Help! I'm Shut at the Top

[Putt4doh]

UGH!

I've been struggling with a pull-pull hook for while now. When I'm on the range, I can control it with a manipulated downswing, but on the course it's unplayable. Well, I broke down and took some video. Of course, I was appalled at how bad my swing looked. But one thing I can tell for sure is that I'm shut at the top (club face pointing towards the sky). So my question is simple...

What are some of the common causes of a shut club face?

I'm desperate so any causes and fixes are well received!

[Zach Heusser]

Has your grip become strong? Are you bowing your left wrist at the top?

[Dbogey]

I struggle with a touch of a closed face at the top. The thing that helps me get it square is left fore arm rotation on the back swing.

[magnum184]

Its either your grip or your wrist set. No.........let me rephrase that.

 

Its your particular grip to way you are now particulary setting your wrists. Understand that? Forearm rotation alone won't help you. Rotation is a necessity, but it doesn't help your face alone. Pay attention to what your wrists are doing.

[Putt4doh]

Has your grip become strong? Are you bowing your left wrist at the top?

 

Thanks for the reply...

 

Well, I'm not sure. I aim for a flat wrist at the top....is that bowing or cupping? I get confused on some of this stuff. In a mirror at home, if I cup my wrist (create an angle between the back of my hand and forearm), the clubface gets closer to plane but still not quite there....

 

Both V's in my grip are inside my right shoulder. Is that considered strong?

[Putt4doh]

Its either your grip or your wrist set. No.........let me rephrase that.

 

Its your particular grip to way you are now particulary setting your wrists. Understand that? Forearm rotation alone won't help you. Rotation is a necessity, but it doesn't help your face alone. Pay attention to what your wrists are doing.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean....

 

If I flatten my wrist at the top it gets more shut. Is that too much wrist or not enough?

[aviator]

Has your grip become strong? Are you bowing your left wrist at the top?

 

Thanks for the reply...

 

Well, I'm not sure. I aim for a flat wrist at the top....is that bowing or cupping? I get confused on some of this stuff. In a mirror at home, if I cup my wrist (create an angle between the back of my hand and forearm), the clubface gets closer to plane but still not quite there....

 

Both V's in my grip are inside my right shoulder. Is that considered strong?

Vs should point somewhere between right ear and shoulder. Also, the left forearm does need to rotate some on the backswing. Many times the pull/pull hook comes from beginning the downswing with the hands/arms instead of from the ground up. Unfortunately I've learned that firsthand from experience.

[magnum184]

Its either your grip or your wrist set. No.........let me rephrase that.

 

Its your particular grip to way you are now particulary setting your wrists. Understand that? Forearm rotation alone won't help you. Rotation is a necessity, but it doesn't help your face alone. Pay attention to what your wrists are doing.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean....

 

If I flatten my wrist at the top it gets more shut. Is that too much wrist or not enough?

 

No, I think you are getting it.

 

With a strong grip, one in which you see three or more knuckles, you will need a decent cup up top to be square. Having a flat left wrist with a strong grip will always have club too shut. Even with a 2 1/2 knuckle grip, their should be a slight cup. It doesn't appear like that from behind, but its their if its square. It still looks pretty darn square though. And a 1 1/2 to 2 knuckle grip will be pretty flat.

 

That's why I said a particular grip needs a particular wrist set at the top. ;)

[Putt4doh]

Its either your grip or your wrist set. No.........let me rephrase that.

 

Its your particular grip to way you are now particulary setting your wrists. Understand that? Forearm rotation alone won't help you. Rotation is a necessity, but it doesn't help your face alone. Pay attention to what your wrists are doing.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean....

 

If I flatten my wrist at the top it gets more shut. Is that too much wrist or not enough?

 

No, I think you are getting it.

