The Way

[sundaypins]

20 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

The measure of improvement is to step up to the ball, visualize the shot, then manifest the vision.

 

Forget he came, he saw, he conquered.  Employ he saw, he came, he conquered.   Seeing first affects everything else down the procedure list, like stepping up, or settling in. 

[KD1]

1 hour ago, sundaypins said:

 

Forget he came, he saw, he conquered.  Employ he saw, he came, he conquered.   Seeing first affects everything else down the procedure list, like stepping up, or settling in. 

In the quiet words of the virgin mary... come again?

[NosajNeelik]

14 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I’m not sure that will work except at veeeeeeery slow speed. I would argue that there’s little value in doing something in practice that you don’t ever want to do in a real swing. 

Tons of benefit from doing things in practice you don’t ever want to do. Exaggeration, slo motion all known ways to improve a motion. Hitting bunker shots with a 5 iron is a tremendous way to improve bunker technique although you’d never do that unless you were in a 3 club challenge or something, or making a bet. 

[NosajNeelik]

8 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

There is nothing simple with golf. You can practice all you want and still not improve.  

You’re talking about scoring, not swinging the golf club which has already been stated as the first goal of The Way. 

Edited July 10 by NosajNeelik

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, NosajNeelik said:

Tons of benefit from doing things in practice you don’t ever want to do. Exaggeration, slo motion all known ways to improve a motion. Hitting bunker shots with a 5 iron is a tremendous way to improve bunker technique although you’d never do that unless you were in a 3 club challenge or something, or making a bet. 

I don't think you're getting me. Exaggerations are great, but not during impact and beyond. That shouldn't be something we're trying to control, IMO. I love exaggerations for backswing and transition, but the less we think about and try and control impact the better. 

 

Edit: I'm not suggesting that I am absolutely correct on this. It's just my opinion. :)

Edited July 10 by TheDeanAbides

[RayPlan]

16 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I don't think you're getting me. Exaggerations are great, but not during impact and beyond. That shouldn't be something we're trying to control, IMO. I love exaggerations for backswing and transition, but the less we think about and try and control impact the better. 

 

Edit: I'm not suggesting that I am absolutely correct on this. It's just my opinion. 🙂

I wouldn't necessarily call it an exaggeration. Soon, I'll post up a video of the drill I'm working on right now, which I think will provide clarity. 

[TheDeanAbides]

10 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I wouldn't necessarily call it an exaggeration. Soon, I'll post up a video of the drill I'm working on right now, which I think will provide clarity. 

I was referring to @NosajNeelik talking about exaggerations rather than you specifically doing them. Again, just my thoughts and opinion. Not gospel. 

[Riga]

On 7/8/2025 at 6:55 PM, RayPlan said:

Anyone who saw my first swing thread knows that I had some issues going down rabbit holes and losing my way.

 

Since then, I've learned a lot, and I've discovered an approach that may be the key to unlocking the entire golf swing. 

 

It boils down to this: the point after impact, about P7.5, is where the clubhead is furthest from the body. If you have the club in the right orientation at that point, you can work backwards to trace the necessary club orientation through impact, back to P6, the final gateway of control before impact. P7.5 is the key reference point. Since there are limited ways you can get to the desired orientation at P7.5, this creates a sort of funnel for the swing. A funnel has some forgiveness, the entrance can be tightened up over time as the movements become more precise. 

 

This may be the solution to the problem of improving mechanics while also being able to play by feel. 

 

Comparison of October 2024 vs. June 2025

 

My swing has been improving as I've developed these ideas, but it's still a ways off from where it could be. I'll be sharing my journey here and providing more on the underlying ideas, which I'm happy to discuss and answer questions.

This is complicated or simple as you want to make it.  I would do 100,000 continuous motion swings with every permutation and just swing the clubhead.

 

[Brokensticks]

Ray, would you say this is a change that is your ”new swing” or does it involve alot of conscious effort?

[RayPlan]

I've made two videos demonstrating the concept of the P7.5 Reference Point and a my first attempt at a drill for working backwards (and forwards) from that point.

 

So the first part is to get into impact position, weight on the front foot, then from there, move the club to the P7.5 Reference Point. The key is that the arms should both be straight at the Reference Point, and the wrists should be neutral (not flexed or extended). 

 

Once the Reference Point is found, that's where the drill starts. Like I outlined earlier in the thread, it's about working backwards, then taking small, repeated swings. The purpose is to get a feel for the proper movement and hitting a consistent low point, just brushing the grass. That will take some reps, and this is just my first attempt. This is mostly arms at this point.

