Beginner golfer concerned with direction of lessons

[rsballer10]

@cbrown1170 Have you talked with your coach yet? The 2nd video shows quite a bit of improvement. With regards to the tech and whether or not to use it, I'd leave that up to the instructor to decide. Personally, I've seen the other side of instruction. A lot of teaching pros still don't use video or any type of measurements, so most of what they say is nothing more than an intuition or feeling.

 

He's clearly got you in a better spot at impact in your 2nd lesson. Backswing looks better too. My recommendation is get a tripod to film your swings outside of lessons. What do your bad swings look like compared to the ones shown in lesson #2? Verify you are working on the things coach wants you to. Sometimes we 'think' or 'feel' we are doing a certain movement, but we don't execute it.

 

Lastly, the coach ends the video with "does this make sense?" *yes* "anything you want to add" *no*. If I heard this - I'd think we are all good. Is he aware of your concerns?

[Hawkeye77]

10 hours ago, cbrown1170 said:

Thanks for all the replies to this post, troll or not.

 

Just want to clear some things up... I'm not at all saying what he is telling me to do is inherently *wrong*.. I have no grounds to determine that or not. To me, they just feel like more advanced, niche concepts that would probably be dissected and corrected once a better foundation is built. If I'm having trouble making solid contact and hitting the ball in the center of the club face, which he is aware of, I would think there would be different things to focus on.. That aren't the length of my backswing, or the weight distribution in my back foot as I start the downswing.

 

He is an incredibly nice guy with a state of the art training center. I am really not trying to say anything negative about him. And I know the problem lies with me, and being an absolute s*** golfer. 

 

Having played other sports and been with lots of coaches, I guess I also have the opinion that there are plenty of methods and approaches to get the most out of someone. And I'm just wondering if trying a different coach or talking with him about the approach of these lessons would be valuable. As an example, we never discussed anything about my setup, which I'm sure could use improvement. This is an example of something that I would think would be addressed before going into the things we have.

 

I really hope I didn't come off like a **** in my initial message, I'm just looking for some advice on what you may see in my swing, and if you think the feedback I'm getting is effective or not. These lessons are high up on the $ scale compared to other options, so I think it's only fair for me to wonder if it might be worth seeing if I gel with someone else better. I know he coaches golfers who are now playing D1 and stuff like that, so he might just be geared more towards having students who are further along in their game.

 

Thanks again for all the feedback. 

 

Nobody has been trolling replies, no reason for that.

 

How can you still be wondering if talking with him would be valuable? Should have never been a question and yet it still is.  

 

Based on the additional information, the fact you are still questioning whether you should have a conversation with the instructor and like everyone else not knowing the entirely of the lessons, or the coach, or you, my $.01 is you should move on. You've already got in your head what your instruction should look like, and what appear to be some valid notions about that, so you need to find someone that matches with your expectations.  You and the current instructor will probably both be the better for it and you'll likely make whatever gains you are going to make more quickly and feel comfortable about the process.

Edited July 23 by Hawkeye77

[cbrown1170]

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Nobody has been trolling replies, no reason for that.

 

How can you still be wondering if talking with him would be valuable? Should have never been a question and yet it still is.  

 

Based on the additional information, the fact you are still questioning whether you should have a conversation with the instructor and like everyone else not knowing the entirely of the lessons, or the coach, or you, my $.01 is you should move on. You've already got in your head what your instruction should look like, and what appear to be some valid notions about that, so you need to find someone that matches with your expectations.  You and the current instructor will probably both be the better for it and you'll likely make whatever gains you are going to make more quickly and feel comfortable about the process.

Yes, it was definitely stupid of me to even question whether or not a conversation would be worthwhile. I'm just not very good at speaking up in general and sometimes react in silence. Seeing as I still have 3 lessons to go with the package I purchased, I'm definitely going to talk to him. Just thinking about what exactly I want to communicate to get more out of the lessons. 

[virtuoso]

@cbrown1170

 

If I said you should spend most of your practice time trying to swing about as big and hard as you can, would that sound wrong to you?

