Creating space is bunk!

[Simpsonia]

22 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Thanks.  So just different definitions. But I'd say amgs definition is a little more intuitive considering the use of the term in other contexts of the swing. 

 

Well even AMG's own terminology is slightly misused. They are referring to the wipe as abduction to show their "wipe". But in reality both the good version and then the bad version as shown by Mike (@8.28 in the original AMG video) are both doing abduction of the trail arm, it's just the good version is also lifting the arm at the same time, and the bad version isn't. Which sort of gets back to my original annoyance that there absolutely is abduction and lift of the arms through the release, it's just very minor compared to the amount that comes well after impact in the follow-through. But, you still need the intent to do that lift and abduction early to actually get the arms moving when you need them too. 

 

But yeah we're getting pretty in the pedantic weeds here, there's no real disagreement between Tyler and AMG's methodology, just different terminology. 

Edited July 31 by Simpsonia

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, airjammer said:

If you aren’t allowed to give you opinions or different views or facts this instruction forum about might as well be a new YouTube video list with comments closed.

 

You can share facts and data, you can share your opinion and even argue your opinion against other opinions; what you can't do is try to counter vetted data with your opinions and then expect anyone to take your arguments as valid. If you want to go full agnostic and say "no one knows anything but we might in the future" rather than engaging in discussion in good faith and meeting scrutinized facts with scrutinized facts then you're going to continue to get push back.

 

It's insulting to others to ask them for proof of concepts and concrete examples of something then dismiss them with some new criteria.

 

Most of the things you do when you "discuss" things here are classical logical fallacies whether you realize it or not. It's frustrating to try and have a real interaction with someone who won't agree to basic definitions of words and basic expectations for what constitutes something of merit when sharing facts.

 

Facts: Most golfers have never taken a series of lessons focused on the core elements of the swing, accompanied by the requisite work outside of those lessons to ingrain those elements; as soon as it "feels weird", they're out. You can see the recent "are you a good student" related thread as to why many don't get much out of golf lessons. Most golfers have never had any kind of detailed swing analysis done, and many who do don't put what they're shown into practice. For various reasons many golfers, and many male golfers in particular, think we're capable of reasoning our own way to the perfect swing and believe we're getting to a better place despite our strength or athletic ability only being enough to overcome basic swing flaws on an inconsistent basis, and mostly only on the range with perfect conditions.

 

Most golfers, unlike those who play other sports, didn't start with sound, basic instruction as kids because people have tried to peddle wizardry and magic as the means to a good golf swing instead of simplifying things to core fundamentals as is done in other sports. Part of that also used to be the cost difficulties around even accessing the game, but at this point that's not nearly the blocker it once was.

 

You represent the wizardry sect in perpetuating and holding onto the idea that only Butch Harmon is qualified to instruct, while at the same time believing no one understands the fundamentals of how the swing works, which is some Schrodinger's Golf Swing type of mental gymnastics.

 

Do you understand how wild it is to think one man and the knowledge he's gained in his life outweighs all other avenues of learning and research into the game by all the other people who have studied it and still actively do so, some of those avenues incorporating data from thousands or tens of thousands of swings, on top of studying analysis from capture data that isn't unique to golf but spans the library of biomechanics? We're talking about writing off the insights of people who began with "How does the human body move and what are its limitations?", learned to apply that understanding across multiple sports fields, incorporated them for golf, in some cases even do detailed analysis of the physics of the forces involved, then have that analysis peer-reviewed before they share the findings. That's how we got to G.E.A.R.S., Kwon3D, and all the other 3D capture systems, as well as all of the quality force tracing systems dedicated to golf we now have available. 

 

Your opinion is to the point of saying "In all the world, only Doctor X is qualified to teach people about healthy diets, but that whole medical school thing and those silly biology and anatomy ideas it's based on are a bit suspect".

 

I think that's about all I have the energy for. If you want to keep viewing the world and golf as you do that's your choice, but the data is there if you want to look at it and learn to weigh its validity in a realistic, informed manner.

