Rule 16.x interpetation. Question

[Vespar]

Our club has had its fair share of bad weather, incredible heat, downpours and drought.  Subsequently making a mess of the course.

 

The condition of the course has fell suspect to both ownership $$ & superintendent ignoring and natural problems. In certain areas its generally unplayable. These areas are abnormal when compared to the rest of the course or different holes. I am not speaking about penalty areas.  or areas 50 yards off line.

 

A) Areas around the green including first cut fringe and a couple of meters away from the green there will be no grass or areas where "hummocks" or tuffs of grass ahead the ball  and directly behind the ball. Making chipping next to impossible. This condition can be blamed on lack of effort by the grounds crew or simply unable to get to it for  ground under repair. 

 

B) in the fairway or rough that has had Turkeys and or skunks completely torn up sod, exposing chunks of sod & loose dirt in large expansive areas. 10 meters wide x 6-7 meters deep.  Again the club's ground crew has ignored the areas despite how "in play" they are.

 

Both of these examples at lush private clubs often are mark ( white spray paint) or staked as relief areas, free drop. 

 

 

QUESTION  Would either of these areas in your opinion offer relief as abnormal ground condition Rule 16.x in competition, like member member or league play.

 

Edited July 15 by Vespar

[Mr. Bean]

I can only give you a general advice.

 

Any area that is supposed to be a fair place to play a ball may be declared GUR if is it not in such condition. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define such areas and mark them properly.

 

I am afraid that is all I can tell you.

[Vespar]

We have no committee and our pro is not a pro but rather a GM

[Newby]

54 minutes ago, Vespar said:

We have no committee and our pro is not a pro but rather a GM

Who administers your handicaps? Or do you not use handicaps on that course?

[Johnny Biarritz]

Without being there or seeing pictures, it's not possible to answer the question of whether the player should be entitled relief. If it does meet the definition, which I can't say whether it does or does not, then, of course, relief would be granted in accordance with the rule. Which really leaves the question of who can decide. You seem to indicate that the greenkeeping staff has been unable to mark the course for whatever reason and that, perhaps, the GM is unable to render a decision. If that is the case, then the Rules offer no particular guidance on who can be the "Committee" other than to say "the person or group in charge of the competition or the course." Thus, however many of you playing in the league can come together to form your own Committee for that day's competition and establish any local rules necessary for fair competition. Local rules that could include whatever definition of abnormal ground conditions you see fit to establish. 

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, Vespar said:

Our club has had its fair share of bad weather, incredible heat, downpours and drought.  Subsequently making a mess of the course.

 

The condition of the course has fell suspect to both ownership $$ & superintendent ignoring and natural problems. In certain areas its generally unplayable. These areas are abnormal when compared to the rest of the course or different holes. I am not speaking about penalty areas.  or areas 50 yards off line.

 

A) Areas around the green including first cut fringe and a couple of meters away from the green there will be no grass or areas where "hummocks" or tuffs of grass ahead the ball  and directly behind the ball. Making chipping next to impossible. This condition can be blamed on lack of effort by the grounds crew or simply unable to get to it for  ground under repair. 

 

B) in the fairway or rough that has had Turkeys and or skunks completely torn up sod, exposing chunks of sod & loose dirt in large expansive areas. 10 meters wide x 6-7 meters deep.  Again the club's ground crew has ignored the areas despite how "in play" they are.

 

Both of these examples at lush private clubs often are mark ( white spray paint) or staked as relief areas, free drop. 

 

 

QUESTION  Would either of these areas in your opinion offer relief as abnormal ground condition Rule 16.x in competition, like member member or league play.

 

One of the tough things about posting questions here is the difficulty, unless you've been around for awhile, is assessing the quality of the responses. There are some here who know their stuff and some who just guess. Good luck. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, Vespar said:

We have no committee and our pro is not a pro but rather a GM

 

In that case you seem to have only two choices:

 

1) Play the ball down everywhere.

 

2) Write a Local Rule that defines certain areas as GUR (eg. left side rough of fairway 6). This will certainly lead to various interpretations made by the players but could be more fair than option nr 1.

 

Of course you might form a Committee before the tournament and ask from the GM if you may mark those areas. From the sound of your story this may not be a realistic scheme.

 

One word of advice. If you declare rough areas as GUR it is 100% certain that most players try to take relief onto the fairway (side) regardless of the position of their ball instead of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief and successive relief area (in the deeper rough / woods). You might bend the Rules by declaring that relief may be taken onto the fairway side (sort of Drop Zone), just to speed up play and make things more consistent. OR you might go by the Book and emphasize the correct procedure, that is, the relief area may very well be in a worse place than where the ball originally lay.

 

Good luck!

 

Edited July 16 by Mr. Bean

[Vespar]

14 hours ago, Newby said:

Who administers your handicaps? Or do you not use handicaps on that course?