[cbrown1170]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

@cbrown1170

 

If I said you should spend most of your practice time trying to swing about as big and hard as you can, would that sound wrong to you?

Yes.. But somehow i think that answer is not the one you are looking for 

Edited July 23 by cbrown1170

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, cbrown1170 said:

Yes.. But somehow i think that answer is not the one you are looking for 

And that's exactly why you need a coach to teach you the basic principles of improvement. 

[cbrown1170]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

And that's exactly why you need a coach to teach you the basic principles of improvement. 

Well yeah, I thought I was doing that. My initial email to this coach before going into lessons really outlined that I was a total beginner with very realistic expectations. 

[virtuoso]

16 minutes ago, cbrown1170 said:

Yes.. But somehow i think that answer is not the one you are looking for 

Yeah, that’s understandable. Try yo start slow and small, and then increase speed as you increase technical competence, etc. 

 

The problem:

 

Every kid that learned to ultimately break 80, and some of them 70, learned to move big and fast first, and then constrained the swing later.

 

Most adults that started golf, learned to make small, slow swings first and then tried to make them faster and bigger later. Most of them never learned to break 90. Bogey golfers for life.

 

There is a technical explanation for this.

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, cbrown1170 said:

Yes, it was definitely stupid of me to even question whether or not a conversation would be worthwhile. I'm just not very good at speaking up in general and sometimes react in silence. Seeing as I still have 3 lessons to go with the package I purchased, I'm definitely going to talk to him. Just thinking about what exactly I want to communicate to get more out of the lessons. 

 

Nobody said "stupid", lol, and we all can feel intimidated with our own lack of knowledge or whatever the reason and not feel comfortable asking questions.  I wouldn't overthink it just initiate the conversation and maybe see if he'll have that outside the context of a scheduled lesson.  

[cbrown1170]

11 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, that’s understandable. Try yo start slow and small, and then increase speed as you increase technical competence, etc. 

 

The problem:

 

Every kid that learned to ultimately break 80, and some of them 70, learned to move big and fast first, and then constrained the swing later.

 

Most adults that started golf, learned to make small, slow swings first and then tried to make them faster and bigger later. Most of them never learned to break 90. Bogey golfers for life.

 

There is a technical explanation for this.

That's a really interesting thought and one that makes a lot of sense to me.. Even on the course I never really feel like I'm swinging out of my shoes. Never even really tried to do that I guess.

 

A lot of swings I see people post on reddit are very wild and uncontrolled but some of them seem to get great power at least. So I see what you mean. 

[CTgamer]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, that’s understandable. Try yo start slow and small, and then increase speed as you increase technical competence, etc. 

 

The problem:

 

Every kid that learned to ultimately break 80, and some of them 70, learned to move big and fast first, and then constrained the swing later.

 

Most adults that started golf, learned to make small, slow swings first and then tried to make them faster and bigger later. Most of them never learned to break 90. Bogey golfers for life.

 

There is a technical explanation for this.

I’d love to hear more on the technical explanation? And also curious, how much you think the scoring is a result of how kids learned (by swinging big and fast) vs something else (e.g., a side effect of them learning young)

 

It also seems like some of that has to do with what children are physically able to do/not vs adults…
-Kids tend to be more flexible, they’re used to moving their body, and they don’t have the upper body strength to “muscle” the club with just their arms. 
-A lot of the adults I see aren’t used to moving their body, have lost a lot of flexibility, and can’t make contact with a swing anything close to “big and fast.”

 

I’d be interested in any insights that can translate to adult coaching 

[virtuoso]

31 minutes ago, cbrown1170 said:

That's a really interesting thought and one that makes a lot of sense to me.. Even on the course I never really feel like I'm swinging out of my shoes. Never even really tried to do that I guess.

 

A lot of swings I see people post on reddit are very wild and uncontrolled but some of them seem to get great power at least. So I see what you mean. 

Basically, you have one chance in your golfing life to learn the kinematic chain.

 

Would you like to see Virtuoso’s Skill Acquisition Graph?

[jacot23]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Basically, you have one chance in your golfing life to learn the kinematic chain.

