Ball Moving on the Green

[StudentGolfer4]

2 part question regarding an incident that occurred during a fourball (2 man better ball) event. Player A/B are on a team playing against C/D.
 

This all takes place on the green. It’s important to note the green has a pretty severe slope where the pin is. It’s not common but occasionally a ball will come to rest briefly and then roll a bit further. I’ve seen a putt or two miss high side and then take a revolution or two and fall back in the hole. (Terrible pin location but that’s not the point here.) 

Player A has an uphill putt for 3 from 7-8 feet. The ball goes past the hole about 6 inches, rolls back toward the hole an inch or two and then stops. As player A walks to the ball player C/D concede the putt. When player A sets his putter near/behind the ball to pick it up the ball starts moving again. The ball stopped short of the hole. A 4 was carded. 

 

The 4 didn’t matter. Player B and C both made 3, but it led to a discussion on the rules. 

Note, player A took a reasonable amount of time walking to pick up his ball. This isn’t a situation where he walked slowly or was standing there hoping it would move while counting 10 seconds or anything like that. 
 

1. To my understanding, when a putt is conceded that hole is over for the player. So if the putt was conceded (during a brief moment when the ball was at rest) and then it rolled into the cup Player A still would have had to take a 4. Correct? 
 

2. Let’s say the putt was not conceded and as Player A went to set a mark behind it the ball rolled into the hole. That would count as a 3, correct?

 

3. The other wrinkle to this discussion is when player A bent down to pick up the ball he set his putter maybe 4-5 inches behind the ball. That’s when the ball started moving again. Player D argued that the placement of the putter may have caused the movement. Player A disagreed, said he never addressed the golf ball and his putter was facing away from the hole. 

I've read over rules 9 and 13 but I’m not sure either really answered my questions. 

Edited July 29 by StudentGolfer4

[DJDJ]

better rules experts here than me, but in the case of a ball that is hanging over a lip or may roll back in, I doubt a competitor can "give you" the putt as a way to prevent you from giving it time to roll in.  My guess is if they conceded it, and then it fell in, it would have been a 3.

 

If he didn't address the ball, then the ball moving I don't think is because of him....also at that point it had been conceded so it doesn't matter if it moved.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Note, player A took a reasonable amount of time walking to pick up his ball. This isn’t a situation where he walked slowly or was standing there hoping it would move while counting 10 seconds or anything like that. 
 

 

I don't think there'd be a 10 second clock on something like this. The rule (13-3) is specifically worded around any part of the ball overhanging the lip of the hole. A ball 6" away is not, under any use of plain English, overhanging the hole. 

[Schulzmc]

The “wrinkle” here is the setting of the putter on the green. Unless it was witnessed it will be tough to decide if the action affected the ball and caused it to move.

 

But barring the person causing it to move, (if say a gust of wind had clearly caused the movement) the concession applies to the NEXT stroke. Since the ball had not been marked and replaced, and had that wind caused it to go in, the score would be 3 for the hole and the concession is irrelevant.

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

hat. 
 

1. To my understanding, when a putt is conceded that hole is over for the player. So if the putt was conceded (during a brief moment when the ball was at rest) and then it rolled into the cup Player A still would have had to take a 4. Correct? Concession part already answered.  
 

2. Let’s say the putt was not conceded and as Player A went to set a mark behind it the ball rolled into the hole. That would count as a 3, correct? Unclear what he did? If he caused it to move accidentally you put it back and no penalty. 9.4(b) Exception 3, and it's a 4.  If you mean he was in the process of putting a mark down but never put it down nor caused the ball to move in some fashion and natural forces caused the ball to move then 9.3 is pretty clear as well. 

 

3. The other wrinkle to this discussion is when player A bent down to pick up the ball he set his putter maybe 4-5 inches behind the ball. That’s when the ball started moving again. Player D argued that the placement of the putter may have caused the movement. Player A disagreed, said he never addressed the golf ball and his putter was facing away from the hole. I don't see the argument since it was accidental.

I've read over rules 9 and 13 but I’m not sure either really answered my questions. 