The handicaps are automated thru GHIN. You simply enter the scores or holes your self. In rare times if a scoring app is used (tournaments) they self enter the handicap by each hole ( golf genius)

[Vespar]

11 hours ago, sui generis said:

One of the tough things about posting questions here is the difficulty, unless you've been around for awhile, is assessing the quality of the responses. There are some here who know their stuff and some who just guess. Good luck. 😉

agreed but more often than not its helpful

[Vespar]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

In that case you seem to have only two choices:

 

1) Play the ball down everywhere.

 

2) Write a Local Rule that defines certain areas as GUR (eg. left side rough of fairway 6). This will certainly lead to various interpretations made by the players but could be more fair than option nr 1.

 

Of course you might form a Committee before the tournament and ask from the GM if you may mark those areas. From the sound of your story this may not be a realistic scheme.

 

One word of advice. If you declare rough areas as GUR it is 100% certain that most players try to take relief onto the fairway (side) regardless of the position of their ball instead of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief and successive relief area (in the deeper rough / woods). You might bend the Rules by declaring that relief may be taken onto the fairway side (sort of Drop Zone), just to speed up play and make things more consistent. OR you might go by the Book and emphasize the correct procedure, that is, the relief area may very well be in a worse place than where the ball originally lay.

 

Good luck!

 

Well they are entitled to take one club relief and that includes from rough to fairway is my understanding. My intent of my question was n ot in the woods, But tee-green including the rough. What was once grass now is now grass, turned over sod, or unusual course condition due to drought, rainfall etc. Here is how my friend described it.   "I'm a 150 out, my ball lands on the green but rolls off. I missed the green now in the rough, Im ok with  but at least give me some grass, a playable lie on the rough or fringe. In some areas there is nothing."

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Vespar said:

Well they are entitled to take one club relief and that includes from rough to fairway is my understanding. My intent of my question was n ot in the woods, But tee-green including the rough. What was once grass now is now grass, turned over sod, or unusual course condition due to drought, rainfall etc. Here is how my friend described it.   "I'm a 150 out, my ball lands on the green but rolls off. I missed the green now in the rough, Im ok with  but at least give me some grass, a playable lie on the rough or fringe. In some areas there is nothing."

 

I am afraid you've missed my advice.

 

Now, a player hits their ball from the tee left into rough and there is only sod. So they get a free relief, but where? If the "unplayable" area is between the fairway and woods (or whatever there is between the fairways) the relief area depends on which side of that area is closer. It is not always the fairway side.

 

From your descriptions I fear that you have a demanding task ahead of you and there is no way your players will get equal treatment, unless you play it down everywhere and take unplayable whenever you cannot. Brutal but equal. Don't miss the fairways or greens...

 

Edited July 16 by Mr. Bean

[Vespar]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am afraid you've missed my advice.

 

Now, a player hits their ball from the tee left into rough and there is only sod. So they get a free relief, but where? If the "unplayable" area is between the fairway and woods (or whatever there is between the fairways) the relief area depends on which side of that area is closer. It is not always the fairway side.

 

From your descriptions I fear that you have a demanding task ahead of you and there is no way your players will get equal treatment, unless you play it down everywhere and take unplayable whenever you cannot. Brutal but equal. Don't miss the fairways or greens...

 

No, I understood your advice. I am well aware of how relief is determined. My point is if relief is given say something obvious in the rough. Say a sleeping rattle snake, you get relief, and with the measured club distance- if that puts you in the fairway, no closer to hole, you are entitled to it. No rule that states you have to stay in the rough.

 

Back on my topic the areas in question say areas of the sod turned over have been in the fairway. The areas of no grass can be on the fringe, The areas of patch work grass, small globs of gras can also be in the fairway or fringe- Its often very penal  depending where the ball ends up despite being in the fairway

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, Vespar said:

No, I understood your advice. I am well aware of how relief is determined. My point is if relief is given say something obvious in the rough. Say a sleeping rattle snake, you get relief, and with the measured club distance- if that puts you in the fairway, no closer to hole, you are entitled to it. No rule that states you have to stay in the rough.

 

Back on my topic the areas in question say areas of the sod turned over have been in the fairway. The areas of no grass can be on the fringe, The areas of patch work grass, small globs of gras can also be in the fairway or fringe- Its often very penal  depending where the ball ends up despite being in the fairway

Be aware that "being in the fairway" does not guarantee a perfect lie or perfect conditions, and that "fairway" is not defined in the Rules.

Edited July 16 by rogolf

[antip]

On the OP: 
There is no relief for A under the Rules - it is play as lies unless a Committee/the course responsible entity advises otherwise.

For B, holes made by animals - see the definition of animal hole as it includes multiple aspects - relief is available under Rule 16.1b.