Moving the ball on the fairway

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

so write us a rule, at what distance or what amount of improvement does the wrong place penalty kick in.  make it something that can be interpreted consistently by every golfer.  

How about this?

 

If, in the act of taking a practice swing, the player inadvertently causes the ball to move, the player is assessed one penalty stroke and the ball is in play at the new location.

[st1800e]

49 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

How about this?

 

If, in the act of taking a practice swing, the player inadvertently causes the ball to move, the player is assessed one penalty stroke and the ball is in play at the new location.

What if the practice swing , toe of the club hits the ball, moves the ball from the trees to an open spot with a clear shot? 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

No - I do understand the point. We are just introducing “best estimate or best judgement” in a different place. You and Newby as to whether you have replaced it in the right place. Me as to whether the movement materially affected your next shot.

No. The ball moved and must be replaced. The player is given grace if they use their best estimate when dropping or replacing or estimating spots where a ball crossed or something, not whether a shot is actually affected.

 

2 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

How about this?

 

If, in the act of taking a practice swing, the player inadvertently causes the ball to move, the player is assessed one penalty stroke and the ball is in play at the new location.

As @st1800e said, what if their practice swing moved the ball into a good spot? Or a terrible spot? It wasn’t a stroke, and we can only advance the ball in almost all cases by making a stroke at it. A practice swing is not a stroke.

 

I saw a player making practice swings near his ball on a chip shot one time and for whatever reason he hit the ball and it lipped out and sat a foot away from the hole. He immediately called the stroke on himself and replaced the ball. You can’t advance the ball in that way without making a stroke.

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, Strategery said:

Pedantic.

Moved a visible but insignificant amount.

You "move" it back, zero effect; get 1 stroke for moving.

You don't "move" it back, zero effect; get 2 strokes for not moving.

 

 

 

Pedantic ?

 

YOU are the one who said a "millionth of a millimeter". I just told you why that wouldn't matter.

 

OK, so you tell me. How many millimeters in a "significant". The ruling bodies suggested the naked eye test, i.e. not a set distance, just "can a human see it with the naked eye.

 

As for "zero effect", sure, in LOWRY'S case, you'd probably be right. What about when it moves 4 inches ? 4 feet ? 4 yards ? 

 

[Jeff58]

To clarify please -

 

If my ball is in play, and I intentionally pick it up and move it, then play from the new location, what is the penalty?

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

To clarify please -

 

If my ball is in play, and I intentionally pick it up and move it, then play from the new location, what is the penalty?

 

In rules parlance… 1 + 2 = 2.

 

The penalty is two strokes. One for moving your ball at rest when you're not allowed to, two for playing from the wrong place. But because it's the same act, they basically take the higher penalty.

[Strategery]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

in LOWRY'S case, you'd probably be right

Totally agree with you.

[Strategery]

4 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

To clarify please -

 

If my ball is in play, and I intentionally pick it up and move it, then play from the new location, what is the penalty?

Egregious breach of rules. DQ.

[davep043]

9 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

How about this?

 

If, in the act of taking a practice swing, the player inadvertently causes the ball to move, the player is assessed one penalty stroke and the ball is in play at the new location.

Ah yes, the rules need more complications and exceptions, and a new definition.  If you move it, you must replace it, EXCEPT if you move it with a Practice Swing (define this) you play it as it lies.  But if you move it with your club any other time, you replace it.  Nah, its fine the way it is.

[Strategery]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Ah yes, the rules need more complications and exceptions, and a new definition.  If you move it, you must replace it, EXCEPT if you move it with a Practice Swing (define this) you play it as it lies.  But if you move it with your club any other time, you replace it.  Nah, its fine the way it is.

Haha, moving during a practice swing sometimes is ok and sometimes not. What is a practice swing? When is it ok? It's all so laughably tedious to the casual observer.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Strategery said:

Haha, moving during a practice swing sometimes is ok and sometimes not. What is a practice swing? When is it ok? It's all so laughably tedious to the casual observer.

 

It was a practice swing in THIS case, but it doesn't have to be.

 

It's moving the ball in play anywhere other than on the green or in the teeing area. He!!, even *I* can remember that. 

[davep043]

18 hours ago, Strategery said:

Haha, moving during a practice swing sometimes is ok and sometimes not. What is a practice swing? When is it ok? It's all so laughably tedious to the casual observer.

You may be right, if someone only wants to play "casual" golf, it might seem tedious to learn the rules governing the game.  Just like learning the rules of baseball or football (either kind) if you play those sports casually.  But then to come to a Rules forum and complain that the rules are tedious may not be the best course of action.  Just ignore the rules and play as you like.

 

 

 

[Strategery]

27 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You may be right, if someone only wants to play "casual" golf, it might seem tedious to learn the rules governing the game.

Glad we agree.

 

Golf is mostly played by casual players. Rules are for competition, therefore largely just a collection of amusing pedantry to most.