 

I think the answers may be pretty direct.  See above for suggestions.

Edited July 29 by Hawkeye77

[Colin L]

This is a very simple situation.  A putted  (his third stroke); his ball came to rest;  his next stroke was conceded; and so he had completed the hole in 4.  What happens to his ball after the concession is irrelevant.

[Augster]

If the ball comes to rest, the opponents can conceded it. Period. Once the next stroke is conceded, the hole is over for that player.

Player A scores a 4. 
 

A ball at rest has infinity to fall into the hole as long as it isn’t overhanging the hole. Up to delay of play penalties. Once the ball is overhanging, and the player has taken a reasonable amount of time to arrive, then the 10 seconds starts. 
 

On windy days and fast greens, I’ll just leave my ball on the green while others play as long as they don’t need me to mark. I might get lucky. 

[StudentGolfer4]

@Hawkeye77 can you elaborate on what you are referring to when you say “concession part already answered?” 
 

Are you agreeing with Schulzmc that if the ball rolled in the cup after the concession, but due to natural forces, it would have been a 3? Or are you 
 

@Augster that’s interesting that the rule differs if the ball is overhanging the hole or not. Not sure I’ve ever really thought much about it before this. 

Edited July 29 by StudentGolfer4

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

@Hawkeye77 can you elaborate on what you are referring to when you say “concession part already answered?” 
 

 

I read your question as pretty much answering it, sorry for the confusion on that. It can even be conceded while moving, but once it comes to rest that's it. 

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I read your question as pretty much answering it, sorry for the confusion on that. It can even be conceded while moving, but once it comes to rest that's it. 

An opponent can concede the NEXT stroke while a ball is in motion, they can’t concede the stroke of the ball in motion. 
 

“A concession made while the opponent’s ball is still in motion after the previous stroke applies to the opponent’s next stroke, unless the ball is holed (in which case the concession does not matter).”

[Hawkeye77]

21 minutes ago, Augster said:

An opponent can concede the NEXT stroke while a ball is in motion, they can’t concede the stroke of the ball in motion. 
 

“A concession made while the opponent’s ball is still in motion after the previous stroke applies to the opponent’s next stroke, unless the ball is holed (in which case the concession does not matter).”

Yes, we’re talking about the next stroke. 

[StudentGolfer4]

Follow up question then. 
 

Let’s say my opponent is putting for 3. He misses and his ball is overhanging the cup but at rest. I quickly give a concession and then it falls in the cup? 
 

He cards a 4 because he misses his 3rd and I conceded the next? Or it’s a different ruling because it was overhanging the hole?

Edited July 30 by StudentGolfer4

[nsxguy]

31 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Follow up question then. 
 

Let’s say my opponent is putting for 3. He misses and his ball is overhanging the cup but at rest. I quickly give a concession and then it falls in the cup? 
 

He cards a 4 because he misses his 3rd and I conceded the next? Or it’s a different ruling because it was overhanging the hole?

 

No, in this case the ball would be considered holed with that player's previous stroke as you did not allow him the 10 seconds to see if it would fall in.

 

Reference Nelly Korda in the Solheim(?) Cup a few years ago.

Edited July 30 by nsxguy

[StudentGolfer4]

52 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

No, in this case the ball would be considered holed with that player's previous stroke as you did not allow him the 10 seconds to see if it would fall in.

 

Reference Nelly Korda in the Solheim(?) Cup a few years ago.

And that 10 seconds is required only because it is overhanging the hole, correct? 
 

If it was an inch away, quickly conceded, and then falls in its not considered holed? 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

And that 10 seconds is required only because it is overhanging the hole, correct? 
 

If it was an inch away, quickly conceded, and then falls in its not considered holed? 

Provided the ball was at rest when the concession was made, that's correct.

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

And that 10 seconds is required only because it is overhanging the hole, correct? 
 

If it was an inch away, quickly conceded, and then falls in its not considered holed? 