 

With a strong grip, one in which you see three or more knuckles, you will need a decent cup up top to be square. Having a flat left wrist with a strong grip will always have club too shut. Even with a 2 1/2 knuckle grip, their should be a slight cup. It doesn't appear like that from behind, but its their if its square. It still looks pretty darn square though. And a 1 1/2 to 2 knuckle grip will be pretty flat.

 

That's why I said a particular grip needs a particular wrist set at the top. ;)

 

 

Now I got it. Thanks much. Hopefully, I can work on this a touch tomorrow...this d@mn pull/pull hooks give me nightmares.

[12 piece bucket]

Its either your grip or your wrist set. No.........let me rephrase that.

 

Its your particular grip to way you are now particulary setting your wrists. Understand that? Forearm rotation alone won't help you. Rotation is a necessity, but it doesn't help your face alone. Pay attention to what your wrists are doing.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean....

 

If I flatten my wrist at the top it gets more shut. Is that too much wrist or not enough?

 

No, I think you are getting it.

 

With a strong grip, one in which you see three or more knuckles, you will need a decent cup up top to be square. Having a flat left wrist with a strong grip will always have club too shut. Even with a 2 1/2 knuckle grip, their should be a slight cup. It doesn't appear like that from behind, but its their if its square. It still looks pretty darn square though. And a 1 1/2 to 2 knuckle grip will be pretty flat.

 

That's why I said a particular grip needs a particular wrist set at the top. ;)

 

 

Now I got it. Thanks much. Hopefully, I can work on this a touch tomorrow...this d@mn pull/pull hooks give me nightmares.

 

 

 

Don't get terribly freaked about being shut . . . unless it's freaky shut . . . what you need to do is learn to LEAN THE SHAFT. If you are shut at the top the face is going to come off the plane FAST if you have any rotation of your hands counter clockwise. So what you need to feel assuming your grip is strong is a "karate chop" feeling deep through the ball. NO ROLLING OF THE FOREARMS. Let your pivot square the face. If you are shut at the top you need to lean the shaft because this gets the face OPEN. Make sure you are going forward and unwinding too. Any hanging back will cause the face to shut fast too.

 

There are some great ball strikers who were "shutty" Trevino, Boo, Duval to name a few. Don't automatically assume you need to change your grip. You may just need to change your concepts and your delivery. Most shut faced cats hit the ball hard for the most part. No backin' off because if the pivot stalls or the don't get the pivot speed and shaft lean right . .. . ball go left.

[The Boom Bapp]

Do you have a video of your swing?

 

How strong is your grip?

 

Is your grip Neutral, Strong Neutral, Strong, or overly strong?

 

Try using a book to practice coming into a square back of hand/ club face position.

 

Tiger uncoils from the same position which is why you do not see his hands drop up or down, he goes back on plane and unwinds on the same angle.

 

Look at Tiger here at the top of his coil:

 

 

 

Best of Luck.

[Putt4doh]

Do you have a video of your swing?

 

How strong is your grip?

 

Is your grip Neutral, Strong Neutral, Strong, or overly strong?

 

Try using a book to practice coming into a square back of hand/ club face position.

 

Look at Tiger here at the top of his coil:

 

 

Tiger's full swing in slow-motion.

 

Best of Luck.

 

 

Thanks! This looks like great help. But the link doesn't work. Can you repost it?

[The Boom Bapp]

Do you have a video of your swing?

 

How strong is your grip?

 

Is your grip Neutral, Strong Neutral, Strong, or overly strong?

 

Try using a book to practice coming into a square back of hand/ club face position.

 

Look at Tiger here at the top of his coil:

 

 

Tiger's Full Swing in Slo-Motion

 

Best of Luck.

 

 

Thanks! This looks like great help. But the link doesn't work. Can you repost it?

 

 

Done.

 

Tiger's Full Swing in Slo-Motion

 

 

Best of Luck

[utopiapga]

Bottom line is you can play all day long with a closed club face. Alot of the great players all play with a slightly shut clubface. You would rather have a slightly shut clubface than an open clubface.