I'm an experienced player. I play with all levels. Just relaying what I see and hear week in week out.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Strategery said:

Golf is mostly played by casual players. Rules are for competition, therefore largely just a collection of amusing pedantry to most.

I'm an experienced player. I play with all levels. Just relaying what I see and hear week in week out.

 

To what end?

 

Also, not for nothing… I looked for PDF versions of the rules of these major sports:

• NHL Rules - 234 pages 
• NBA Rules - 74 pages
• NFL Rules - 85 pages
• MLB Rules - 188 pages

Casual players of those sports don't know the rules all that well, either. And those rules are extensive and sometimes complicated, too, and they play on relatively uniform surfaces/courts/fields!

[SNIPERBBB]

I'm kinda surprised NBA rules are that short ...the high school basketball rules is 88 pages though the last 8 or show pages is ads. Not that anyone actually considers NBA actual basketball. It's basketball's version of a scramble 

Edited July 27 by SNIPERBBB

[WesternRacing]

I had this exact thing happen to someone in my foursome during a round this morning.  Practice swing, the ball moved about 6 inches in the fairway.  I did the proverbial ‘well now you’re lying two in the fairway’, to which he grunted, stepped forward addressed the ball and hit it to the green.  After which I did the proverbial ‘well now you’re lying four on the green…’

[tatertot]

3 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I'm kinda surprised NBA rules are that short ...the high school basketball rules is 88 pages though the last 8 or show pages is ads. Not that anyone actually considers NBA actual basketball. It's basketball's version of a scramble 

Well, the NBA has 2 rule books - one for superstars, one for the masses. I'm imagining the Superstar rulebook is much smaller, though.

[JMB3]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

To what end?

 

Also, not for nothing… I looked for PDF versions of the rules of these major sports:

• NHL Rules - 234 pages 
• NBA Rules - 74 pages
• NFL Rules - 85 pages
• MLB Rules - 188 pages

Casual players of those sports don't know the rules all that well, either. And those rules are extensive and sometimes complicated, too, and they play on relatively uniform surfaces/courts/fields!

Even pros don’t need to know the precise definitions for rules in those sports though—the games are officiated at every level. Golf is very unique.

 

As for the rules in question, I find them odd.  There are exceptions for the green and teeing area but not between?  And the “what if you hit it to a better area” doesn’t compute with me.  If you were assessed a stroke for hitting the ball with a practice swing, and you played it from the new spot, I don’t see the advantage.  

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

There are exceptions for the green and teeing area but not between?

 

There are five areas of the course. There are slightly different rules for each.

 

19 minutes ago, JMB3 said:

If you were assessed a stroke for hitting the ball with a practice swing, and you played it from the new spot, I don’t see the advantage.  

 

You're only to advance the ball with a stroke, and a stroke has the intent of being a stroke. A practice swing is not a stroke.

 

Almost fundamental to the game.

[davep043]

11 hours ago, JMB3 said:

There are exceptions for the green and teeing area but not between?

The exception for the Teeing Area is simple, the ball is not In Play until a stroke has been made to put it in play.  You can do lots of stuff to a ball not in play, including practicing putting and chipping between play of two holes, you can kick it, juggle it, throw it in a lake.  Most Rules apply only when the ball is actually in play.

And the Putting Green is a very special place in the rules, you can do lots of things there that you're not allowed to do elsewhere.  This wasn't always the case, you weren't allowed to lift and clean a ball on the green, or to repair pitch marks in your line, until about 1960.  Until 2019, you WERE penalized if you accidentally caused your ball to move on the green.  These changes came about, in general, because the advances in agronomy and maintenance practices changed the conditions on the greens, becoming softer (with irrigation systems) and smoother and faster (mowers, soil types, etc.).  If you cannot determine whether natural forces of the player caused a ball to move, it seems unreasonable to penalize the player, so that penalty was removed.

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 hours ago, JMB3 said:

 

There are exceptions for the green and teeing area but not between? 

 

 

Yes, the teeing area and the green are two areas that you are allowed to move the ball. I.e. on the teeing area if you've put your ball on the ground (or a tee) and you realize you don't like where you'll be taking your stance, you can pick it up and move it. On the green you're allowed to pick up your ball as well. So in both cases, an accidental movement of the ball is not penalized, because a deliberate movement (picking up) the ball is likewise not penalized. 

 

In other areas of the course, moving a ball in play is only allowed in very specific circumstances, usually as part of either free or penalty relief. Other than those cases, you can't cause it to move. So in those cases, accidental movement *is* penalized. 

 

58 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The exception for the Teeing Area is simple, the ball is not In Play until a stroke has been made to put it in play.  You can do lots of stuff to a ball not in play, including practicing putting and chipping between play of two holes, you can kick it, juggle it, throw it in a lake.  Most Rules apply only when the ball is actually in play.

