When to push against the ground?

[unskinnybop99]

Every video Dr. Greg Rose states most amateurs need to push against the ground earlier. Does anyone know any drills to check/fix this?

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

There is no drill.  You have to shift left earlier and correctly with a bit of down (1-2”) 

 

It’s called ground REACTION force.  That means if you actively push you’re doing the opposite of what you need to…or at least the wrong time.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, unskinnybop99 said:

Every video Dr. Greg Rose states most amateurs need to push against the ground earlier. Does anyone know any drills to check/fix this?

 

 

 

he wants you to do it earlier so it has time to reach the clubhead. That’s what it all comes down to. 

[getitdaily]

The answer is easy and complicated...the easy part is you're pushing into the ground the entire swing. 

 

The nuanced/complicated is this...

 

Somewhere between p2 and p3 you are pushing pretty hard into the ground with your trail foot. This is to start the motion to shift back target side. Somewhere between p3.5 and p4 you shift back to the lead side and you really push into the lead foot (I call it loading the vertifal) because then between p5 and p6 you really push up and away from the target. 

 

It's one of the more difficult things to do correctly. I suggest getting something like a downshift board to help you with shift timing and feel and then you can toy with how much push down (whatever you think thenpush down is...it's more)

[iacas]

I disagree with Monte on the “active” part. I have to get a number of people to actively do things. The ground is just a platform, so you have to push to get that reaction. If you’re forward properly that’s the time to “jump” with the lead leg. That’s an active thing.

 

One of the things Dave never seems to look at is… I bet the time to impact isn’t as different as “pre-P5” in the long driver and “P6” in the shorter hitter looks. The long driver is getting to impact in like 0.1 servings from there… and the short hitter might in almost the same time. If the short hitter did it at P4.3 she’d have peaked the speed out to the club ~P6 most likely!

[sundaypins]

11 hours ago, unskinnybop99 said:

Every video Dr. Greg Rose states most amateurs need to push against the ground earlier. 

 

We always move against, so we can extend from, the ground.   Move early, extend late.  

[Mark58]

My apologies, I have not yet learned how to imbed videos here. All of these you can find on You-tube.

 

All of the Kwon step drills are designed to help you use the ground better. His "shurn videos" (shift-turn) are about backswing and downswing sequence. The good stuff is hard to find as his videos are very long.

 

AMG has a very short step drill which I have been doing. Take normal stance and move your lead foot a bit closer to trail foot. Note: not feet together. that's too narrow. Take your backswing and at about P3 take a step forward and swing,. You can even clip a ball with this drill. You can find it in their more recent videos. 

 

Finally, Smart2move (force plate company) has a wonderful series of lessons and drills with former long drive champion Jason Zuback. They include lateral, torque/rotation and vertical force videos. There is a lot of information in these videos but I like the presentation.

[airjammer]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I disagree with Monte on the “active” part. I have to get a number of people to actively do things. The ground is just a platform, so you have to push to get that reaction. If you’re forward properly that’s the time to “jump” with the lead leg. That’s an active thing.

 

One of the things Dave never seems to look at is… I bet the time to impact isn’t as different as “pre-P5” in the long driver and “P6” in the shorter hitter looks. The long driver is getting to impact in like 0.1 servings from there… and the short hitter might in almost the same time. If the short hitter did it at P4.3 she’d have peaked the speed out to the club ~P6 most likely!

Steve Furlonger who is a GRF expert that is now in Thailand told me that verticals can never been too early. Even early extenders have late vertical timing. 
 

In the grand scheme of things, people that have 3d force plates haven’t really put out a wealth of content. I haven’t got a single person I’ve asked to explain to me their thoughts on how it seems like every long driver preaches “speed out front” and long hitters like Drew Cooper say they don’t hit the gas until p5ish but all of their GRF forces max out at or before that point. For Justin James to peak where he does, he must be jumping as soon as he lands left as Dana would say. 