 

 

What if you started early(19) swinging out of your shoes, then learned to score low in your 20s(shot around par pretty much anywhere); then quit playing for 20 years; how does one relearn? Sure can't swing out of my shoes at 50, lol.

 

Anywho, OP, a conversation with your coach is needed and then patience. Don't switch from coach to coach a lot, you'll just get worse and worse.

 

 

[SheriffBooth]

I can tell I'm getting old because checking Trackman data and being on pressure plates as an absolute beginner seems like lunacy.

[TheDeanAbides]

5 minutes ago, SheriffBooth said:

I can tell I'm getting old because checking Trackman data and being on pressure plates as an absolute beginner seems like lunacy.

We're all getting old in that case, fella. 

 

 

[golferdude54]

Aside from proper grip and setup fundamentals, the rest of the swing can pretty much be broken down into this ranking in importance from first to last:

 

Steady head (head doesn’t sway all over the place)

 

Stable footwork/lower body (feet doesn’t move weird and no hip swaying/EE)

 

Consistent arc (the horizontal part of the swing involving both the clubhead and the butt end of the grip from FO camera view, lots of people mess this part up and get “narrow”)

 

Plane (where the clubshaft points DTL, if a laser was pointing out of both ends of the club, it should trace the target line at all times or as near it as possible)

 

Depth (how far away from the target line DTL the hands/arms/club travel; this is dependent on arc as well, “narrow” arc can create too flat/upright)

 

Upper/lower body synchronization (arms match up with lower body and are in front rather than lagging behind which is very common, the alignment stick in belt loop drill/Gankas G-box aid is popular for this)

Get all those down and that’s it, you have a better swing than everyone on WRX. Aside from a few lurking tour pros!

[CHNchilla]

I'm also a guy that started golf well into my adult life and taken quite a few lessons with maybe 4-6 coaches, so I think I have something to add to this conversation. 

I started with one of those Golftec bundles, and, while it was helpful, I certainly did not need anywhere the number of data points they provided. Hip/Shoulder Turn degrees, hip slide, hand path movements. My swing massively improved, but it wasn't because of the tech -- unless you count a pool noodle as such. 

 

My next coach was a $60/lesson teaching pro with no tech to speak of that kept things very simple. I took a big leap with her because we focused big on the things that were hurting my ball flight at the time (majorly closed clubface). I was clear with her that I wanted to improve my swing overall and just wasn't looking for bandaids. We went slow and progressed through my issues. 

 

I'm at a point now where I'm both more knowledgeable about golf and own my swing where the tech is mainly more of a check on what I'm doing. Through my current coaches help, I have parameters where I want my swing to live and trackman is great to make sure my mechanical movements or changes are actually making those numbers better. But generally, we don't talk about granular data during a lesson. He provides an idea, I come up with a feel that I think captures that idea, and we try to meet in the middle somewhere.

 

If you're anything like me, leave the analytical thinking at the door and ask yourself "Am I hitting the ball better during these lessons?"  IMO that's way more important than any data that can be provided early on.
 

[virtuoso]

@cbrown1170, here is your study material:

 

FSF=Fast Swings First

SSF=Slow Swings First

 

Edited July 23 by virtuoso

[sundaypins]

Impressive art work, especially including the latest issue from PXG.  

[cbrown1170]

On 7/23/2025 at 11:05 AM, virtuoso said:

@cbrown1170, here is your study material:

 

FSF=Fast Swings First

SSF=Slow Swings First

 

lol

[PedronNiall]

On 7/23/2025 at 11:05 AM, virtuoso said:

@cbrown1170, here is your study material:

 

FSF=Fast Swings First

SSF=Slow Swings First

 

 

I know to some extent you're having fun with all this but it's wild to me you insist on saying swinging fast is the way to improve no matter how much you see contradicting it.

 

Sprinting is certainly something where max speed is important yet the number one item for getting that max speed is learning proper posture first. The second is to get down the mechanics, most importantly how to begin motion and plant the lead foot. Then it's getting the cadence or rhythm down that works to facilitate continuous efficient motion. Sounds a lot like grip/setup/posture, takeaway, and proper tempo & timing in the golf swing.

