Moving the ball on the fairway

[SuperSpurs106]

I feel like there are varying rules with regard to moving a ball on the fairway and the penalties that may or may not apply.

 

Can someone clarify when a penalty would apply in the following scenarios:

 

1. Ball moves caused by practice swing near the ball. Ball is replaced on original spot and stroke is made.

2. Ball moves caused by practice swing accidentally hitting the ball. Ball is placed on original spot and stroke is made.

3. Ball moves at address when it is accidentally touched. Ball is placed on original spot and stroke is made.

[SNIPERBBB]

They're all covered by the same rule  pre 2019 they may have been treated differently.

[SuperSpurs106]

5 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

They're all covered by the same rule  pre 2019 they may have been treated differently.

Thank you.

 

Is it a one stroke penalty in all three examples?

 

I was speaking to someone yesterday and they said it was no penalty if the player wasn’t deliberately making a stroke at the ball.

[Pepperturbo]

15 minutes ago, SuperSpurs106 said:

I feel like there are varying rules with regard to moving a ball on the fairway and the penalties that may or may not apply.

 

Can someone clarify when a penalty would apply in the following scenarios:

 

1. Ball moves caused by practice swing near the ball. Ball is replaced on original spot and stroke is made.

2. Ball moves caused by practice swing accidentally hitting the ball. Ball is placed on original spot and stroke is made.

3. Ball moves at address when it is accidentally touched. Ball is placed on original spot and stroke is made.

I don't have the right answer, but it on my phone if I need clarification. 

 

It's easily remedied, stop swinging the club so close to the ball.  For reference, I been playing since the 90s, and before I address the ball, I take a practice swing but never near enough that I could hit my ball.  For that reason I've never needed to know the rule.  Just saying... LOL 

[SNIPERBBB]

Look at rule 9-4

[Hawkeye77]

Yep, check out Rule 9. Sounds like someone heard about the rule re the green and was taking it too far, or just believes you can do that anyway, lol. 

[Augster]

They are all the same. 1 PS. 

[davep043]

43 minutes ago, SuperSpurs106 said:

Thank you.

 

Is it a one stroke penalty in all three examples?

 

I was speaking to someone yesterday and they said it was no penalty if the player wasn’t deliberately making a stroke at the ball.

This is when you should ask that person to show you the Rule.  There are 4 specific exceptions to the one-stroke penalty mentioned in Rule 9.4, accidentally moving it with a practice swing isn't one of them.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

I know this wasn't what was asked...

 

But remove one variable from the three scenarios. In each of these cases, the ball is not replaced but is played from its new location (even if that new location is 1 mm away). Now it's an additional 1PS for playing from the wrong place, right? 

 

I.e. the Lowry issue at The Open where he inadvertently moved his ball a few dimples with his practice stroke, didn't realize it had moved and thus didn't replace it, so it was 1PS for moving it and 1PS for playing it from there without replacing it.

 

Is that correct?

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I know this wasn't what was asked...

 

But remove one variable from the three scenarios. In each of these cases, the ball is not replaced but is played from its new location (even if that new location is 1 mm away). Now it's an additional 1PS for playing from the wrong place, right? 

 

I.e. the Lowry issue at The Open where he inadvertently moved his ball a few dimples with his practice stroke, didn't realize it had moved and thus didn't replace it, so it was 1PS for moving it and 1PS for playing it from there without replacing it.

 

Is that correct?

The outcome is correct - two penalty strokes incurred.  But the analysis is not quite right.  The player breached Rule 9.4 (ball in play moved on fairway), one penalty stroke.  Ball not replaced and played from the "new" place, which is playing from a wrong place (Rule 14.7) which is a penalty of two strokes.  But via Rule 1.3(4), Applying Penalties to Multiple Breaches of the Rules, with no intervening event, the player gets only the higher-level penalty, ie, two strokes in this case.

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The outcome is correct - two penalty strokes incurred.  But the analysis is not quite right.  The player breached Rule 9.4 (ball in play moved on fairway), one penalty stroke.  Ball not replaced and played from the "new" place, which is playing from a wrong place (Rule 14.7) which is a penalty of two strokes.  But via Rule 1.3(4), Applying Penalties to Multiple Breaches of the Rules, with no intervening event, the player gets only the higher-level penalty, ie, two strokes in this case.

 

Excellent, thanks! I hadn't realized either that wrong place was 2PS, nor that you would take only the higher-level penalty. 

 

Makes sense. 

[Imp]

13 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I know this wasn't what was asked...

 

But remove one variable from the three scenarios. In each of these cases, the ball is not replaced but is played from its new location (even if that new location is 1 mm away). Now it's an additional 1PS for playing from the wrong place, right? 

 

I.e. the Lowry issue at The Open where he inadvertently moved his ball a few dimples with his practice stroke, didn't realize it had moved and thus didn't replace it, so it was 1PS for moving it and 1PS for playing it from there without replacing it.

 

Is that correct?