 

With that being said if your grip is still neutral.........not strong or weak.........then the one thing you need to do in order to keep the club head square at impact and not to come over the top and pull hook it is to make sure you have a very active lower body.

 

What I mean by this is that you need to be able to clear your hips almost open them up to the left at impact if you have a shut clubface. I have played for years this way and where my swing struggles is when I try to take something off a shot and my upper body gets way ahead of my lower body causing me to pull the ball off line.

 

So do not worry so much about a closed clubface worry more about clearing the lower body and make sure you are not getting the upper body ahead of the swing and pulling across your body which will entall a PULL hook. If you have a good swing with a slightly shut clubface all you will do is hit a baby draw all day long which is what alot of us strive for.

 

Hope this helps, I have been away from this forum for a while but I am tryin to get back into the game.

 

Good luck...........

[Putt4doh]

Bottom line is you can play all day long with a closed club face. Alot of the great players all play with a slightly shut clubface. You would rather have a slightly shut clubface than an open clubface.

 

With that being said if your grip is still neutral.........not strong or weak.........then the one thing you need to do in order to keep the club head square at impact and not to come over the top and pull hook it is to make sure you have a very active lower body.

 

What I mean by this is that you need to be able to clear your hips almost open them up to the left at impact if you have a shut clubface. I have played for years this way and where my swing struggles is when I try to take something off a shot and my upper body gets way ahead of my lower body causing me to pull the ball off line.

 

So do not worry so much about a closed clubface worry more about clearing the lower body and make sure you are not getting the upper body ahead of the swing and pulling across your body which will entall a PULL hook. If you have a good swing with a slightly shut clubface all you will do is hit a baby draw all day long which is what alot of us strive for.

 

Hope this helps, I have been away from this forum for a while but I am tryin to get back into the game.

 

Good luck...........

 

 

Most helpful!

 

You've got to know your stuff b/c I've got a nearly overactive lower body! LOL. It's not uncommon for my hips to outrace my arms/hands well past the ball at impact. If I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying this is necessary in order to hit online?

 

I did some work at the range last night and found that I was taking the club way too far to the inside AND bowing my left wrist slightly. With a lot of work to keep the club in front of me and my wrist from breaking down, I think I'm back on the right track.

[frozen_rope]

Shut at address

 

I've been struggling with a pull-pull hook for while now. When I'm on the range, I can control it with a manipulated downswing, but on the course it's unplayable. Well, I broke down and took some video. Of course, I was appalled at how bad my swing looked. But one thing I can tell for sure is that I'm shut at the top (club face pointing towards the sky). So my question is simple...

 

What are some of the common causes of a shut club face?

 

I'm desperate so any causes and fixes are well received!

[DLiver]

As a reformed shut-face player, let me tell you that it is not a great way to play the game. Sure there have been some great players who dealt with it, but I guarantee you that there are TONS of players who couldn't play with this flaw. To play with a shut face, you need to make a compensation somewhere else in your swing, and when you have to make compensations, you rely on timing to pull it off. This leads to inconsistency and tragedy under pressure. You will also play in constant fear of hitting off the planet left. This is what Duval is doing now. He'll play several great holes in a row, then hit it waaaaay left. He is now a shut-face player who has lost the feel for his compendation.

 

As others have eloquently stated, you will need to use your lower body to square the face. The good way to do this is to rotate hard. The bad way to do this is to slide. Most people do a little of both.

 

The other problem with playing shut is that it limits the kinds of shots you can hit. Mostly, you're hitting low bullets.

 

Once I was able to get the face square at the top, I started hitting it much better--more consistently on the sweet spot and noticeably longer. It was a very hard thing to fix, but it was worth the effort. What help me was to focus on the right hand rather than the left (I'm a righty). Instead of trying to keep more cup in my left wrist, I tried to make my right wrist flatter at the top. I could feel a flat right wrist more easily than I could feel a cupped left wrist, and I was able to make steady progress from there.