 

Please post some research showing that swinging hard and fast from the get go is the proven method for learning new motor skills and movement patterns most efficiently. Happy to learn more and happy to be shown where what you're sharing is correct.

 

Everything I've read, seen, and even posted here myself shows that doing things quickly from the start does little to aid learning and is a slower method than getting the positions and technique correct and moving through them in a way that allows the body to adapt and feel them rather than rushing through those positions.

 

Guy is spending hundreds of dollars to try and learn correctly from the start, otherwise I probably would be more chill about it, but I don't get what you're doing or where you're coming from. There's nowhere that says the brain gets one chance to learn correct sequencing for anything to my knowledge. If I'm wrong please share, but I really don't get what these posts are about.

[SlyFrog]

25 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Guy is spending hundreds of dollars to try and learn correctly from the start, otherwise I probably would be more chill about it, but I don't get what you're doing or where you're coming from. There's nowhere that says the brain gets one chance to learn correct sequencing for anything to my knowledge. If I'm wrong please share, but I really don't get what these posts are about.

 

In fairness, this is something Padraig Harrington has kind of intimated in his videos as well. I'm not sure I agree with it (frankly, I don't pretend to have done the research), but the (overly simplified) idea is somehow that if you don't max your speed early, your brain essentially puts a governor on you for the rest of your life at the speed you were stuck at early.

Seems kind of kooky to me as a concept, but I guess I can understand the theoretical idea that the brain sort of "learns" how fast it thinks your body can go and you unconsciously set at that level. I don't know.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

I know to some extent you're having fun with all this but it's wild to me you insist on saying swinging fast is the way to improve no matter how much you see contradicting it.

 

Sprinting is certainly something where max speed is important yet the number one item for getting that max speed is learning proper posture first. The second is to get down the mechanics, most importantly how to begin motion and plant the lead foot. Then it's getting the cadence or rhythm down that works to facilitate continuous efficient motion. Sounds a lot like grip/setup/posture, takeaway, and proper tempo & timing in the golf swing.

 

Please post some research showing that swinging hard and fast from the get go is the proven method for learning new motor skills and movement patterns most efficiently. Happy to learn more and happy to be shown where what you're sharing is correct.

 

Everything I've read, seen, and even posted here myself shows that doing things quickly from the start does little to aid learning and is a slower method than getting the positions and technique correct and moving through them in a way that allows the body to adapt and feel them rather than rushing through those positions.

 

Guy is spending hundreds of dollars to try and learn correctly from the start, otherwise I probably would be more chill about it, but I don't get what you're doing or where you're coming from. There's nowhere that says the brain gets one chance to learn correct sequencing for anything to my knowledge. If I'm wrong please share, but I really don't get what these posts are about.

Did you see the first word on the graph title? This is the entirety of the research material.

 

BTW, I am making it humorous, but I’m deadly serious. I’m not giving him bad advice for fun. I don’t sabotage people for fun.

 

Bottom line, if you learn to make micro swings first…..and start making them a little bigger, and a little bigger…..and finally get to a point where you can hit an 8 iron 120 yards, kinda solid but scoopy, but kinda reliable…..and then you decide: “Hey, I’d like to learn to hit this thing 150! I’m still on the forward tees and can’t hit any greens in regulation!”…..it’s essentially going to be too late.

 

All the instructors that have people make little tiny swings with the wrong sequence, that can’t effectively be developed into a bigger, faster swing, forget to tell their students that they themselves didn’t learn that way. And 99% of their students will never be as good as them.

 

If you want to acquire the skill of good players that learned as a kid….then learn like a kid.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

All the instructors that have people make little tiny swings with the wrong sequence, that can’t effectively be developed into a bigger, faster swing, forget to tell their students that they themselves didn’t learn that way. And 99% of their students will never be as good as them.

 

@PedronNiall, he's not talking about practicing… he's talking about how you swing when you're first learning. Nicklaus said it like "swing fast, then learn to hit it straight." Train the speed first… then reign in the control.