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Steve Furlonger who is a GRF expert that is now in Thailand told me that verticals can never been too early. Even early extenders have late vertical timing.

 

That's not really what I said. Also, I disagree - if the slow swinger peaks her verticals at P4.3, the energy will have gotten out to the club and then out OF the club by the time she eventually gets down to the ball. If her sole intent was to do it earlier, she could do it too early, and it'd be a far worse swing than she has now.

 

Imagine someone swinging a driver at 65 MPH and someone swinging it at 130. The last 0.1 seconds of their downswings are going to cover a vastly different distance. So when we judge how "early" something is solely by the Ps, we're missing the actual literal time from impact.

 

My point was only that the slow woman is not as different as calling it P4.3 vs. P6 makes it appear.

 

47 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I haven’t got a single person I’ve asked to explain to me their thoughts on how it seems like every long driver preaches “speed out front”

 

It's a feel. You can feel like your hands are moving faster through impact even though we know they all slow down before impact as, if they didn't, the clubhead would pass like 18" over the golf ball.

 

47 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I haven’t got a single person I’ve asked to explain to me their thoughts on how it seems like every long driver preaches “speed out front” and long hitters like Drew Cooper say they don’t hit the gas until p5ish but all of their GRF forces max out at or before that point. For Justin James to peak where he does, he must be jumping as soon as he lands left as Dana would say. 

 

Feel ain't real. Nothing more to it than that.

[getitdaily]

57 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Steve Furlonger who is a GRF expert that is now in Thailand told me that verticals can never been too early. Even early extenders have late vertical timing. 
 

In the grand scheme of things, people that have 3d force plates haven’t really put out a wealth of content. I haven’t got a single person I’ve asked to explain to me their thoughts on how it seems like every long driver preaches “speed out front” and long hitters like Drew Cooper say they don’t hit the gas until p5ish but all of their GRF forces max out at or before that point. For Justin James to peak where he does, he must be jumping as soon as he lands left as Dana would say. 

Probably the hardest thing to get right in the golf swing...when to push and in what direction. 

 

You can drill this stuff all you want but putting it all together and getting the timing right is not easy. I would imagine it's easy-ish if youre on force plates and bunch and you can get instant FEEL feedback with data and then adjust. 

 

But trying to get this stuff right without force plates and without someone who has force plates is super difficult.  

 

Im not even sure it's something anyone who's not a sub 5 cap should even focus on...but I won't die on that hill. 

 

I just know from personal trial and error (and I've been on force plates) that getting this right is a hard path to tackle without measurement devices. I think getting shift-turn timing is far more important for most golfers than increasing force/pressure and then getting out of those forces. It's a recipe for standing up through impact of you dont know what you're doing.

[dpc]

As for drills, Dr. Rose provides some in other videos.  In some he has the player with their arms in the air squat down and jump, and simultaneously throw their arms down.  I think he may have one where the player is using a medicine ball.  In others he uses his stool on wheels and has the player push off with their lead leg in a manner to cause some rotation in the stool as it's rolling.  Then he has the player add the movement of throwing their arms down while initiating the push.

 

[airjammer]

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's not really what I said. Also, I disagree - if the slow swinger peaks her verticals at P4.3, the energy will have gotten out to the club and then out OF the club by the time she eventually gets down to the ball. If her sole intent was to do it earlier, she could do it too early, and it'd be a far worse swing than she has now.

 

Imagine someone swinging a driver at 65 MPH and someone swinging it at 130. The last 0.1 seconds of their downswings are going to cover a vastly different distance. So when we judge how "early" something is solely by the Ps, we're missing the actual literal time from impact.

 

My point was only that the slow woman is not as different as calling it P4.3 vs. P6 makes it appear.

 

 

It's a feel. You can feel like your hands are moving faster through impact even though we know they all slow down before impact as, if they didn't, the clubhead would pass like 18" over the golf ball.

 

 

Feel ain't real. Nothing more to it than that.

I understood what you wrote I was just stating what I’ve personally been told by Steve Furlonger.
 

