Understanding shoulder plane.

[electrical123]

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Why is a flat shoulder plane in the backswing a big no no.  My thought is, wouldn’t it be easier to shallow the club on the downswing?

 

I struggle with a flat shoulder plane but can’t wrap my head around getting steep with the shoulders then on the downswing getting shallow?

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Why is a flat shoulder plane in the backswing a big no no.  My thought is, wouldn’t it be easier to shallow the club on the downswing?

 

I struggle with a flat shoulder plane but can’t wrap my head around getting steep with the shoulders then on the downswing getting shallow?

Stuart Appleby used to put it simply: if it doesn't need to move, don't move it. If you're turning your shoulders too flat then you're coming out of your spine angle. That means you have to get back into it to hit the ball. A flat shoulder plane also makes it much easier to over-rotate and get too deep. 

 

One of the best ways to improve an overswing is to learn to stay in your spine angle better. It's much harder to make a false turn if you rotate around your spine angle in the backswing. 

[getitdaily]

The arms swing up and down and the body turns.

 

The flatter the shoulder plane, the more the arms want to swing around rather than up and down. 

[DShepley]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

The arms swing up and down and the body turns.

 

The flatter the shoulder plane, the more the arms want to swing around rather than up and down. 

In the Jim Hardy world, the matchup for a flat shoulder turn is an upright, arms driven swing with the arms working above the plane of the shoulders.  The release has the arms swinging the club past the body.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

In the Jim Hardy world, the matchup for a flat shoulder turn is an upright, arms driven swing with the arms working above the plane of the shoulders.  The release has the arms swinging the club past the body.

Would you say that Jim Hardy's world is relevant to the real world?

[getitdaily]

Just now, DShepley said:

In the Jim Hardy world, the matchup for a flat shoulder turn is an upright, arms driven swing with the arms working above the plane of the shoulders.  The release has the arms swinging the club past the body.

Yeah, you can match things up, just requires more effort and runs yhe risk of someone just lifting the arms.

 

Just like a more steep shoilder plane at address doesn't prevent an inside takeaway. 

[DShepley]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Yeah, you can match things up, just requires more effort and runs yhe risk of someone just lifting the arms.

 

Just like a more steep shoilder plane at address doesn't prevent an inside takeaway. 

I agree, shoulder plane is important to get right, there are matchups that work with it though.  People can overdo the steep by divebombing their left shoulder towards the ball as well which isn't ideal.  The balance is that, 'if your shoulders turn flat, your arms need to be steep'

Edited July 7 by DShepley

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

I agree, shoulder plane is important to get right, there are matchups that work with it though.  People can overdo the steep by divebombing their left shoulder towards the ball as well which isn't ideal.

How many people do you see dive bomb the left shoulder towards the ball?

 

 

Edited July 7 by GoGoErky

[coops]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I would say that he has helped more people improve at golf than you have.

 

The problem is the phrase “lawnmower move”.

 

Jim McLean also has no doubt helped many… but “x factor” 

[DShepley]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

How many people do you see dive bomb the left shoulder towards the ball?

 

 

The AMG guys see it quite a bit.  People thinking that their shoulder line should point at the ball.  

 

[DShepley]

8 minutes ago, coops said:

 

The problem is the phrase “lawnmower move”.

 

Jim McLean also has no doubt helped many… but “x factor” 

Yes, we can throw the 'lawnmower move' in the BUNK pile.  The contribution that good swings are a balance of steep and shallow elements is gold though.

[TheDeanAbides]

25 minutes ago, coops said:

 

The problem is the phrase “lawnmower move”.

 

Jim McLean also has no doubt helped many… but “x factor” 

Unfortunately, I couldn't quote him directly because that comment has been removed. 

[GoGoErky]

19 minutes ago, DShepley said:

The AMG guys see it quite a bit.  People thinking that their shoulder line should point at the ball.  

 

Can you point to the timestamp where they talk about seeing a lot of amateurs dive bombing the left shoulder because of a flat shoulder turn?

 

I didnt hear them talk about that at all. It was all about contouring the trail side or right shoulder 

[rsballer10]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Stuart Appleby used to put it simply: if it doesn't need to move, don't move it. If you're turning your shoulders too flat then you're coming out of your spine angle. That means you have to get back into it to hit the ball. A flat shoulder plane also makes it much easier to over-rotate and get too deep. 

 

One of the best ways to improve an overswing is to learn to stay in your spine angle better. It's much harder to make a false turn if you rotate around your spine angle in the backswing. 

This - I'd add it also is usually a sign of a golfer not using their spine/shoulders properly in the swing. Very hard to swing efficiently without having t-spine extension and enough external rotation in the trail shoulder in the back swing.