 

My "Starter" lessons, I have a pre-planned set of three. The third is chipping/putting. The first two are full swings. I teach grip, setup, and pivot (with "no arms") in the first lesson… and even in this I encourage golfers to rotate hard. Turn fast. Hit the ground and hit the ball hard.

 

Many of the "Starters" are adults. I see one of my main jobs as getting them to swing at more than 40 MPH… because if their first swings are at 40 MPH, in my experience, the odds that they're ever going to be good at golf are pretty low. (If they're content to just play golf with their husband and be outside or whatever, then no judgment here — they just won't break 100, ever, likely).

 

I had a girl "guiding" the club around the other day. She's in high school, but she's small. 7I swing speed was 60. I challenged her to get to 75. She didn't get there, but she hit 74… and the balls were higher, farther… and straighter. More accurate. Because biomechanics, geometry, etc. work better when you MOVE. (To a certain point.)

[virtuoso]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

@PedronNiall, he's not talking about practicing… he's talking about how you swing when you're first learning. Nicklaus said it like "swing fast, then learn to hit it straight." Train the speed first… then reign in the control.

 

My "Starter" lessons, I have a pre-planned set of three. The third is chipping/putting. The first two are full swings. I teach grip, setup, and pivot (with "no arms") in the first lesson… and even in this I encourage golfers to rotate hard. Turn fast. Hit the ground and hit the ball hard.

 

Many of the "Starters" are adults. I see one of my main jobs as getting them to swing at more than 40 MPH… because if their first swings are at 40 MPH, in my experience, the odds that they're ever going to be good at golf are pretty low. (If they're content to just play golf with their husband and be outside or whatever, then no judgment here — they just won't break 100, ever, likely).

 

I had a girl "guiding" the club around the other day. She's in high school, but she's small. 7I swing speed was 60. I challenged her to get to 75. She didn't get there, but she hit 74… and the balls were higher, farther… and straighter. More accurate. Because biomechanics, geometry, etc. work better when you MOVE. (To a certain point.)

Yep, once someone can put some raw speed on the club, we slow things down and start refining the pieces.

[games]

On 7/22/2025 at 2:45 PM, cbrown1170 said:

Hi everyone,

Help! 

Thanks so much. 

 

To the OP: Great coaches work front-to-back.

They work grip, stance and takeaway first.

They know that solidifying the static and starting skills makes the swing easier to teach.

 

Bigger picture:

1. Beginners need to understand the golf learning process

2. Pros need to learn to teach and communicate better with beginners

Beginners are basic consumers. "I need a TV this size, for this space. What are my options and what is the best deal?"

We all know that is not the learning process.

But, many beginners have an economic barrier to a "series of lessons."

Customer: BORING. What am I paying for? I want to know how to hit a draw. Hit it 50 yards more. Blah, blah, blah.

At this point, the pro has a business decision.

The good pro that starts at the beginning explains how the boring aspects of initial lessons contribute to the back end.

The bad pros happen upon a tip that lasts one day (WOOD) but has the student coming back because they hit it so good.

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

@PedronNiall, he's not talking about practicing… he's talking about how you swing when you're first learning. Nicklaus said it like "swing fast, then learn to hit it straight." Train the speed first… then reign in the control.

 

My "Starter" lessons, I have a pre-planned set of three. The third is chipping/putting. The first two are full swings. I teach grip, setup, and pivot (with "no arms") in the first lesson… and even in this I encourage golfers to rotate hard. Turn fast. Hit the ground and hit the ball hard.

 

Many of the "Starters" are adults. I see one of my main jobs as getting them to swing at more than 40 MPH… because if their first swings are at 40 MPH, in my experience, the odds that they're ever going to be good at golf are pretty low. (If they're content to just play golf with their husband and be outside or whatever, then no judgment here — they just won't break 100, ever, likely).

 

I had a girl "guiding" the club around the other day. She's in high school, but she's small. 7I swing speed was 60. I challenged her to get to 75. She didn't get there, but she hit 74… and the balls were higher, farther… and straighter. More accurate. Because biomechanics, geometry, etc. work better when you MOVE. (To a certain point.)