 

 

Question... I saw [somewhere online] that the rule relating to the teeing area allows you to move the ball even if it is in play. For example, if you take a stroke and nearly whiff the ball and it rolls 6" off the tee--or if you take a stroke and it rockets into a tree and ricochets right back to your feet--you're allowed to retee without penalty. Of course that previous stroke must be counted as a stroke (you're now hitting 2), but you don't have to "play it as it lies". 

 

Was that wrong?

[Newby]

18 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Question... I saw [somewhere online] that the rule relating to the teeing area allows you to move the ball even if it is in play. For example, if you take a stroke and nearly whiff the ball and it rolls 6" off the tee--or if you take a stroke and it rockets into a tree and ricochets right back to your feet--you're allowed to retee without penalty. Of course that previous stroke must be counted as a stroke (you're now hitting 2), but you don't have to "play it as it lies". 

 

Was that wrong?

See Rule 14.6a

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 minutes ago, Newby said:

See Rule 14.6a

 

 

 

IMHO that doesn't really cover it... That's related to where you play from in a case where the rules allow or require you to play from the "previous place". I.e. if you're taking a S&D penalty, it doesn't mean that you have to hit from the exact [estimated] spot of your previous stroke unless the previous stroke was on the green. On the tee you can play it from anywhere in the teeing area, and in the general area the previous spot is a reference point and you have a 1CL no nearer the hole area to drop within. 

 

It appears rule 6.2b(6) is what I'm talking about. Any time your ball lies in the teeing area, even if it is already in play from a previous stroke, you are able to move it w/o penalty, including placing it on a tee, to play your next stroke from within the teeing area. 

[antip]

33 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yes, the teeing area and the green are two areas that you are allowed to move the ball. I.e. on the teeing area if you've put your ball on the ground (or a tee) and you realize you don't like where you'll be taking your stance, you can pick it up and move it. On the green you're allowed to pick up your ball as well. So in both cases, an accidental movement of the ball is not penalized, because a deliberate movement (picking up) the ball is likewise not penalized. 

 

In other areas of the course, moving a ball in play is only allowed in very specific circumstances, usually as part of either free or penalty relief. Other than those cases, you can't cause it to move. So in those cases, accidental movement *is* penalized. 

 

 

Question... I saw [somewhere online] that the rule relating to the teeing area allows you to move the ball even if it is in play. For example, if you take a stroke and nearly whiff the ball and it rolls 6" off the tee--or if you take a stroke and it rockets into a tree and ricochets right back to your feet--you're allowed to retee without penalty. Of course that previous stroke must be counted as a stroke (you're now hitting 2), but you don't have to "play it as it lies". 

 

Was that wrong?

The Teeing Area is a magic place. Have a read of Rule 6.2b.

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, Newby said:

See Rule 6.2 & Rule 14.6a.

 

Edit: I tried to edit the post above but kept getting a 'REQUIRED' message and could't get any further

 

[Newby]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

IMHO that doesn't really cover it... That's related to where you play from in a case where the rules allow or require you to play from the "previous place". I.e. if you're taking a S&D penalty, it doesn't mean that you have to hit from the exact [estimated] spot of your previous stroke unless the previous stroke was on the green. On the tee you can play it from anywhere in the teeing area, and in the general area the previous spot is a reference point and you have a 1CL no nearer the hole area to drop within. 

 

It appears rule 6.2b(6) is what I'm talking about. Any time your ball lies in the teeing area, even if it is already in play from a previous stroke, you are able to move it w/o penalty, including placing it on a tee, to play your next stroke from within the teeing area. 

See my corrected post above. I thought I had added 6.2 to the original but it seems not to have worked.

[JMB3]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yes, the teeing area and the green are two areas that you are allowed to move the ball. I.e. on the teeing area if you've put your ball on the ground (or a tee) and you realize you don't like where you'll be taking your stance, you can pick it up and move it. On the green you're allowed to pick up your ball as well. So in both cases, an accidental movement of the ball is not penalized, because a deliberate movement (picking up) the ball is likewise not penalized. 

 

In other areas of the course, moving a ball in play is only allowed in very specific circumstances, usually as part of either free or penalty relief. Other than those cases, you can't cause it to move. So in those cases, accidental movement *is* penalized. 

 

This is a helpful explanation, thanks.

[JMB3]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

There are five areas of the course. There are slightly different rules for each.

 

 

You're only to advance the ball with a stroke, and a stroke has the intent of being a stroke. A practice swing is not a stroke.

 

Almost fundamental to the game.

Fair point on the definition of “stroke.”  I think my bigger issue with the rule was what I perceived to selective exceptions, but the explanation from @betarhoalphadelta makes sense.  

[davep043]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

It appears rule 6.2b(6) is what I'm talking about. Any time your ball lies in the teeing area, even if it is already in play from a previous stroke, you are able to move it w/o penalty, including placing it on a tee, to play your next stroke from within the teeing area. 

You're right, its one of the few exceptions to Rule 9.4b.  9.4a, first bullet point, covers the issue of replacing it, and 9.4b, Exception 1 covers the concern about a penalty.  There ARE a few situations where you're allowed to lift or move a ball in play.