[airjammer]

9 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

You can share facts and data, you can share your opinion and even argue your opinion against other opinions; what you can't do is try to counter vetted data with your opinions and then expect anyone to take your arguments as valid. If you want to go full agnostic and say "no one knows anything but we might in the future" rather than engaging in discussion in good faith and meeting scrutinized facts with scrutinized facts then you're going to continue to get push back.

 

It's insulting to others to ask them for proof of concepts and concrete examples of something then dismiss them with some new criteria.

 

Most of the things you do when you "discuss" things here are classical logical fallacies whether you realize it or not. It's frustrating to try and have a real interaction with someone who won't agree to basic definitions of words and basic expectations for what constitutes something of merit when sharing facts.

 

Facts: Most golfers have never taken a series of lessons focused on the core elements of the swing, accompanied by the requisite work outside of those lessons to ingrain those elements; as soon as it "feels weird", they're out. You can see the recent "are you a good student" related thread as to why many don't get much out of golf lessons. Most golfers have never had any kind of detailed swing analysis done, and many who do don't put what they're shown into practice. For various reasons many golfers, and many male golfers in particular, think we're capable of reasoning our own way to the perfect swing and believe we're getting to a better place despite our strength or athletic ability only being enough to overcome basic swing flaws on an inconsistent basis, and mostly only on the range with perfect conditions.

 

Most golfers, unlike those who play other sports, didn't start with sound, basic instruction as kids because people have tried to peddle wizardry and magic as the means to a good golf swing instead of simplifying things to core fundamentals as is done in other sports. Part of that also used to be the cost difficulties around even accessing the game, but at this point that's not nearly the blocker it once was.

 

You represent the wizardry sect in perpetuating and holding onto the idea that only Butch Harmon is qualified to instruct, while at the same time believing no one understands the fundamentals of how the swing works, which is some Schrodinger's Golf Swing type of mental gymnastics.

 

Do you understand how wild it is to think one man and the knowledge he's gained in his life outweighs all other avenues of learning and research into the game by all the other people who have studied it and still actively do so, some of those avenues incorporating data from thousands or tens of thousands of swings, on top of studying analysis from capture data that isn't unique to golf but spans the library of biomechanics? We're talking about writing off the insights of people who began with "How does the human body move and what are its limitations?", learned to apply that understanding across multiple sports fields, incorporated them for golf, in some cases even do detailed analysis of the physics of the forces involved, then have that analysis peer-reviewed before they share the findings. That's how we got to G.E.A.R.S., Kwon3D, and all the other 3D capture systems, as well as all of the quality force tracing systems dedicated to golf we now have available. 

 

Your opinion is to the point of saying "In all the world, only Doctor X is qualified to teach people about healthy diets, but that whole medical school thing and those silly biology and anatomy ideas it's based on are a bit suspect".

 

I think that's about all I have the energy for. If you want to keep viewing the world and golf as you do that's your choice, but the data is there if you want to look at it and learn to weigh its validity in a realistic, informed manner.

Thanks for your opinion 

Edited July 31 by airjammer
You/your

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Thanks for your opinion 

Airjammer, do you think Pedron knows you only read the first and last paragraphs....and kinda skimmed the middle?

[airjammer]

31 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Airjammer, do you think Pedron knows you only read the first and last paragraphs....and kinda skimmed the middle?

If he didn’t, he knows now😂

[sundaypins]

17 minutes ago, airjammer said:

If he didn’t, he knows now😂

  

Guilty here too.  

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Snarkesor said:

 

So AMG is not using Tyler's definition for it, they're using it as shorthand for what they demonstrated. No? When you wipe your behind, are you also using the term "wipe" to do just as he explains? I would say not, because he says it's getting your hands out in front of your body, but that's the wrong side of your body for that task!

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

You can share facts and data, you can share your opinion and even argue your opinion against other opinions; what you can't do is try to counter vetted data with your opinions and then expect anyone to take your arguments as valid.