[joedizzy1978]

10 hours ago, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Why is a flat shoulder plane in the backswing a big no no.  My thought is, wouldn’t it be easier to shallow the club on the downswing?

 

I struggle with a flat shoulder plane but can’t wrap my head around getting steep with the shoulders then on the downswing getting shallow?

Flat and steep both being relative terms, youd have to reference the amount of forward bend at address to determine if you are one or the other.  Hogan had the ability to stand fairly upright at address and his shoulder reference points in his backswing appear to move at right angles to his forward bend.  As such, with the amount of forward bend being the point of reference, his shoulder plane should not be characterized as flat or steep.  As for yours, without photos, videos or your point of reference, "flat" is a nearly impossible discussion.  

[electrical123]

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

Yes, we can throw the 'lawnmower move' in the BUNK pile.  The contribution that good swings are a balance of steep and shallow elements is gold though.

Steep backswing going to a shallow downswing?

[PedronNiall]

10 hours ago, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Why is a flat shoulder plane in the backswing a big no no.  My thought is, wouldn’t it be easier to shallow the club on the downswing?

 

I struggle with a flat shoulder plane but can’t wrap my head around getting steep with the shoulders then on the downswing getting shallow?

 

Counterintuitively, a super flat turn can and usually does make you get steeper into the ball because your body is trying to regain spine tilt and your head knows you're too shallow to catch the ball before the ground, so everything tends towards a very strong correction of getting steep to try and address both issues. Further, not only can you not make a good shallowing move when you're already shallow, but you also put the club in a position where the small but active force of gravity is able to try and help the club onto an even worse plane during the entirety of the swing.

 

Lots and lots and lots of ways mentioned in this thread that a flat turn can cause problems, and there's nothing to really be gained from it in terms of efficiency. Keep in mind a standard turn isn't contrived. As @TheDeanAbides mentioned from the start, it's a simple matter of how the upper body should turn anyway to maintain spine tilt as you turn back.

 

Impact is not the same as address. Around impact the pelvis is open to the target, approaching 90° from where it started, while the hands are on the trail side of the body, about where the center of the pelvis pointed at address. Here again, the position isn't contrived, but the lower body leads the downswing, the upper body trails behind, and good sequencing reflects the changes in orientation needed to allow for a good strike.

 

Short addressing of your first question: how can you more easily shallow a club that's already shallow? You're instead trying to keep it from dropping even lower, and usually that ends with compensation too far in the other direction.

[Nard_S]

Shoulder plane on back swing is less steep than down swing plane. There's proof that is how most all top swings perform and they all do it within a couple of degrees of variance.

[g_swell]

17 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Shoulder plane on back swing is less steep than down swing plane. There's proof that is how most all top swings perform and they all do it within a couple of degrees of variance.

Yep I agree. That’s about the only thing I concentrate on is downswing shoulder plane

[coops]

17 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Shoulder plane on back swing is less steep than down swing plane. There's proof that is how most all top swings perform and they all do it within a couple of degrees of variance.

 

Curious where the shoulder plane was measured in reference to.

I mean - is it steeper relative to the spine angle, or something else? Wondering if a slight increase in side bend (more spine tilt away from target) in downswing may be the reason - rather than some shoulder manipulation or effort.

[sundaypins]

On 7/7/2025 at 1:13 AM, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Understanding our shoulders are wider within 3D space than they are deep is a good first step. 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, coops said:

 

Curious where the shoulder plane was measured in reference to.

I mean - is it steeper relative to the spine angle, or something else? Wondering if a slight increase in side bend (more spine tilt away from target) in downswing may be the reason - rather than some shoulder manipulation or effort.

This is a great video on this To 1st point, measured in relation to target line. To 2nd. There is certainly a crunch of angles happening on down swing, things gain more flex, a guy like Rory drops his head for instance due to changes so I believe your suspicion is correct & valid but the net is shoulders are steeper by measurable degrees and it's remarkable how uniform the numbers are in tour level swings. Video helped me a lot, was over doing back swing angle to bad outcomes.

 

 

[PedronNiall]

On 7/7/2025 at 1:13 AM, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

Why is a flat shoulder plane in the backswing a big no no.  My thought is, wouldn’t it be easier to shallow the club on the downswing?

 

I struggle with a flat shoulder plane but can’t wrap my head around getting steep with the shoulders then on the downswing getting shallow?

 

 

Probably should have thrown this in with the initial response, but the video below is probably the best explainer on why flat shoulder turns/planes don't aid in shallowing.

 

 

 

Trying to stay shallow via the shoulders in order to make shallowing of the club easier later on doesn't work because the major lifting and lowering of the club occurs via the arms. If you try and turn flat with the shoulders, then lifting with the arms puts the hands and club dramatically outside of the body, if you even manage to get beyond simply doing an inside takeaway because of how much harder the club becomes to raise from that path. 