 

 

 

The other key thing is that the swings back should be like the swing is playing in reverse, and not like a normal backswing. 

 

The P6 to P7.5 portion of my swing has been the most opaque to me -- it happens so quickly that I've never really been able to tell what happens in that small fraction of a second. This drill provides a window into that, and a pattern that I should be able to adapt into fuller swings.

 

Also, sorry for the video not actually showing the clubhead at P7.5 in the FO.

 

Edited July 10 by RayPlan
Added detail about weight distribution, plus apology for FO view cutting off the clubhead, which I didn't notice until after recording.

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, Brokensticks said:

Ray, would you say this is a change that is your ”new swing” or does it involve alot of conscious effort?

The video comparison in the OP showed my improvements before starting with this new methodology.

 

The point I had reached didn't require an excessive amount of conscious effort. Not any more conscious effort than whatever I was doing in the "before."

[joedizzy1978]

10 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

The video comparison in the OP showed my improvements before starting with this new methodology.

 

The point I had reached didn't require an excessive amount of conscious effort. Not any more conscious effort than whatever I was doing in the "before."

Probably wont say much until youre much further along in the process.    Just be prepared to face a healthy amount of detraction relative to the amount of support.  If you stick with it though, you’ll likely gain a healthy amount of personal understanding.

[NosajNeelik]

10 minutes ago, joedizzy1978 said:

Probably wont say much until youre much further along in the process.    Just be prepared to face a healthy amount of detraction relative to the amount of support.  If you stick with it though, you’ll likely gain a healthy amount of personal understanding.

LOL

[RayPlan]

45 minutes ago, joedizzy1978 said:

Probably wont say much until youre much further along in the process.    Just be prepared to face a healthy amount of detraction relative to the amount of support.  If you stick with it though, you’ll likely gain a healthy amount of personal understanding.

You make it sound like you expect a parade of haters to come through here. I haven't seen any sign of that. I'm more of an optimist, anyway.

[RayPlan]

Another key thing with that drill: when making the small swings, you can see the clubhead coming into impact and squaring up. If it's not, them you can adjust and figure out why. 

 

People talk about they wish they could just hit the ball with their practice swing. Practicing this a lot should help merge the practice swings and real swing together.

[TheDeanAbides]

11 hours ago, RayPlan said:

I've made two videos demonstrating the concept of the P7.5 Reference Point and a my first attempt at a drill for working backwards (and forwards) from that point.

 

So the first part is to get into impact position, weight on the front foot, then from there, move the club to the P7.5 Reference Point. The key is that the arms should both be straight at the Reference Point, and the wrists should be neutral (not flexed or extended). 

 

Once the Reference Point is found, that's where the drill starts. Like I outlined earlier in the thread, it's about working backwards, then taking small, repeated swings. The purpose is to get a feel for the proper movement and hitting a consistent low point, just brushing the grass. That will take some reps, and this is just my first attempt. This is mostly arms at this point.

 

 

 

The other key thing is that the swings back should be like the swing is playing in reverse, and not like a normal backswing. 

 

The P6 to P7.5 portion of my swing has been the most opaque to me -- it happens so quickly that I've never really been able to tell what happens in that small fraction of a second. This drill provides a window into that, and a pattern that I should be able to adapt into fuller swings.

 

Also, sorry for the video not actually showing the clubhead at P7.5 in the FO.

 

I'm not a fan of impact drills, but I know lots of people find this helpful, so I'll be following with interest, Ray. I hope it works for you. 

[RayPlan]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm not a fan of impact drills, but I know lots of people find this helpful, so I'll be following with interest, Ray. I hope it works for you. 

This drill is well-vetted. Needless to say, I didn't invent it.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, RayPlan said:

This drill is well-vetted. Needless to say, I didn't invent it.

I getcha. 

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm not a fan of impact drills, but I know lots of people find this helpful, so I'll be following with interest, Ray. I hope it works for you. 

Trying to contort into a static impact position (which one could question whether it is a good impact position) is one issue. 
 

Then ….. why chase impact to P whatever? And chase it with some armsy stiff arm waggles that really shouldn’t be what you want your “look” or IMO motion to be? It looks like it’s just contributing to a backswing motion that is all over the place which if it’s not correct in the context of a drill may cause more problems then it will solve. The DTL looks a bit awkward and the club is all over the place. 

[GoGoErky]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Trying to contort into a static impact position (which one could question whether it is a good impact position) is one issue. 
 