You're right.  13.3b says that, in match play, if your Opponent lifts or moves your ball overhanging the hole before the "waiting time" is over, the stroke is treated as holed with the previous stroke.  A concession is essentially doing the same thing, so a concession cannot eliminate the opportunity for an overhanging ball to drop in that limited time frame.  But that waiting time ONLY applies to a ball overhanging the hole.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

And that 10 seconds is required only because it is overhanging the hole, correct? 
 

If it was an inch away, quickly conceded, and then falls in its not considered holed? 

 

Not sure exactly what you mean.

 

Overhanging the hole - 10 seconds.

 

And "inch away", to ME, says the ball is not overhanging the hole, and we're right back to your OP. 

[antip]

This is an excellent discussion topic that highlights a tricky issue not always well understood.

The original question gets at the issue does a concession change the status of the ball. And the answer is no, demonstrated in the definition of "In Play", which confirms a ball remains in play until holed except it is no longer in play if lifted, lost or subbed by another ball. A concession, of itself, does not alter that status of in play.
Consequently, if natural forces move that ball at rest after a concession is given but before the ball is lifted, that ball is "live" and the concession only has relevance to the player's next stroke, not the prior stroke. As the ball rolled into the hole, this player's 3rd stroke was holed. 
This answer only changes if the movement of the ball was caused by the player in the process of lifting the ball - and only then if there is KVC (95 per cent certainty) that the player caused the ball to move.

 

Ball overhanging the hole is an entirely different issue, covered fully in Rule 13.3.

[StudentGolfer4]

1 hour ago, antip said:

This is an excellent discussion topic that highlights a tricky issue not always well understood.

The original question gets at the issue does a concession change the status of the ball. And the answer is no, demonstrated in the definition of "In Play", which confirms a ball remains in play until holed except it is no longer in play if lifted, lost or subbed by another ball. A concession, of itself, does not alter that status of in play.
Consequently, if natural forces move that ball at rest after a concession is given but before the ball is lifted, that ball is "live" and the concession only has relevance to the player's next stroke, not the prior stroke. As the ball rolled into the hole, this player's 3rd stroke was holed. 

Alright everyone. Is the second part of this correct? It seems to go against what was said earlier by a couple of people. I thought I understood it all but this seems to be different than what was previously said. 
 

A player is hitting his 3rd shot. The ball comes to rest not overhanging the hole, and is conceded. A gust of wind blows it into the hole before the player is able to pick up the ball. Is it a 3 or 4? 
 

I’m now clear on 13.3 and a ball over hanging the hole. Thanks 

[antip]

26 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Alright everyone. Is the second part of this correct? It seems to go against what was said earlier by a couple of people. I thought I understood it all but this seems to be different than what was previously said. 
 

A player is hitting his 3rd shot. The ball comes to rest not overhanging the hole, and is conceded. A gust of wind blows it into the hole before the player is able to pick up the ball. Is it a 3 or 4? 
 

I’m now clear on 13.3 and a ball over hanging the hole. Thanks 

Yes, it is different from what some said. It is also correct and is Ruling Body affirmed in case anyone has any doubt.

 

I also point out there are other scenarios on course where the "In Play" definition has meaningful impacts. When a ball is left on the course during a suspension, that ball also remains in play until one of the defined conditions that take a ball out of play have been met.

[Augster]

3 hours ago, antip said:

This is an excellent discussion topic that highlights a tricky issue not always well understood.

The original question gets at the issue does a concession change the status of the ball. And the answer is no, demonstrated in the definition of "In Play", which confirms a ball remains in play until holed except it is no longer in play if lifted, lost or subbed by another ball. A concession, of itself, does not alter that status of in play.
Consequently, if natural forces move that ball at rest after a concession is given but before the ball is lifted, that ball is "live" and the concession only has relevance to the player's next stroke, not the prior stroke. As the ball rolled into the hole, this player's 3rd stroke was holed. 
This answer only changes if the movement of the ball was caused by the player in the process of lifting the ball - and only then if there is KVC (95 per cent certainty) that the player caused the ball to move.

 

Ball overhanging the hole is an entirely different issue, covered fully in Rule 13.3.

This is completely preposterous and goes against everything written in Rule 3.2. 
 

