Beginner golfer concerned with direction of lessons

[virtuoso]

42 minutes ago, cbrown1170 said:

I appreciate all of the insight here.

 

The conversation reminded me of one of the first things my coach asked me to do, and that was swing as hard as I could. I think I swung so hard I missed the ball entirely. When I did make contact, the club speed was still right around where it was in the videos I linked.

 

That's why I've always been under the impression that "swinging hard" is generally ineffective, and the power and speed comes from sound mechanics (weight shift, a long enough backswing, etc). I definitely don't ever feel like I'm "swinging hard", so it's probably something I could pay attention to.. When I watch the pros, it always looks so effortless. I guess I'm having trouble grasping what swinging hard really means. 

No question.

 

...because understanding and training the kinematic chain allows you to swing "fast" without feeling like you are swinging "hard."

[cbrown1170]

33 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

No question.

 

...because understanding and training the kinematic chain allows you to swing "fast" without feeling like you are swinging "hard."

So how do I do that man? lol

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, cbrown1170 said:

So how do I do that man? lol

I've got you covered.

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well, I think what you’re saying is that he should stay on the current path but try to communicate with the teacher better. This is your advice about becoming his own best advocate.

 

He will definitely get better doing this, but sometime after learning to shoot somewhere in the 90’s, he will run into some pretty severe roadblocks.

 

One of these roadblocks will be slow clubhead speed and the other one will be the impact alignments: too much dynamic loft at impact with an overly shallow angle of attack. These two things work in concert with each other.

 

This is almost a stone cold certainty.

 

The despair part comes when either the current instructor or a new instructor shows him the level of motor pattern re-engineering he’s going to have to do to reach his new goals.

 

I’d like for him to not have to go through that because it’s almost un-fixable at that point.

 

The issue with yours and my debate is that we have such fundamentally different views about how to build a high level golf swing that maybe we should just agree to disagree?

 

Have no issue with whatever your views are about how to build a good swing, you're free to feel as you feel and see it as you see as is anyone else. What made me say something was that as quoted, your claims about "one and done" for learning kinematic sequencing are just factually untrue. There are multiple guys who have returned to pro golf after things up to and including double hip replacements and major back surgeries. Some of them had to learn how to walk again with permanent changes in their available sensory input and musculoskeletal structure. They had to start back from zero, and as in other sports they managed to do so. If they can manage that then no doubt as even discussed in this thread a beginner who's ineffective in their swing for whatever simpler reason is more than capable of correcting it with good instruction.  

 

I was direct in my biggest issue being spreading things that aren't true about our capabilities for learning motion. It's creating the seed for worries that just aren't needed.

 

Even in your above response you're doubling down that he's doing wrong things that will limit his speed because of something this new instructor is showing him when he's never said that's the case and you don't have the full lesson video to back it up. You're telling him unequivocally his instructor has it wrong or is missing things when you aren't there for the lessons and don't know all they're working on. 

 

As also pointed out his instructor asked at the end of the lesson if they're on the same page, OP says yes. Asked if there are any questions, OP says no. No reason for the instructor to think the issues present are more than adaptation awkwardness when the student says everything's fine. We know the OP feels out of sorts because he's talked to us about it, but the instructor hasn't been told. 

 

I won't argue it anymore beyond that. 

 

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I don't see it that way.

 

I see his first post as saying:

• Don't make it too complicated.
• Learn to turn and use your arms properly.
• Do those things fast hitting the ground.
• Tighten up where you hit the ground, then introduce a ball.
• Do things fast right now.

The videos had him swinging at 71 and 66 MPH. I have a few 12-year-old girls who swing faster than that. Both lessons were pretty technical, with the guy on all sorts of technology, at a stage when almost every swing is slightly different. Learning basic kinematic sequencing things with speed is in many ways the opposite of that.

 

Beyond that, and with the chart, I took what he said to be more general, and not necessarily specifically about the OP.

 

That all said, I've only skimmed the topic, so if either of us missed something it's likely me. 🙂 

 

I agree that some of it is probably overly technical and overwhelming for the OP and like others suggested he have a more informed chat with the instructor so they can work together more effectively. My take is that he's throwing in things he's not in the know about while pulling the poster into it as well as saying things that just aren't true. 

 

If I'm simply reading his overall statements in the wrong way then no worries, my bad. I didn't, however, misread what I quoted him about regarding the body being able to create an effective kinematic chain from the start or having to forever hold its peace. 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Have no issue with whatever your views are about how to build a good swing, you're free to feel as you feel and see it as you see as is anyone else. What made me say something was that as quoted, your claims about "one and done" for learning kinematic sequencing are just factually untrue. There are multiple guys who have returned to pro golf after things up to and including double hip replacements and major back surgeries. Some of them had to learn how to walk again with permanent changes in their available sensory input and musculoskeletal structure. They had to start back from zero, and as in other sports they managed to do so. If they can manage that then no doubt as even discussed in this thread a beginner who's ineffective in their swing for whatever simpler reason is more than capable of correcting it with good instruction.  