 

But, but, but… 🤣

 

Again: people can have their own opinions. They don't get their own facts.

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

If you want to go full agnostic and say "no one knows anything but we might in the future" rather than engaging in discussion in good faith and meeting scrutinized facts with scrutinized facts then you're going to continue to get push back.

 

For someone who "doesn't know and never will" how the golf swing works, he has a lot of (unfounded) opinions on how the golf swing works.

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

It's insulting to others to ask them for proof of concepts and concrete examples of something then dismiss them with some new criteria.

 

Insulting and intellectually dishonest.

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

Most of the things you do when you "discuss" things here are classical logical fallacies whether you realize it or not. It's frustrating to try and have a real interaction with someone who won't agree to basic definitions of words and basic expectations for what constitutes something of merit when sharing facts.

 

Indeed. See my list earlier. 🙂 

 

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

You represent the wizardry sect in perpetuating and holding onto the idea that only Butch Harmon is qualified to instruct, while at the same time believing no one understands the fundamentals of how the swing works, which is some Schrodinger's Golf Swing type of mental gymnastics.

 

He may be better at that sport than golf.

 

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

Do you understand how wild it is to think one man and the knowledge he's gained in his life outweighs all other avenues of learning and research into the game by all the other people who have studied it and still actively do so, some of those avenues incorporating data from thousands or tens of thousands of swings, on top of studying analysis from capture data that isn't unique to golf but spans the library of biomechanics? We're talking about writing off the insights of people who began with "How does the human body move and what are its limitations?", learned to apply that understanding across multiple sports fields, incorporated them for golf, in some cases even do detailed analysis of the physics of the forces involved, then have that analysis peer-reviewed before they share the findings. That's how we got to G.E.A.R.S., Kwon3D, and all the other 3D capture systems, as well as all of the quality force tracing systems dedicated to golf we now have available.

 

One like wasn't enough, so you got a reply as well. Kudos, @PedronNiall. And thank you.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

Thanks for your opinion 

 

28 minutes ago, sundaypins said:

  

Guilty here too.  

[NosajNeelik]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

If he didn’t, he knows now😂

So he’s right then 

[NosajNeelik]

55 minutes ago, sundaypins said:

  

Guilty here too.  

Shocked!

[ThinkingPlus]

4 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

@Chunkitgood - what are your thoughts on this topic?  
 

 

Nooooooooo!

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

Nooooooooo!

Haha.

 

i want to see a debate between @Chunkitgood and @airjammer.  

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Haha.

 

i want to see a debate between @Chunkitgood and @airjammer.  

I expect them to violently agree.

[Valtiel]

15 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I expect them to violently agree.

And I mean.....we all know *why* that is 😅

[CPT_LHR_ATL]

This thread is what I come here for. It's just ...

 

[PedronNiall]

6 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Airjammer, do you think Pedron knows you only read the first and last paragraphs....and kinda skimmed the middle?

 

Response says he didn't even read that much, hah.

[Hilts1969]

14 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

 

This is what resonated to me as well. Disconnect, connect, disconnect. Keep the connection too long and it's not pretty.

 

My feeling on this is tricep away tricep reconnects to body and just continues in that direction. The arm has to fleetingly ride around with the pivot and once the pivot is out of your way the right arm comes off in line with the trail shoulder .

[Hilts1969]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You've almost made his point for him. These are the kinds of lengths people have to go to in order to try to salvage a shred of the point they try to make.

 

We're not talking about dogs playing golf (or how a dog sees things), when we say round it's to counter the argument that it's flat (and nobody says perfectly spherical), and "hot" is relative to general human existence, not to another sun or star somewhere else.

 

I do have a dog with EE problems with people's legs 

[TheDeanAbides]

14 hours ago, sundaypins said:

  

Guilty here too.  

Not just of that.