I’ve thought something kinda similar about the timings but more on the backswing side. Basically, is the earlier vertical force timing a result of the golfers backswing length? A typical long driver’s backswing is longer than a typical tour pro therefore in theory the long driver can apply the force at the same time as the tour pro but his would appear sooner just because his arms and club as farther to travel in the same amount of time. 

 

Jacobs 3d says people do exactly what they say they do in his findings so maybe the jury is still out on that one. 
 

As someone with a shorter swing, I just find it fascinating that instructors tell you not to the rush from the top but in reality you better rush from the top of your never hit your grf windows…reality everyone has to rush. 

[iacas]

Just now, airjammer said:

I understood what you wrote I was just stating what I’ve personally been told by Steve Furlonger.

 

Okay, but it really didn't speak to what I said, so I think you can see why I sought to clarify farther given that you quoted me and immediately said something. Steve's also not the only GRF expert.

 

Just now, airjammer said:

Jacobs 3d says people do exactly what they say they do in his findings so maybe the jury is still out on that one.

 

Ha, well, I'd have to hear the context of that kind of comment… We could each give a thousand examples of that not being the case. The jury long ago returned a verdict on that one.

 

Just now, airjammer said:

As someone with a shorter swing, I just find it fascinating that instructors tell you not to the rush from the top but in reality you better rush from the top of your never hit your grf windows…reality everyone has to rush. 

 

Poorer players have to rush because they're late. Get back early, get forward early, and you're in the best position to push the hardest for the longest amount of time.

[airjammer]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Okay, but it really didn't speak to what I said, so I think you can see why I sought to clarify farther given that you quoted me and immediately said something. Steve's also not the only GRF expert.

 

 

Ha, well, I'd have to hear the context of that kind of comment… We could each give a thousand examples of that not being the case. The jury long ago returned a verdict on that one.

 

 

Poorer players have to rush because they're late. Get back early, get forward early, and you're in the best position to push the hardest for the longest amount of time.

I agree but you still have to push from the top which is the opposite of instructors saying let the club do the work or don’t do anything until p6. The answer is like you said essentially get in better positions   

[fowlerscousin]

Im not sure when, but if you are turning and having a correct swing path for the ball flight in mind, the push from the ground will visually look to be at impact, if your hips are too forward it will appear to be "goat humping". I don't think pushing off the ground is something to do consciously, even while practicing 

[GoGoErky]

18 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I agree but you still have to push from the top which is the opposite of instructors saying let the club do the work or don’t do anything until p6. The answer is like you said essentially get in better positions   

Do you have names of any instructor who says let the club do the work or don’t do anything til p6. I don’t recall any saying that and would be interested in watching their content 

[golferdude54]

Isn’t arms lagging behind in transition a bigger/more common problem than not pushing off the ground enough?

 

Won’t pushing it more just leave the arms even further behind if the arms aren’t fixed first?

[airjammer]

6 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Do you have names of any instructor who says let the club do the work or don’t do anything til p6. I don’t recall any saying that and would be interested in watching their content 

Over the years there has been plenty who have said let the club do the work.  You can google the term as it’s still being taught today. 
 

It’s in the same breathe of “don’t do anything from p6” which I believe Monte said in one of his video series I watched many moons ago. 
 

Obviously nobody actually does that…it’s just a feel and it may work for a period of time but it’s incorrect. It’s typically used for people who come over the top as teaching someone to separate the upper and lower halves tends to be challenging. 

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I agree but you still have to push from the top which is the opposite of instructors saying let the club do the work or don’t do anything until p6.

 

I haven't seen anyone here (or anywhere, really, recently) saying that you don't do anything until P6. Even the player who peaks at P6 (which is not as late as Greg makes it sound — I realize now I said Dave earlier, oops) is beginning to push much earlier than P6. That's just the peak.

 

16 minutes ago, fowlerscousin said:

I don't think pushing off the ground is something to do consciously, even while practicing 

 

Hard disagree there. If you don't do it, you need to learn to do it.

