The Way

[PedronNiall]

On 7/8/2025 at 6:55 PM, RayPlan said:

Since then, I've learned a lot, and I've discovered an approach that may be the key to unlocking the entire golf swing for me.

 

FTFY.

 

Trying to present this thread as the missing piece for all or even a large number of golfers is where it went off the rails from the start. 

 

100% can see improvement in your swing from where you began. Keep in mind, though, that your way does not necessarily indicate "The Way".

 

On 7/8/2025 at 6:55 PM, RayPlan said:

Since there are limited ways you can get to the desired orientation at P7.5, this creates a sort of funnel for the swing. A funnel has some forgiveness, the entrance can be tightened up over time as the movements become more precise. 

 

Most golfers already have a pretty sizeable funnel. Anyone with natural athletic ability, very good hand eye coordination, or both, can already play the game of funneling the club from a number of iffy orientations at P4 into something approaching a good strike at P7 a good bit of the time. We know most people's brains already do a very good job of understanding what needs to occur at impact, hence things like real swing speeds not matching practice swings because the brain knows when the club is going as fast as it can and still stay in an orientation that will produce something like a center face strike and send the ball mostly where it's supposed to go. The biggest problem is in teaching the brain the non-intuitive parts between address and the top of the swing so that it can most efficiently do the part it understands in moving the club from wherever it is at P4 to P7, all of which is a result of what came before. 

 

This thread is neck deep in golf mysticism territory. As what you posted works for you it certainly has merit for you, but everything about it is going to set most golfers on a long, hard road of pain and suffering. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11 by PedronNiall

[MonteScheinblum]

Two issues.  
 

1.  The more data that comes out, the more it shows similarities in backswings and the more it shows impact variation.  How much shaft lean, how much side bend, how much hip rotation, how much upper/lower body separation, etc., all vary great from golfer to golfer.

 

A 75 year old golfer who has a ceiling on 60 mph with 7 iron better not lean the shaft or he won’t get the ball in the air.  
 

2.  Let’s say there was a “perfect” impact for all.  If I could snap my fingers and get everyone getting there with their current setup and swing, 💯 would hit it worse than they do now.

 

Bonus issue 3. There is some small validity to the theory if you know where you’re trying to get to, you will make requisite change to get there.  The issue here is some of the important issues don’t do that and you end up with issue #2 again.

 

This theory has been tried for 100 years and continues today and it’s essentially never successful.  It’s why cheating by starting at a good impact at address, starting at a good top of the swing, etc., ideas have never taken hold.  They don’t work.

 

Golfers and teachers have tried to cheat the swing for 100 years and it always fails.  There’s a reason that when you look at good golf swings post hickory, they look just like good swings today….minus the small change in the cheat of the month club you see in every era.

 

Driving knees of 60’s and 70’s

Restricted hip turn of 90’s and 2000’s

Excess side bend and starting hip turn before end of backswing of today

 

Every time someone of note invents some 🐂 💩, that becomes a trend that you d golfers who can perform it gives credibility.  The public tries it, hurts themselves and fails and we get right back to what’s been a good swing for the last 100 years and u deratdn yiu can’t cheat it.

 

Start with a decent setup and work on proper sequencing of the initial takeaway, which is moving the club head first by hinging, not a one piece takeaway. 😜. Getting left at the end of the backswing, not the beginning of the downswing…which is not bunk.😜😜😜

 

Then analyze if you’re still going wrong and fix that.

[sundaypins]

50 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

The biggest problem is in teaching the brain the non-intuitive parts between address and the top of the swing so that it can most efficiently do the part it understands in moving the club from wherever it is at P4 to P7, all of which is a result of what came before. 

 

@RayPlan  Nothing wrong at all working post impact.   The biggest problem is in teaching the brain the non-intuitive parts between impact and finish so that it can most efficiently do the part it understands in moving the club not from wherever impact is but from dead flush to the finish, all of which is a result of what came before.   Not suggesting abandoning your efforts but wanted you to have a look here:

 

 

Edited July 11 by sundaypins

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

...There is some small validity to the theory if you know where you’re trying to get to, you will make requisite change to get there.  

 

...It’s why cheating by starting at a good impact at address, starting at a good top of the swing, etc., ideas have never taken hold.  They don’t work.