If this were true, after a concession, I should NEVER lift my ball if there is even the slightest chance natural forces may eventually move it into the hole. Following that, 3.2 says a conceded stroke may be removed by anyone. 
 

So if what you say is correct, when I concede the next shot, I should hustle over there and pick it up and hand it to my opponent if it looks like he is going to leave it on the green. 
 

I’m not buying it. If the ball is clearly at rest, not overhanging, and I concede the next putt, that’s it. The hole is over for my opponent. This “second chance to win”, of leaving the ball on the green, is a bridge too far. It’s simply not in the Rules. 
 

My opponent has a 50-foot downhill putt. I have a 40-foot uphill putt. Both for birdie. He leaves his 50-foot putt 6-inches short. It comes to rest. I say, “That’s good”. He makes a 4. While I’m lining up my 40-footer, and he’s casually walking to his ball, like 10 seconds after I conceded it, a gust of wind blows his ball into the hole. Now I have to make my 40-footer to tie?

 

My only other option is to say “that’s good”, then SPRINT to the hole and pick up his ball?

 

These are scenarios I’ve never, ever heard of. Ever. I’m not buying it. I’ll have to see something from the Ruling bodies.

 

If this is truly the way they want match play to run, they’ll have to add a clarification. Because if this is truly what they intend, it’s just not clear in the ROG. 

[antip]

Just now, Augster said:

This is completely preposterous and goes against everything written in Rule 3.2. 
 

If this were true, after a concession, I should NEVER lift my ball if there is even the slightest chance natural forces may eventually move it into the hole. Following that, 3.2 says a conceded stroke may be removed by anyone. 
 

So if what you say is correct, when I concede the next shot, I should hustle over there and pick it up and hand it to my opponent if it looks like he is going to leave it on the green. 
 

I’m not buying it. If the ball is clearly at rest, not overhanging, and I concede the next putt, that’s it. The hole is over for my opponent. This “second chance to win”, of leaving the ball on the green, is a bridge too far. It’s simply not in the Rules. 
 

My opponent has a 50-foot downhill putt. I have a 40-foot uphill putt. Both for birdie. He leaves his 50-foot putt 6-inches short. It comes to rest. I say, “That’s good”. He makes a 4. While I’m lining up my 40-footer, and he’s casually walking to his ball, like 10 seconds after I conceded it, a gust of wind blows his ball into the hole. Now I have to make my 40-footer to tie?

 

My only other option is to say “that’s good”, then SPRINT to the hole and pick up his ball?

 

These are scenarios I’ve never, ever heard of. Ever. I’m not buying it. I’ll have to see something from the Ruling bodies.

 

If this is truly the way they want match play to run, they’ll have to add a clarification. Because if this is truly what they intend, it’s just not clear in the ROG. 

It's a USGA ruling. But it also logical as well as being correct. Your ball is always subject to the vagaries of nature while it is in play, unless the special exceptions in 9.3 apply.

Yes, anyone can lift that ball at rest after a concession, that is not at issue, but the ball is in play until it is lifted.
In the OP, the really weird quirk is the ball was moved into the hole by natural forces. I've seen that once in 60 years on golf courses. More commonly, it is just moving the ball to a different postion.

[Colin L]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

It's a USGA ruling. But it also logical as well as being correct. Your ball is always subject to the vagaries of nature while it is in play, unless the special exceptions in 9.3 apply.

Yes, anyone can lift that ball at rest after a concession, that is not at issue, but the ball is in play until it is lifted.
In the OP, the really weird quirk is the ball was moved into the hole by natural forces. I've seen that once in 60 years on golf courses. More commonly, it is just moving the ball to a different postion.

That's ugely at odds with 6.5 which states that that as soon ask the concession is made, the hole is completed for that player.  It is difficult to accept the "logic' that after you have completed a hole your ball can still in play.

[antip]

35 minutes ago, Colin L said:

That's ugely at odds with 6.5 which states that that as soon ask the concession is made, the hole is completed for that player.  It is difficult to accept the "logic' that after you have completed a hole your ball can still in play.