 

Just now, airjammer said:

Over the years there has been plenty who have said let the club do the work.  You can google the term as it’s still being taught today.

 

Sure, for things like getting the ball in the air and stuff. You're mixing up a lot of things, it seems like.

 

Just now, airjammer said:

It’s in the same breathe of “don’t do anything from p6” which I believe Monte said in one of his video series I watched many moons ago.

 

Again, context is gonna be important on stuff like that.

 

Just now, airjammer said:

Obviously nobody actually does that…it’s just a feel and it may work for a period of time but it’s incorrect. It’s typically used for people who come over the top as teaching someone to separate the upper and lower halves tends to be challenging. 

 

To try to stay on topic… nobody here is saying don't begin pushing until P6.

[GoGoErky]

15 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Over the years there has been plenty who have said let the club do the work.  You can google the term as it’s still being taught today. 
 

It’s in the same breathe of “don’t do anything from p6” which I believe Monte said in one of his video series I watched many moons ago. 
 

Obviously nobody actually does that…it’s just a feel and it may work for a period of time but it’s incorrect. It’s typically used for people who come over the top as teaching someone to separate the upper and lower halves tends to be challenging. 

You are claiming they are and should be able to provide the names pretty easily.

 

 

[Ty_Webb]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

To try to stay on topic… nobody here is saying don't begin pushing until P6.

 

Not least if you start trying to do something once you get to P6, the ball is long gone by the time you actually do it. The intent to do it has to happen a long time before that point to have it happen then. And how early or late that intent needs to happen will vary according to the current state of the swing of the player in question. Someone who gets it all right already won't need to add any more intent than they already have. Someone who doesn't push up at all needs to feel a lot of it and from pretty early. Someone who does it too early might need to actively try not to push up to get their timing right. 

[airjammer]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

You are claiming they are and should be able to provide the names pretty easily.

 

 

This good enough?

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, airjammer said:

This good enough?

 

Well…

 

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Again, context is gonna be important on stuff like that.

 

This topic is about GRF, and I've not seen anyone saying "let the club do the work" in that context. For getting the ball in the air, for some shallowing maybe, etc. But the context of this topic is GRF, when and how and in what direction you push or unweight or whatever.

 

If someone came into this topic and said "what about all of the instructors who say to use the bounce?" I'd like to think everyone here would say "uhhh, that's not the topic."

 

The club can't "do the work" to move your body. The club's ability to create GRF is very, very small. So, within this context, I've not seen anyone saying that, or saying to do something at P6.

[Ty_Webb]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

The club's ability to create GRF is very, very small.

 

I think it's probably less than that...

[airjammer]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Well…

 

 

This topic is about GRF, and I've not seen anyone saying "let the club do the work" in that context. For getting the ball in the air, for some shallowing maybe, etc. But the context of this topic is GRF, when and how and in what direction you push or unweight or whatever.

 

If someone came into this topic and said "what about all of the instructors who say to use the bounce?" I'd like to think everyone here would say "uhhh, that's not the topic."

 

The club can't "do the work" to move your body. The club's ability to create GRF is very, very small. So, within this context, I've not seen anyone saying that, or saying to do something at P6.

If you are letting the club do the work or letting gravity get the club down before applying the power or anything else that is telling you to delay applying of effort on the downswing is affecting your grfs…is it not?

 

The information we have now may turn out to be wrong in the future by different or more precise instruments but as of now most everything in the golf swing grf is sooner than later and with more force than you think 
 

[Ty_Webb]

7 minutes ago, airjammer said:

If you are letting the club do the work or letting gravity get the club down before applying the power or anything else that is telling you to delay applying of effort on the downswing is affecting your grfs…is it not?