 

Don't disagree that people shouldn't be trying to guide the club, but the premise of the whole thing based on

 

On 7/23/2025 at 9:37 AM, virtuoso said:

Most adults that started golf, learned to make small, slow swings first and then tried to make them faster and bigger later. Most of them never learned to break 90. Bogey golfers for life.

 

and

 

On 7/23/2025 at 10:24 AM, virtuoso said:

Basically, you have one chance in your golfing life to learn the kinematic chain.

 

is just throwing things in a beginner's head that aren't based in reality and that didn't need to be added to the thread. 

 

Tossing in

 

On 7/23/2025 at 9:14 AM, virtuoso said:

@cbrown1170

 

If I said you should spend most of your practice time trying to swing about as big and hard as you can, would that sound wrong to you?

 

instead of just advising him to communicate better with his instructor doesn't do anything helpful to get him moving in the right direction. OP even mentioned that his club speed has gone up on the monitor from his initial lessons, and I didn't see any note of him being told to make weak swings, just that he wasn't making great contact and was worried he's not moving in the right direction along with feeling things were getting beyond what he could grasp this early on because if the focus on plate data and the lower body. 

 

I see it as a disservice to someone who asked for insight on how their lessons are going to jump in and ask questions and offer opinions that could send him down some rabbit hole or have him feeling like he's being taught the wrong thing rather than maybe needing to better voice feeling overwhelmed and helping the instructor to engage with him better. 

 

If I missed something then fair enough, but the mess he posted about having one chance to get it right is just not true.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

If I missed something then fair enough, but the mess he posted about having one chance to get it right is just not true.

 

I don't see it that way.

 

I see his first post as saying:

• Don't make it too complicated.
• Learn to turn and use your arms properly.
• Do those things fast hitting the ground.
• Tighten up where you hit the ground, then introduce a ball.
• Do things fast right now.

The videos had him swinging at 71 and 66 MPH. I have a few 12-year-old girls who swing faster than that. Both lessons were pretty technical, with the guy on all sorts of technology, at a stage when almost every swing is slightly different. Learning basic kinematic sequencing things with speed is in many ways the opposite of that.

 

Beyond that, and with the chart, I took what he said to be more general, and not necessarily specifically about the OP.

 

That all said, I've only skimmed the topic, so if either of us missed something it's likely me. 🙂 

[virtuoso]

6 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

…rather than maybe needing to better voice feeling overwhelmed and helping the instructor to engage with him better. 

 

If I missed something then fair enough, but the mess he posted about having one chance to get it right is just not true.

Well, I think what you’re saying is that he should stay on the current path but try to communicate with the teacher better. This is your advice about becoming his own best advocate.

 

He will definitely get better doing this, but sometime after learning to shoot somewhere in the 90’s, he will run into some pretty severe roadblocks.

 

One of these roadblocks will be slow clubhead speed and the other one will be the impact alignments: too much dynamic loft at impact with an overly shallow angle of attack. These two things work in concert with each other.

 

This is almost a stone cold certainty.

 

The despair part comes when either the current instructor or a new instructor shows him the level of motor pattern re-engineering he’s going to have to do to reach his new goals.

 

I’d like for him to not have to go through that because it’s almost un-fixable at that point.

 

The issue with yours and my debate is that we have such fundamentally different views about how to build a high level golf swing that maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Edited July 30 by virtuoso

[cbrown1170]

I appreciate all of the insight here.

 

The conversation reminded me of one of the first things my coach asked me to do, and that was swing as hard as I could. I think I swung so hard I missed the ball entirely. When I did make contact, the club speed was still right around where it was in the videos I linked.

 

That's why I've always been under the impression that "swinging hard" is generally ineffective, and the power and speed comes from sound mechanics (weight shift, a long enough backswing, etc). I definitely don't ever feel like I'm "swinging hard", so it's probably something I could pay attention to.. When I watch the pros, it always looks so effortless. I guess I'm having trouble grasping what swinging hard really means.