If the ball moved through the action of swinging a club near the ball, and the player accepts that it moved and saying "oops, ok, that's a stroke".... why is there a penalty for playing it at it's new spot (again, if the player accepts that it moved and before hitting it from where it now lays)? Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" 

 

I've had my share of duffs where the ball barely moved.... counting that shot, why would someone be penalized for hitting it from the new place, fully accepting the ball moved somewhat?

 

 

[Newby]

31 minutes ago, Imp said:

If the ball moved through the action of swinging a club near the ball, and the player accepts that it moved and saying "oops, ok, that's a stroke".... why is there a penalty for playing it at it's new spot (again, if the player accepts that it moved and before hitting it from where it now lays)? Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" 

 

I've had my share of duffs where the ball barely moved.... counting that shot, why would someone be penalized for hitting it from the new place, fully accepting the ball moved somewhat?

 

 

How do you differentiate between whether or not the lie has improved? Has the player been 'advantaged' by playing from the wrong place?

[SNIPERBBB]

19 minutes ago, Imp said:

If the ball moved through the action of swinging a club near the ball, and the player accepts that it moved and saying "oops, ok, that's a stroke".... why is there a penalty for playing it at it's new spot (again, if the player accepts that it moved and before hitting it from where it now lays)? Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" 

 

I've had my share of duffs where the ball barely moved.... counting that shot, why would someone be penalized for hitting it from the new place, fully accepting the ball moved somewhat?

 

 

You would have to count that movement as a stroke. Then you would also have to determine the stroke was made legally. If the stroke wasnt legal, you could incur the general penalty.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

If the ball moved through the action of swinging a club near the ball, and the player accepts that it moved and saying "oops, ok, that's a stroke".... why is there a penalty for playing it at it's new spot (again, if the player accepts that it moved and before hitting it from where it now lays)? Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" 

 

I've had my share of duffs where the ball barely moved.... counting that shot, why would someone be penalized for hitting it from the new place, fully accepting the ball moved somewhat?

 

 

The player doesn't get to choose whether they made a stroke or not, it is a question of fact.

Was the player intending to make a stroke at the ball? If the player intends to make a stroke and swings, then the stroke counts and the ball is in a correct place regardless of whether it is whiffed or moved. There is no penalty here, just the stroke counts.

By contrast, if the player was not intending to make a stroke but their actions accidentally moved their ball, then there is no stroke, but there is a 9.4 penalty for moving their ball in play and the ball is currently in a wrong place. If the player replaces and plays, there is one stroke penalty and that latter stroke counts. If the player fails to replace before playing, the one stroke penalty becomes a total penalty of 2 strokes, as laid out above.

Edited July 23 by antip

[Imp]

"Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" "

 

Ok. Yes it is. Figured as much but wanted to be sure.

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, Imp said:

"Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" "

 

Ok. Yes it is. Figured as much but wanted to be sure.

For better or worse, this depends on the player's intent, and on his integrity.  The definition of Stroke is clear enough:

"But a stroke has not been made if the player:

.....

Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke."

[nsxguy]

On 7/23/2025 at 9:00 AM, Imp said:

"Is it solely centered around "intent" and "definition of a stroke?" "

 

Ok. Yes it is. Figured as much but wanted to be sure.

 

Yup. W/o intent, the player has moved his ball in play and must replace it.

 

Same thing applies (intent) in the teeing area and on the green

 

EXCEPT there is no penalty in those 2 instances.

 

In the teeing area, the player can tee it up again (or not) and play from a different spot IN the teeing area.

 

And on the green, the player must replace the ball on the spot.

 

If he doesn't replace it, I believe he's played from a "wrong place" and suffers the same 2-stroke wrong place penalty as discussed earlier.

[Strategery]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

W/o intent, the player has moved his ball in play and must replace it.

 

There is some weirdness here. Suppose the ball has been moved a millionth of a millimeter. It's not possible to move to original spot, yet you incur 14.7 which is 2 strokes if you don't try to replace. If you at least acknowledge that you moved it and make a lame attempt at non-replacement, you incur just 9.4 which is 1 stroke.

 

I'm left questioning the merit of the 2-stroke general penalty. 

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, Strategery said:

 

There is some weirdness here. Suppose the ball has been moved a millionth of a millimeter. It's not possible to move to original spot, yet you incur 14.7 which is 2 strokes if you don't try to replace. If you at least acknowledge that you moved it and make a lame attempt at non-replacement, you incur just 9.4 which is 1 stroke.

 

I'm left questioning the merit of the 2-stroke general penalty. 

Perhaps you haven't read the Rule:

"If the ball might have moved but this is not known or virtually certain, it is treated as not having moved and must be played as it lies."

If its moved as little as you say, can you really determine (with 95% certainty or better) that it actually HAS moved?  Maybe the Definition of Moved can clear this up:

"When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so)"

A millionth of a millimeter?  Really?  If you can tell that it has moved, replace it.  If you can't tell for sure, it hasn't Moved.