 

Definitely found a correlation there though e.g. the common presetting shaft of lean and putting the ball back to "try to get where you're going" via cheating. 

Edited July 11 by Valtiel

[Nels55]

On 7/9/2025 at 5:14 PM, RayPlan said:

The measure of improvement is to step up to the ball, visualize the shot, then manifest the vision. The manifestation will never be perfect, but it will be better more often with focused practice.

 

The rest follows naturally from that simple concept. 

I suggest that you visualize the shot before you step up to the ball.

[NosajNeelik]

11 hours ago, RayPlan said:

You'd never know Springsteen was a big golf guy. I was certainly surprised

The album was originally called Augusta. 
 

But the record label guys wanted it grittier in black and white so we got Nebraska 

[RayPlan]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

If however @RayPlan the focus on that position is a starting point that leads you to greater understanding as you work backwards from there then cool

This is the main thing right now. 

 

 

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Bonus issue 3. There is some small validity to the theory if you know where you’re trying to get to, you will make requisite change to get there. 

Thanks Monte. That's the main idea, not some kind of perfect impact position. I've hard a hard time figuring out how to move my hands and arms properly to P6, then through impact. 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

36 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

This is the main thing right now. 

 

 

Thanks Monte. That's the main idea, not some kind of perfect impact position. I've hard a hard time figuring out how to move my hands and arms properly to P6, then through impact. 

 

 

All good as long as you know what movements aren’t allowing you to get there and that’s the focus.

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

This is the main thing right now. 

 

 

Thanks Monte. That's the main idea, not some kind of perfect impact position. I've hard a hard time figuring out how to move my hands and arms properly to P6, then through impact. 

 

Case in point, this from June 13.

 

[PedronNiall]

9 hours ago, sundaypins said:

 

@RayPlan  Nothing wrong at all working post impact.   The biggest problem is in teaching the brain the non-intuitive parts between impact and finish so that it can most efficiently do the part it understands in moving the club not from wherever impact is but from dead flush to the finish, all of which is a result of what came before.   Not suggesting abandoning your efforts but wanted you to have a look here:

 

 

 

Interested to see those linear velocity plots of pros "accelerating to the finish" and all the speed they're "creating after the ball" he mentions. Sounds inefficient but wouldn't mind seeing the data. 

[golferdude54]

I think you may be suffering from Posting Multiple Threads Of Your Swing Like A Wh*re Disorder. P.M.T.O.Y.S.L.A.W.D. is no joke, hope you can find help.

[NosajNeelik]

1 hour ago, golferdude54 said:

I think you may be suffering from Posting Multiple Threads Of Your Swing Like A Wh*re Disorder. P.M.T.O.Y.S.L.A.W.D. is no joke, hope you can find help.

You have no idea 

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

I think you may be suffering from Posting Multiple Threads Of Your Swing Like A Wh*re Disorder. P.M.T.O.Y.S.L.A.W.D. is no joke, hope you can find help.

Well I know that's not true, because I have no swing. 

[RayPlan]

Back to drilling after several days with too much going on.

 

 

The video is chopped down to remove a lot of practice swings, hence the visible cuts at times. I also hit a few balls to get some sense of real contact.

 

I'm a bit exaggerated with some of the movements here, but not enough of others. My head positioning was off before, so now I'm tilting my head to be closer to my right shoulder though impact, and getting my right shoulder lower.

 

In trying to get to a good P7.5 and P8, but I'm still not hitting the P6 gateway correctly, and the clubhead is getting out in front of my hands.

 

The shaft should be pointing slightly right of target coming into P6, where I often have it to the left. That's why contact is bad, coming off toward the heel. 

 

I'm putting the pieces together, and some of those pieces are rougher than others. The beauty of it is that I can sense and see on video when things aren't working properly, then work on those deficient pieces. 

 

These videos represent a very small portion of my actual practice, and I never practice without video. I'm showing my work here, even the ugly stuff, because it's an important part of the process. 

[joedizzy1978]

A failure to understand forces and how the club COM responds to them will quickly undermine your efforts.  The club COM will want to align to the direction of force. You'll need to grasp this concept so you can better understand whats happening p6-p7....which will then allow you to secure a more accurate p7.5 to work back from.  

[jaffabell]

9 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Back to drilling after several days with too much going on.