 

I've made some swings trying to get the shoulders flatter and adding more than a sprinkle of flatness makes the club noticeably resistant to lifting and it wants to create a textbook inside takeaway. The normal range for the shoulder plane measured for hundreds of elite golfers works to both maintain spine tilt and to aid the arms in lifting the club by keeping them in an advantageous orientation while they lift and lower the club. Even most ams I can think of on 3D don't stray into the territory you're mentioning unless they're super inside. 

 

Going to guess all of this is from tooling around on your own because a lesson with anyone competent would have never let you get this far into the weeds. Good to be curious, but if you have someone showing you the right things you won't go chasing harmful ideas like flat shoulder turns. 

 

Genuine curiosity: does it feel okay in any way on your body trying to do it? Mine screams at me that it's no bueno. 

[Valtiel]

On 7/7/2025 at 1:13 AM, electrical123 said:

I’m still trying to get my head around shoulder plane.

 

On 7/7/2025 at 4:58 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

One of the best ways to improve an overswing is to learn to stay in your spine angle better. 

This IMO is the thing to truly get your head around; the moving pieces that allow you to rotate in this tilted fashion like the pros do. Our brain hates it (being upright/straighter is easier to balance and generate power) and our lower bodies tend to fight it (pushing your hips forward is easier, but it straightens spine angle). Therefore you have two big intuitive feeling things that screw you up and get you turning flatter. Why this matters @electrical123 is covered by what @TheDeanAbides and @PedronNiall said above. For your shoulders to be "flat", which we'll assume is relative to the angle they started at address, then that means you had to have also lost some spine angle too. To put some numbers to it for illustrative purposes...if at address you had 30* of spine tilt and then at the top of your swing your shoulders were completely flat (parallel to the ground) then the entire orientation of your upper body as shifted from being pointed down at the ground to several feet up in the air. If you rotated from that position without compensation you'd come far closer to hitting a little league tee ball, so compensations are needed to hit a ball down on the ground. Some people dump their trail shoulder and tilt backwards, some people throw their arms down at the ground, and some will try to regain that tilt in the downswing. All of these things are extra moving parts that need to be timed, making the downswing more difficult and less consistent. 

When you learn to rotate while staying oriented towards the ground via proper pelvic and shoulder rotation, those compensations reduce or even disappear, making things easier and more consistent. This is tough though as it involves learning both how to keep your shoulders and arms connected in the backswing and how to properly rotate your pelvis to avoid forcing yourself out of that spine tilt. 

[Nard_S]

Freeze it at 10 sec, P4, freeze at 16 sec, P8. Great guideline to work by.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

So much of the swing is counterintuitive because people mistake reactions for actions.

 

 Hypothetical.  You turn your shoulders so flat they are level to the ground at the top,  You are literally aiming at a spot 4 feet in the air and would have to MASSIVELY steepen to hit the ball on the ground.

 

So if you turn your shoulders say….10* flat, then you would need a requisite steepening move to not swing 3-6” above the ball because that’s where you’re pointed. 

 

Hogan was forced to stand upright, because in Ken Venturi’s words to me, “Ben could tie his shoe laces without bending over.  Monte, your arms are short for your height, anyone teaching you to swing like Ben is an idiot.”

[CoreyW1369]

On 7/8/2025 at 7:37 AM, Nard_S said:

This is a great video on this To 1st point, measured in relation to target line. To 2nd. There is certainly a crunch of angles happening on down swing, things gain more flex, a guy like Rory drops his head for instance due to changes so I believe your suspicion is correct & valid but the net is shoulders are steeper by measurable degrees and it's remarkable how uniform the numbers are in tour level swings. Video helped me a lot, was over doing back swing angle to bad outcomes.

 

 

 

I really can't take much of Hanson, but the drill at 11:00 minutes is spot on. The feeling and even the angular gaze of the follow through with head on the wall is a very unique sensation (for me). I can recreate this decently with wedges - longer clubs, not so much. 

[Nard_S]

5 minutes ago, CoreyW1369 said:

 

I really can't take much of Hanson, but the drill at 11:00 minutes is spot on. The feeling and even the angular gaze of the follow through with head on the wall is a very unique sensation (for me). I can recreate this decently with wedges - longer clubs, not so much. 

It's a solid map of where you need to go plane wise and without it, entire swing from transition on, will circle toilet of poor path and bottoming. Been there. I was in a long rut before i saw that video, being too steep at P4 messed me up for a long time.This is an easy fix. But all it does is free you up to fix the rest to better outcomes. So lot of sausage left to be made. For me at least, it opened door to much better progress.