Digest.  Golf Digest probably did more bad than good - the tik tok of golf lessons in its day IMHO.  I think I had one more private lesson with the same teacher at some later point in high school.  From there I improved my game to 2-4hdc playing for a low level college team without any instruction.  Decided to take the game seriously again probably 6 years ago.  Went from an 8 to scratch over that time with two very helpful lessons, a lot of reading in these forums, and a 💩 ton of practice. 

 

Am I at my ceiling?  Probably not.  Would a great teacher giving me consistent lessons improve my game?  Almost certainly. 

 

My feeling is most actively playing 10-15 caps would be best served to take lessons, and take them seriously, if they want to break into the single digits.  It is truly the easiest way.  My advice to friends is to get lesson.  If they can't afford them, I tell them to only follow Monte, Dan Grieves, and maybe Padrig Harrington - nobody else.  There is so much terrible advice on the internet.  Those three I trust for myself and therefore recommend.            

Edited June 17 by MattC555

[Valtiel]

I got to an 8-10 as a junior essentially alone and it took guided instruction to get to 0, which along the way I supplemented with my own research and education so I could be a better student (and my own teacher somewhat). 

I can say unequivocally that I would have spent FAR less time at 8-10 had I gotten the instruction and leveled up my own understanding earlier. 8-10 was my ceiling until then. 

[DShepley]

10 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

I got to an 8-10 as a junior essentially alone and it took guided instruction to get to 0, which along the way I supplemented with my own research and education so I could be a better student (and my own teacher somewhat). 

I can say unequivocally that I would have spent FAR less time at 8-10 had I gotten the instruction and leveled up my own understanding earlier. 8-10 was my ceiling until then. 

What kept you from getting from 8-10 to a 5? When I look at my own game getting better than 5 was a level up, a plateau point.  For me 8-5 wasn't as much about skill as it was about mental approach limiting errors.  What I mean by that is that I didn't hit the ball much differently. Getting from 5 to 0, every aspect needed to improve because you can get away with fewer and fewer mistakes.

Edited June 17 by DShepley

[MattC555]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I am of the opinion that there are more single digit handicap players in the world who got there on there largely on their own than the lesson tee created.  You disagree.  Have a nice afternoon.

  

Well, yeah, probably.  I'm also of the opinion that there are far more golfers who largely haven't taken lessons.  And, that there would be far more single digit handicaps if every golfer took lessons with a reputable teacher.  

[DShepley]

12 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

43 and have been playing most of my life.  Swung my first club at maybe 3 or 4 years old.  Probably reached single digits as a 10th grader.  I recall taking 2 free group, high school provided, lessons at that point.  At the same time I had a Sam Snead book from my father and subscribed to Golf Digest.  Golf Digest probably did more bad than good - the tik tok of golf lessons in its day IMHO.  I think I had one more private lesson with the same teacher at some later point in high school.  From there I improved my game to 2-4hdc playing for a low level college team without any instruction.  Decided to take the game seriously again probably 6 years ago.  Went from an 8 to scratch over that time with two very helpful lessons, a lot of reading in these forums, and a 💩 ton of practice. 

 

Am I at my ceiling?  Probably not.  Would a great teacher giving me consistent lessons improve my game?  Almost certainly. 

 

My feeling is that most 10-15 caps that play a bunch would be best served to take lessons, and take them seriously, if they want to break into the single digits.  It is truly the easiest way.  My advice to friends is to get lesson.  If they can't afford them, I tell them to only follow Monte, Dan Grieves, and maybe Padrig Harrington - nobody else.  There is so much terrible advice on the internet.  Those three I trust for myself and therefore recommend.            

To get there on your own, you need to be able to recognize the conflicting advice and what will and won't work for you.  Thanks for the reply.

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, MattC555 said:

  

Well, yeah, probably.  I'm also of the opinion that there are far more golfers who largely haven't taken lessons.  And, that there would be far more single digit handicaps if every golfer took lessons with a reputable teacher.  

Possibly, but people are taking lessons with reputable teachers now and we don't have a great deal of single digit handicap players.  Apart from lessons, there are other requirements to get there, time, desire, physical ability....etc.

[MattC555]

Just now, DShepley said:

To get there on your own, you need to be able to recognize the conflicting advice and what will and won't work for you.  Thanks for the reply.

 

That's the rub right?  There is a lot of bad golf advice out there.  But finding the good stuff is worth it and will pay dividends.

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, MattC555 said:

 

That's the rub right?  There is a lot of bad golf advice out there.  But finding the good stuff is worth it and will pay dividends.

Totally agree and the 'good stuff' doesn't do to the work for you.

[MattC555]

Just now, DShepley said:

Totally agree and the 'good stuff' doesn't do to the work for you.

 

There is no free ride in golf.  You have to put the time in.  Time and effort on your swing matters most, but you still need to develop/practice/understand the short and mental games.  It is a lifelong endeavor for myself.     

[parbung]

40 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I found it in my shelf the other day and so far have resisted the urge to open it.  My game is in a good spot at the moment physically.  Mentally I could use some work so I'm planning to dig back in to some Rotella.  Of his books, 'Golf Is A Game Of Confidence' had the most influence on my game.  I self talked my way from the shanks to a Club Championship title with that one.  Every time someone asked me how my game was, I replied with 'It's great...things are going perfectly'.  There are limitations for sure, but you really do become what you think of yourself....After your round, pay no attention to the bad breaks and missed putts....celebrate the wins and they will happen more often.

 

not even joking. Golf is Not a Game of Perfect changed my life both on and off the course. 

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, MattC555 said:

 

There is no free ride in golf.  You have to put the time in.  Time and effort on your swing matters most, but you still need to develop/practice/understand the short and mental games.  It is a lifelong endeavor for myself.     

Myself as well.  I don't know that I would trade my path though in regards between the balance of play and practice.  I may have got to my current level quicker with lessons but I was a 5 handicap 3 seasons after I picked a club up, I'm inclined to think that I would have got there through determination and my curious nature anyway.  You hit the nail on the head with 'time and effort'.  That is the limitation, much more so than lessons I think, or at least in my case.

[Valtiel]

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

What kept you from getting from 8-10 to a 5? When I look at my own game getting better than 5 was a level up, a plateau point.  For me 8-5 wasn't as much about skill as it was about mental approach limiting errors.  What I mean by that is that I didn't hit the ball much differently. Getting from 5 to 0, every aspect needed to improve.

My mechanics were held together by sheer hand-eye coordination that I needed to establish by hitting at least 50-75 balls on the range prior to teeing off. Everything I was doing was a series of compensations due to bad fundamentals, so I was stuck at 8-10 because of blow up holes. Out of bounds tee shots and poor approaches mainly leading to more double and triples. These days I can roll up to a course after not touching a club for 6 months, hit a small bucket, and shoot 75 because the blow ups are far more rare due to decent repeatable mechanics. Instruction helped identify those and my own work keep me focused on my tendencies and what I need to feel when things are "off*.