Then ….. why chase impact to P whatever? And chase it with some armsy stiff arm waggles that really shouldn’t be what you want your “look” or IMO motion to be? It looks like it’s just contributing to a backswing motion that is all over the place which if it’s not correct in the context of a drill may cause more problems then it will solve. The DTL looks a bit awkward and the club is all over the place. 

Yeah and typically when these impact those drills are done you don’t stay on the impact position when the club moves back. It’s supposed to be more of a fluid motion rather than static body and arms swinging.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

I’m gonna trust The Boss on this one.

[RayPlan]

22 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Trying to contort into a static impact position (which one could question whether it is a good impact position) is one issue. 
 

Then ….. why chase impact to P whatever? And chase it with some armsy stiff arm waggles that really shouldn’t be what you want your “look” or IMO motion to be? It looks like it’s just contributing to a backswing motion that is all over the place which if it’s not correct in the context of a drill may cause more problems then it will solve. The DTL looks a bit awkward and the club is all over the place. 

Thanks, I'll take that into account. All feedback is useful in my journey.

[RayPlan]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I’m gonna trust The Boss on this one.

You'd never know Springsteen was a big golf guy. I was certainly surprised

[MK7Golf21]

11 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Yeah and typically when these impact those drills are done you don’t stay on the impact position when the club moves back. It’s supposed to be more of a fluid motion rather than static body and arms swinging.

 

 

You get into the desired impact position and then give the club a little momentum to actually hit a ball. Body will probably move a little bit but not much movement. Idea is to just make contact with that impact position to get the feel.
 

The problem is, your swing goes back to what it normally does as it is lengthened. I think impact drills do help with hitting the ball solid though if you have been struggling with impact/low point. Kind of like just hitting punch shots for a while to find the bottom. 

[GoGoErky]

17 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

You get into the desired impact position and then give the club a little momentum to actually hit a ball. Body will probably move a little bit but not much movement. Idea is to just make contact with that impact position to get the feel.

Agree and when watching ray’s videos it’s just the arms swinging back and forth. 

 

17 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

The problem is, your swing goes back to what it normally does as it is lengthened. I think impact drills do help with hitting the ball solid though if you have been struggling with impact/low point. Kind of like just hitting punch shots for a while to find the bottom.

Agree here too which is why I’m a fan of the club starting and p8 then swinging back from there.

 

im curious what @iacas or @MonteScheinblum think about using p7.5 as a starting point. I don’t recall seeing that position used by instructors 

[TheDeanAbides]

31 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

You'd never know Springsteen was a big golf guy. I was certainly surprised

[virtuoso]

Neo might be getting a bit over his skis here.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

im curious what @iacas or @MonteScheinblum think about using p7.5 as a starting point. I don’t recall seeing that position used by instructors 

 

Generally not a fan. I will use it as a backswing thing, like starting with the clubhead 3' out and letting that build momentum for the chest to turn back.

 

I don't see much point in the drills in the videos posted. The odds of arriving at the P6 or P6.5 to achieve the shown P7.5 (if that's even good or where you actually are at P7.5) are incredibly small. I rarely teach much stuff from even P5 to P7. It's almost all a result. The only things of the top of my head are… a little of the "roll" that happens later in the downswing and the "jumping" from the lead leg which still actually begins before P5, but which players often won't feel until later. What you've set in motion at P5 is pretty much going to determine how you hit the ball.

 

That's not to say that having an intent of "finish with your hands higher" or "feel the clubhead exiting low left" or whatever won't change stuff during the downswing, and that's why I'm not fully out on something like this, but I'm mostly out.

[jonsnow]

56 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Neo might be getting a bit over his skis here.

[Valtiel]

58 minutes ago, iacas said:

What you've set in motion at P5 is pretty much going to determine how you hit the ball.

I think no matter what anyone claims to feel, this is kinda the universal truth of what is actually happening, or at least "when". And obviously what you've set in motion at P5 is then based upon what you setup getting to P5 etc etc. Basically everything coming back to how you transition.

Like when Tiger talked about changing trajectory via changing his follow-through position....obviously the intent behind the finishing position is reordering something earlier in the swing that he either doesn't need to think about or doesn't care to talk about for the sake of brevity. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a pro's shorthand account of what they feel was misleading, even if true for them. Bottom line IMO is that any "epiphany" that comes from focusing on something late in the swing runs the risk of having a very short half-life in terms of effectiveness. Inevitably under pressure you're going to hit a bad shot that thinking about P7.5 isn't going to solve, or worse is going to lead you down a bad road. If however @RayPlan the focus on that position is a starting point that leads you to greater understanding as you work backwards from there then cool, just know that there is no oil after impact....you always have to drill deeper. 

Edited July 11 by Valtiel