[RayPlan]

This video is bunk:

 

 

Average Joes just don't have the mobility of elite pro golfers! And besides, they're too stupid to understand such incredibly complex ideas as "lower your arms." Better to give them simple, concrete terms like "create space"

[Hilts1969]

7 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

This video is bunk:

 

 

Average Joes just don't have the mobility of elite pro golfers! And besides, they're too stupid to understand such incredibly complex ideas as "lower your arms." Better to give them simple, concrete terms like "create space"

 

I gave up when the numpty said elite athletic moves.

 

What like moving elbow away then back to side, yes only Rory and Tiger use deodorant.

 

As for extending your arm in front of you no Bueno we are office workers not circus acrobats. You know the reason Langer retired? He could no longer reach the door handle to get out the locker room. 

 

Bloody Hell Bernard just stand a bit closer you can't be expected to put your arm out at your age. 

 

Das wud be early extension Vadraig.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I gave up when the numpty said elite athletic moves.

 

What like moving elbow away then back to side, yes only Rory and Tiger use deodorant.

 

As for extending your arm in front of you no Bueno we are office workers not circus acrobats. You know the reason Langer retired? He could no longer reach the door handle to get out the locker room. 

 

Bloody Hell Bernard just stand a bit closer you can't be expected to put your arm out at your age. 

 

Das wud be early extension Vadraig.

 

 

don’t you know us mere mortals are incapable of lift and lowering the arms or addicting/abducting them.

 

we can’t rotate hips either. 
 

the elite moves thing kills me

[RayPlan]

8 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I gave up when the numpty said elite athletic moves.

 

What like moving elbow away then back to side, yes only Rory and Tiger use deodorant.

 

As for extending your arm in front of you no Bueno we are office workers not circus acrobats. You know the reason Langer retired? He could no longer reach the door handle to get out the locker room. 

 

Bloody Hell Bernard just stand a bit closer you can't be expected to put your arm out at your age. 

 

Das wud be early extension Vadraig.

 

 

The world needs a channel like "Average Motion Golf" where they compare golf movements to everyday actions that people do with thinking. 

 

"Elite" moves like reaching up and adjusting the rear view mirror in the car, looking over their shoulder to back up, or putting on a seatbelt. You could probably get most of the golf swing movements just from things people do every day in their car.

[TheDeanAbides]

47 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

This video is bunk:

 

 

Average Joes just don't have the mobility of elite pro golfers! And besides, they're too stupid to understand such incredibly complex ideas as "lower your arms." Better to give them simple, concrete terms like "create space"

Never have I been more tempted to create a YouTube account just to extensively call someone out. Must resist. 

[airjammer]

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Response says he didn't even read that much, hah.

Correct

 

[TheDeanAbides]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Correct

 

You've outed yourself. I sincerely hope that nobody responds to you again here. 

[airjammer]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You've outed yourself. I sincerely hope that nobody responds to you again here. 

I told people to DM if they wanted to further the conversation. 
 

What did you expect?

[iacas]

Someone should hop in quick and sell the golfers who like that dumb guy's video an "Elite Moves Training Series" for five easy payments of $79.99. I see the tag line now: "In this video series, you'll learn the elite moves that pro golfers make, with a workout specifically targeting each of them, including:

• lifting your arms up like you're putting on a polo or a t-shirt
• lowering your arm to your side like you're setting a coffee mug down on a table.
• pivoting like when you have to get something from the back seat of your car
• shifting pressure forward by flexing your knee a little bit, then extending it a little bit

These are workouts you can do in your daily lives, in as little as no extra time per day, since you already do these things all the time, and they're not that difficult at all. Forget grasping new concepts and immediately getting better at golf; that's not for you. You're not an elite Tour player, and the last time you set down a coffee mug you probably missed the table, so these videos are for YOU!"

 

[Golfbeat]

What did you guys do to my innocent thread!

 

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

[Golfbeat]

I understand that you don't need to create space for bringing the arms towards the belly button but we still need to keep sufficient space between the ball and the pelvis to avoid heel shots.