 

The information we have now may turn out to be wrong in the future by different or more precise instruments but as of now most everything in the golf swing grf is sooner than later and with more force than you think 
 

 

I think the only impact the club would have on GRFs would be through you and what you're doing with it. If you let it fall with gravity then it has no effect on GRF. If you are accelerating it upwards (like early on in the backswing or late in the downswing), it's increasing your GRFs. If you're accelerating it downwards more than gravity would, then it's making you lighter and reducing your GRFs. But it's only doing those things reactively to what you're doing to it. It's not causing any of that to happen.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, airjammer said:

If you are letting the club do the work or letting gravity get the club down before applying the power or anything else that is telling you to delay applying of effort on the downswing is affecting your grfs…is it not?

 

Which is why, again, the context is important. If you're talking about the club "doing the work" to shallow the club (it's a feel that can work for people), then that's not related to GRF.

 

Context matters.

 

15 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The information we have now may turn out to be wrong in the future by different or more precise instruments but as of now most everything in the golf swing grf is sooner than later and with more force than you think 

 

No, it's not sooner or with more force than I think. 🤣

[onehopstopt]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Imagine someone swinging a driver at 65 MPH and someone swinging it at 130. The last 0.1 seconds of their downswings are going to cover a vastly different distance. So when we judge how "early" something is solely by the Ps, we're missing the actual literal time from impact.

 

This is an interesting point, but I think I could see it going both ways. On the one hand what you're saying makes logical sense. The time between P positions is reduced for a slower swinger, so that golfer might want to apply forces later to give them the same amount of time to propagate.

 

On the other hand, you could probably convince me that forces propagate faster for a faster swing. When I think about doing a motion like this at a slower speed it feels like maybe everything just gets stretched out, but that forces are still applied at the same position.

 

I feel like the best data point here would be to compare peak force for LPGA vs PGA pros. Both sets should have reaasonably optimized timings, but at noticeable different speeds. If the absolute timing side is right I'd expect the LPGA players to peak later in terms of P position, and if the relative timing side is then they should peak at the same time. You might even have that data, I'm not sure.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, onehopstopt said:

This is an interesting point, but I think I could see it going both ways. On the one hand what you're saying makes logical sense. The time between P positions is reduced for a slower swinger, so that golfer might want to apply forces later to give them the same amount of time to propagate.

 

I'm not even necessarily saying they want to do it. Just that the reality is that if both golfers got their peak verticals 0.1 seconds before impact, the club would be at VERY different positions. The long drive guy's club would be a LOT farther from the ball than the slow swinging woman.

 

It's like judging rate of closure. You could have a slow swinger rolling the crap out of the face versus a long driver that has a slow rate of closure, and if you measure it in °/s the slow-swinging face-rolling golfer is often significantly lower than the fast-swinging stable face player (not literally stable, just slower ROC).

 

5 minutes ago, onehopstopt said:

Both sets should have reaasonably optimized timings, but at noticeable different speeds.

 

They don't — you're going to find a lot more LPGA Tour players who are below optimal than a PGA Tour players. The gap is closing, but there's still a gap. Just not as much money in the women's game, which affects the instruction they can get, and honestly the amount of time and effort they have to put in to get to the Tour and keep their cards.

 

5 minutes ago, onehopstopt said:

…  if the relative timing side is then they should peak at the same time. You might even have that data, I'm not sure.

 

Even if you limit it to the PGA Tour, slower swingers peak a bit later. Some are leaving a little speed on the table, but some, per what I'm saying, have to peak later to actually synchronize what they're doing. You can see it in other things, too. Hand speed (grip speed on GEARS) often peaks a bit later if you're looking at it relative to where the shaft is. Get a large enough sample size (some players have a little float load, some are pretty wide throughout) and you'll see some correlation there.

[airjammer]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Which is why, again, the context is important. If you're talking about the club "doing the work" to shallow the club (it's a feel that can work for people), then that's not related to GRF.

 

Context matters.

 

 

No, it's not sooner or with more force than I think. 🤣

 You are only attached to the earth in the golf swing by your feet. Every single movement you make with any bodypart affects grf.