 

 

The video is chopped down to remove a lot of practice swings, hence the visible cuts at times. I also hit a few balls to get some sense of real contact.

 

I'm a bit exaggerated with some of the movements here, but not enough of others. My head positioning was off before, so now I'm tilting my head to be closer to my right shoulder though impact, and getting my right shoulder lower.

 

In trying to get to a good P7.5 and P8, but I'm still not hitting the P6 gateway correctly, and the clubhead is getting out in front of my hands.

 

The shaft should be pointing slightly right of target coming into P6, where I often have it to the left. That's why contact is bad, coming off toward the heel. 

 

I'm putting the pieces together, and some of those pieces are rougher than others. The beauty of it is that I can sense and see on video when things aren't working properly, then work on those deficient pieces. 

 

These videos represent a very small portion of my actual practice, and I never practice without video. I'm showing my work here, even the ugly stuff, because it's an important part of the process. 

I feel my Fleetwood video from the Scottish Open has inspired the head movements here Ray!

 

Also I do agree with what Joe Dizzy has said above - momentum will effect where the clubhead wants to go and will largely dictate your follow through positions. to add to that the Rhythm and sequence of the swing is the glue, as some would say.

 

I'm guessing that over time you are hoping that your brain will sync up the improved positions at the various P points so that it all gels when applying it in full motion? 

[RayPlan]

1 minute ago, jaffabell said:

I feel my Fleetwood video from the Scottish Open has inspired the head movements here Ray!

Tommy Fleetwood definitely has an active neck. Compare to Adam Scott:

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, jaffabell said:

I'm guessing that over time you are hoping that your brain will sync up the improved positions at the various P points so that it all gels when applying it in full motion? 

It's not a process where things fall into place automatically. It's a matter of thinking, doing, viewing, thinking, doing, viewing, and so on. I spend far more time reviewing instructional materials (all from the same source), analyzing video, and thinking about the pieces than I do actually swinging a club. 

 

The golf swing is a 4D puzzle.

[sundaypins]

4 hours ago, joedizzy1978 said:

 The club COM will want to align to the direction of force. 

 

An important process within a process that's probably most important overall. 

 

9 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Back to drilling after several days with too much going on.

 

A real nugget about force and mass alignment, learn it, love it, leave it alone. 

[RayPlan]

High right shoulder is a big flaw. I was puzzling it out this morning, and it seems to come down to spine bend and tilt, and how those blend into each other. 

 

 

Until I can reliably figure out how to lower the right shoulder, I'm not going to hit the P6 gateway.

 

Edited July 16 by RayPlan

[RayPlan]

Sometimes I do focused movement practice indoors with a pint-sized wedge, with video.

 

Earlier, I was trying to tease out the movements to help me get to P6 correctly. There's an interplay between the pelvis movement and arm lowering that's been missing.

 

 

Pardon the emoji, I had a weird looking expression on my face.

 

 

 

 

[jonsnow]

21 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Sometimes I do focused movement practice indoors with a pint-sized wedge, with video.

 

Earlier, I was trying to tease out the movements to help me get to P6 correctly. There's an interplay between the pelvis movement and arm lowering that's been missing.

 

 

Pardon the emoji, I had a weird looking expression on my face.

 

 

 

 

My default is a weird looking expression on my face...

[RayPlan]

For me, it's probably because I'm bending over too much and just need to let my right arm unfurl a bit more.

[RayPlan]

Working on preventing this unfortunate move:

You have to manage the ground with your feet and the club with your hands. Controlling the arms relative to the torso is what allows those two things to talk to each other. 

 

My arms have gotten way too untethered from my body pivot by separating at the wrong time, causing poor impact. I'm swinging the arms far too much, instead of letting them work up and down while the body rotates.

 

Since I'm throwing my arms up off my chest through impact, I need to drill keeping them down and "connected" on partial swings (about P5 to P8). That means the towel drill.

 

Lots and lots of partial swings. And hitting a few balls. I condensed about a half hour of practice into 3 minutes here, and I cut some material, but this is what the process looks like.

 

 

The towel caused some stiffness in my follow through on some swings, but I made some progress on the P6 gateway, with the shaft pointing right of the target.

 

 

One thing I'm missing is the release of the pelvis from the gateway (P6) to the reference point (P7.5).

 

Much better ref point.