Not at odds at all. There is no "as soon as .." language.

 

6.5 states the hole is completed when the player holes out or the player's next stroke is conceded. In this case, the next stroke was conceded, but the next stroke was never needed. 

[Colin L]

Does  when  the concession is made not mean the moment at which it is made?

 

 

 

[limegreengent]

8 hours ago, antip said:

And the answer is no, demonstrated in the definition of "In Play", which confirms a ball remains in play until holed except it is no longer in play if lifted, lost or subbed by another ball. A concession, of itself, does not alter that status of in play.

Sorry Antip - cannot agree .🙁

 

The above text regarding status of ball in play is preceded by 

“when the ball lies on the course and is being used in the PLAY OF THE HOLE.”

 

The player has completed a hole in match play when he holes out 

        Or 

the player’s next stroke is conceded.

 

Consequently  the fact that it has not been lifted has no relevance in match play because it is no longer being used in the play of the hole.

 

Of course - my reply is subject to the ball being “ at rest “ when the concession is made.

 

To rule otherwise would be inappropriate as the opponent would not be in a position to know whether he had one putt or multiple putts to win the hole.

 

it would of course be interesting to know the exact question that was posed to the Usga for a ruling . I suspect that the conceded ball may have been overhanging the hole which would of course be relevant.

 

Edited July 31 by limegreengent

[Hawkeye77]

@antip

 

I hear what you are saying, essentially the ball is still in play and the player should not be deprived of the result of natural forces which would allow the ball holed by the wind, so to speak, to stand as completing the hole in three strokes.

 

But the Rules of match play override that:

 

 

"Conceding Next Stroke. This is allowed any time before the opponent’s next stroke is made.

• The opponent has then completed the hole with a score that includes that conceded stroke, and the ball may be removed by anyone."

 

Removal of the ball is not the act that "ends" the previous stroke, i.e. absent the ball hanging over the hole, which the rules provide for, you can neither wait to see whether the wind will blow your ball in, or benefit if it just so happens to do so in this situation - once the concession is made the hole is deemed completed (the exception for ball in motion does not apply here).  It's over, and that is why the additional language about the ball being removed by anyone follows - so there aren't issues related to that.  If it's not removed whether it sits there until the greenskeeper finds it or blows in the hole or blows off the green is irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

[antip]

1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

Sorry Antip - cannot agree .🙁

 

The above text regarding status of ball in play is preceded by 

“when the ball lies on the course and is being used in the PLAY OF THE HOLE.”

 

The player has completed a hole in match play when he holes out 

        Or 

the player’s next stroke is conceded.

 

Consequently  the fact that it has not been lifted has no relevance in match play because it is no longer being used in the play of the hole.

 

Of course - my reply is subject to the ball being “ at rest “ when the concession is made.

 

To rule otherwise would be inappropriate as the opponent would not be in a position to know whether he had one putt or multiple putts to win the hole.

 

it would of course be interesting to know the exact question that was posed to the Usga for a ruling . I suspect that the conceded ball may have been overhanging the hole which would of course be relevant.

 

Your suspicion is not the case. There is no mention of overhanging, the explicit language was ball was at rest a foot above the hole and after the concession and before the player could act on the concession, the ball was blown into the hole.

[Hawkeye77]

The Rules provided immediately before 2019:

 

"A player may concede his opponent’s next stroke at any time provided the opponent's ball is at rest. The opponent is considered to have holed out with his next stroke and the ball may be removed by either side."

 

The current rule isn't any different in terms of the outcome if the ball wasn't in motion. "The opponent is considered to have holed out with his next stroke . . . "  That takes effect at the moment of the concession if the ball is at rest.

[iacas]

Suppose that a player hits a shot from 100 yards away. It spins back and appears to come to rest three inches short of the hole. The opponent concedes the 3" putt when it appears to come to rest and then one second later the ball falls into the hole. Did the player hole the 100-yard shot or the one after it? What if the time delay is two seconds? Three? Four? Five? Twenty (they have to walk 100 yards to get up there, after all)?