 

As for two strokes being too much, the Penalty is intended to be greater than the potential advantage gained.  IF you REPLACE a moved ball, you haven't gained any advantage, so one stroke is enough.  If it has moved, you MIGHT have an advantage that could lead to a stroke improvement, so two strokes is merited.  The Rules don't try to ascertain how great an advantage you gained and assess fractional strokes.  The Rules aren't going to define how far the movement has to be to go from one stroke to two, if you move it and don't replace it, you get two.

[nsxguy]

20 hours ago, Strategery said:

 

There is some weirdness here. Suppose the ball has been moved a millionth of a millimeter. It's not possible to move to original spot, yet you incur 14.7 which is 2 strokes if you don't try to replace. If you at least acknowledge that you moved it and make a lame attempt at non-replacement, you incur just 9.4 which is 1 stroke.

 

I'm left questioning the merit of the 2-stroke general penalty. 

 

A millionth of a millimeter wouldn't be visible to the naked eye, which is part of the test.

[Schulzmc]

In Lowry’s case it’s hard to imagine “replacing” that ball. It literally turned about 1/4”. I agree he should have received the 1 stroke penalty for causing the ball to move. It clearly moved enough to be seen with the naked eye, and his swing clearly hit a twig that extended to where the ball was sitting causing the rotation. But that he now played from a “wrong place” is a bit ridiculous. Would reaching down and turning his ball 1/4” make any difference? Would it truly now be back in the identical place? It also appeared to shift 1/4” deeper into the grass. How does he lift it a bit to recreate the lie? The fact that he received two strokes seems excessive.

[Newby]

23 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

In Lowry’s case it’s hard to imagine “replacing” that ball. It literally turned about 1/4”. I agree he should have received the 1 stroke penalty for causing the ball to move. It clearly moved enough to be seen with the naked eye, and his swing clearly hit a twig that extended to where the ball was sitting causing the rotation. But that he now played from a “wrong place” is a bit ridiculous. Would reaching down and turning his ball 1/4” make any difference? Would it truly now be back in the identical place? It also appeared to shift 1/4” deeper into the grass. How does he lift it a bit to recreate the lie? The fact that he received two strokes seems excessive.

Where do you draw the line?

3/8", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1.5", 2", 3"?

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Would reaching down and turning his ball 1/4” make any difference?

 

It would satisfy the "replace the ball" step, yes.

 

The ball was played from a wrong place, making @Newby's question to you the operative thing.

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Where do you draw the line?

3/8", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1.5", 2", 3"?

I understand the issue. So simply the act of “replacing” is enough?  

 

I would say if the movement changed the lie or ability to play the shot in any material way then of course it needs to be replaced. Short of that I am not sure failure to replace is deserving of a penalty. And I understand there is something subjective in what I just said. But we allow some subjectivity in other rules (“Best guess” at where the ball last crossed into the penalty area, etc.) all the time.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I would say if the movement changed the lie or ability to play the shot in any material way then of course it needs to be replaced. Short of that I am not sure failure to replace is deserving of a penalty.

 

I'm not sure you understood the point of @Newby's post.

 

At what point — whether by distance or "how much" the lie was affected or any other factors — would you have to replace it versus just playing it from the spot it moved to?

 

The current rule is simple: you replace it if it moves. If it moved, it came to rest in a different spot, so you have to put it back.

 

Is that spot likely to be exactly where it was, especially if it settles down a little? No, but then you are covered by the best estimate or best judgment language in the ROG. And by doing so, you've shown an effort to replace it. It applies to all situations, without a grey area hinted at by @Newby.

 

Good rules are clear where they can be. This is one of those times.

[Strategery]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

A millionth of a millimeter wouldn't be visible to the naked eye, which is part of the test.

Pedantic.

Moved a visible but insignificant amount.

You "move" it back, zero effect; get 1 stroke for moving.

You don't "move" it back, zero effect; get 2 strokes for not moving.

 

 

[sui generis]

50 minutes ago, Strategery said:

Pedantic.

Moved a visible but insignificant amount.

You "move" it back, zero effect; get 1 stroke for moving.

You don't "move" it back, zero effect; get 2 strokes for not moving.

 

 

That's it. Player's choice . . . replace the ball for one penalty stroke or don't replace it for two.

[davep043]

10 hours ago, Strategery said:

Pedantic.

Moved a visible but insignificant amount.

You "move" it back, zero effect; get 1 stroke for moving.

You don't "move" it back, zero effect; get 2 strokes for not moving.

 

 

so write us a rule, at what distance or what amount of improvement does the wrong place penalty kick in.  make it something that can be interpreted consistently by every golfer.  

[Schulzmc]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I'm not sure you understood the point of @Newby's post.

 

 

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Is that spot likely to be exactly where it was, especially if it settles down a little? No, but then you are covered by the best estimate or best judgment language in the ROG.

 

No - I do understand the point. We are just introducing “best estimate or best judgement” in a different place. You and Newby as to whether you have replaced it in the right place. Me as to whether the movement materially affected your next shot.