Edited July 19 by RayPlan

[TheDeanAbides]

6 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Working on preventing this unfortunate move:

You have to manage the ground with your feet and the club with your hands. Controlling the arms relative to the torso is what allows those two things to talk to each other. 

 

My arms have gotten way too untethered from my body pivot by separating at the wrong time, causing poor impact. I'm swinging the arms far too much, instead of letting them work up and down while the body rotates.

 

Since I'm throwing my arms up off my chest through impact, I need to drill keeping them down and "connected" on partial swings (about P5 to P8). That means the towel drill.

 

Lots and lots of partial swings. And hitting a few balls. I condensed about a half hour of practice into 3 minutes here, and I cut some material, but this is what the process looks like.

 

 

The towel caused some stiffness in my follow through on some swings, but I made some progress on the P6 gateway, with the shaft pointing right of the target.

 

 

One thing I'm missing is the release of the pelvis from the gateway (P6) to the reference point (P7.5).

 

Much better ref point.

Looks like your hypermobility could be a factor there too, Ray. 

[RayPlan]

13 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Looks like your hypermobility could be a factor there too, Ray. 

If you mean the top picture, and my head relative to my right shoulder, I think it's a pretty normal range of motion that just looks weird because of the camera angle and body position.

 

My right shoulder is doing a bit of a shrug, and I had my head tilted right. If you can cradle a phone, you too can do this nasty move!

 

Edited July 19 by RayPlan

[TheDeanAbides]

34 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

If you mean the top picture, and my head relative to my right shoulder, I think it's a pretty normal range of motion that just looks weird because of the camera angle and body position.

 

My right shoulder is doing a bit of a shrug, and I had my head tilted right. If you can cradle a phone, you too can do this nasty move!

 

I was referring to your right elbow. I have no idea if it is a factor, but thought it might. Actually, I didn't think about it at all - I just blurted it out! Feel free to ignore me. :)

[A.Princey]

Understanding impact conditions and trying to create them for an extended period after impact, is a good way of looking at it. Case in point, myself, as I've fallen victim to a fast closure rate through impact. Hooks and pulls are my enemy most days, when my swing mechanics fall apart. Rather than slow my closure or try to time it up better, I've gone to a method of keeping the face square after impact, by actually "flipping" at impact, which counters and wrist "rolling" post impact. It keeps my face on-line longer and it faces skyward rather than left and down in my follow-through. I don't carry a ton of shaft lean into impact, so my face control is much easier this way.

[biker74]

Not trying to derail this Ray.But many of our swings look different hitting into a net 5 feet away off a mat.Versus the driving range or even more so our golf course swing.Would recommend going somewhere where you have real targets to aim at off of turf not a mat.

[GoGoErky]

11 minutes ago, biker74 said:

Not trying to derail this Ray.But many of our swings look different hitting into a net 5 feet away off a mat.Versus the driving range or even more so our golf course swing.Would recommend going somewhere where you have real targets to aim at off of turf not a mat.

And if someone is trying to make a movement pattern change a net 5 feet away is a great way to do it. It takes away the concern of what the ball flight is and what the end result is and puts the movement pattern as the priority.

 

Monte has posted about the amount of success that his students had during Covid where they were inside for lessons and there was no focus on the result but rather getting better at changing their swing for the better. As a result their scores improved once they got out to play golf

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

And if someone is trying to make a movement pattern change a net 5 feet away is a great way to do it. It takes away the concern of what the ball flight is and what the end result is and puts the movement pattern as the priority.

 

Monte has posted about the amount of success that his students had during Covid where they were inside for lessons and there was no focus on the result but rather getting better at changing their swing for the better. As a result their scores improved once they got out to play golf

 

Mirror work maybe falls into this as well and I've known folks to grind indoors at home with their launch monitors and make a lot of progress, but takes discipline and awareness. Even inside for lessons or indoors on their own they'll get feedback you aren't going to get from a net set up a few feet away.  I'd think seeing real ball flight in juxtaposition with drills and so forth would be important as well.  Otherwise, to some extent it's just chasing positions, maybe correctly maybe not, and not hitting golf shots, working on any part of your game in any real sense or even playing golf.  To each his or her own but the occasional and again maybe, maybe not, "aha" moment on a camera and no more context seems a difficult way to become a better golfer, if that's the goal.