 

I was direct in my biggest issue being spreading things that aren't true about our capabilities for learning motion. It's creating the seed for worries that just aren't needed.

 

Even in your above response you're doubling down that he's doing wrong things that will limit his speed because of something this new instructor is showing him when he's never said that's the case and you don't have the full lesson video to back it up. You're telling him unequivocally his instructor has it wrong or is missing things when you aren't there for the lessons and don't know all they're working on. 

 

As also pointed out his instructor asked at the end of the lesson if they're on the same page, OP says yes. Asked if there are any questions, OP says no. No reason for the instructor to think the issues present are more than adaptation awkwardness when the student says everything's fine. We know the OP feels out of sorts because he's talked to us about it, but the instructor hasn't been told. 

 

I won't argue it anymore beyond that. 

 

 

I agree that some of it is probably overly technical and overwhelming for the OP and like others suggested he have a more informed chat with the instructor so they can work together more effectively. My take is that he's throwing in things he's not in the know about while pulling the poster into it as well as saying things that just aren't true. 

 

If I'm simply reading his overall statements in the wrong way then no worries, my bad. I didn't, however, misread what I quoted him about regarding the body being able to create an effective kinematic chain from the start or having to forever hold its peace. 

You know sometimes I agree with you like in this case.  Probably confirms that you are indeed "reading his overall statements in the wrong way"?

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

I won't argue it anymore beyond that. 

Cool, I think we've both explained our point of view thoroughly enough.

[Avid_but_mediocre]

@virtuoso @PedronNiall your discussion reminded me of this clip from Jon Tattersal on the teach fast or slow approach.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKdh8LsMAjq/?igsh=MTFta2JrZjV3dGJ0NA==

[TheDeanAbides]

For what it's worth, I'll add my experience of swinging faster over learning better mechanics. I grew up with Faldo as my idol. All I wanted to do was get my ball on the short stuff over and over again. He lost distance going to Leadbetter, but gained control. That was obvious pre Tiger. 

 

I have never hit the ball very far as a result of that, and even at my best I only ever carried it 260. My mechanics improved exponentially, but my distance didn't really change very much at all. 

 

I know that Faldo himself says that he wished he'd learnt differently, and now we always tells beginners to hit the ball as hard as they possibly can for exactly the reasons @virtuoso mentions. 

[virtuoso]

Well, I’m talking more about beginners and how they can accidentally make the wrong strategy decisions that have huge implications on their long term development.

 

Specific to the OP, he’s a healthy male in his mid to late 20’s that wants to ultimately play at a high level and is only swinging his iron 70 mph.

 

He doesn’t know how to make the “wooosh”.

 

He needs to learn the whoosh now, and immediately get to around 85 mph.

 

Then he can start refining the pieces.

 

He won’t be able to learn the whoosh later and introduce it into his golf swing because at that point the wooshless motor pattern will not let him. He will be a prisoner in a cage of his own making.

Edited July 31 by virtuoso

[RayPlan]

8 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Well, I’m talking more about beginners and how they can prematurely make the wrong strategy decisions that have huge implications on their long term development.

 

Specific to the OP, he’s a healthy male in his mid to late 20’s that wants to ultimately play at a high level and is only swinging his iron 70 mph.

 

He doesn’t know how to make the “wooosh”.

 

He needs to learn the whoosh now, and immediately get to around 85 mph.

 

Then he can start refining the pieces.

 

He won’t be able to learn the whoosh later and introduce it into his golf swing because at that point the wooshless motor pattern will not let him. He will be a prisoner in a cage of his own making.

Glad to see someone finally starting to talk about Air Reaction Forces (ARF). The "whoosh" is so underappreciated in the mainstream instruction space.

[cbrown1170]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well, I’m talking more about beginners and how they can accidentally make the wrong strategy decisions that have huge implications on their long term development.

 

Specific to the OP, he’s a healthy male in his mid to late 20’s that wants to ultimately play at a high level and is only swinging his iron 70 mph.

 

He doesn’t know how to make the “wooosh”.

 

He needs to learn the whoosh now, and immediately get to around 85 mph.

 

Then he can start refining the pieces.

 

He won’t be able to learn the whoosh later and introduce it into his golf swing because at that point the wooshless motor pattern will not let him. He will be a prisoner in a cage of his own making.

Now I just need the secret sauce on creating the whoosh!