[Dariusz J.]

Don't get terribly freaked about being shut . . . unless it's freaky shut . . . what you need to do is learn to LEAN THE SHAFT. If you are shut at the top the face is going to come off the plane FAST if you have any rotation of your hands counter clockwise. So what you need to feel assuming your grip is strong is a "karate chop" feeling deep through the ball. NO ROLLING OF THE FOREARMS. Let your pivot square the face. If you are shut at the top you need to lean the shaft because this gets the face OPEN. Make sure you are going forward and unwinding too. Any hanging back will cause the face to shut fast too.

 

There are some great ball strikers who were "shutty" Trevino, Boo, Duval to name a few. Don't automatically assume you need to change your grip. You may just need to change your concepts and your delivery. Most shut faced cats hit the ball hard for the most part. No backin' off because if the pivot stalls or the don't get the pivot speed and shaft lean right . .. . ball go left.

 

Good post, Bucket !

 

Cheers

[Putt4doh]

As a reformed shut-face player, let me tell you that it is not a great way to play the game. Sure there have been some great players who dealt with it, but I guarantee you that there are TONS of players who couldn't play with this flaw. To play with a shut face, you need to make a compensation somewhere else in your swing, and when you have to make compensations, you rely on timing to pull it off. This leads to inconsistency and tragedy under pressure. You will also play in constant fear of hitting off the planet left. This is what Duval is doing now. He'll play several great holes in a row, then hit it waaaaay left. He is now a shut-face player who has lost the feel for his compendation.

 

 

You nailed it!

 

At the range, I had no problems making the compensation needed to hit it online. But when I got under the slightest amount of pressure (1st tee, narrow FW, pressed, etc), it got ugly real fast. It's bad enough that I'm willing to make some serious changes in the hopes of hitting it more consistently.

[utopiapga]

As a reformed shut-face player, let me tell you that it is not a great way to play the game. Sure there have been some great players who dealt with it, but I guarantee you that there are TONS of players who couldn't play with this flaw. To play with a shut face, you need to make a compensation somewhere else in your swing, and when you have to make compensations, you rely on timing to pull it off. This leads to inconsistency and tragedy under pressure. You will also play in constant fear of hitting off the planet left. This is what Duval is doing now. He'll play several great holes in a row, then hit it waaaaay left. He is now a shut-face player who has lost the feel for his compendation.

 

As others have eloquently stated, you will need to use your lower body to square the face. The good way to do this is to rotate hard. The bad way to do this is to slide. Most people do a little of both.

 

The other problem with playing shut is that it limits the kinds of shots you can hit. Mostly, you're hitting low bullets.

 

Once I was able to get the face square at the top, I started hitting it much better--more consistently on the sweet spot and noticeably longer. It was a very hard thing to fix, but it was worth the effort. What help me was to focus on the right hand rather than the left (I'm a righty). Instead of trying to keep more cup in my left wrist, I tried to make my right wrist flatter at the top. I could feel a flat right wrist more easily than I could feel a cupped left wrist, and I was able to make steady progress from there.

 

Well I agree to a certain point, look at Stewert Cink, Camillo, J.B Holmes, and of course it was good enough for Zach Johnson to win the MASTERS just to name a few.

[utopiapga]

Shut at address

 

I've been struggling with a pull-pull hook for while now. When I'm on the range, I can control it with a manipulated downswing, but on the course it's unplayable. Well, I broke down and took some video. Of course, I was appalled at how bad my swing looked. But one thing I can tell for sure is that I'm shut at the top (club face pointing towards the sky). So my question is simple...

 

What are some of the common causes of a shut club face?

 

I'm desperate so any causes and fixes are well received!

 

 

Is that your answer to everyones problems? Every post I have seen from you says the same thing...........alighnment? Without seeing anyones set-up or swing you cannot assume that and we all know what happens when you assume............

[happyroman]

I have been fighting a hook due to an overly strong grip (for me) for quite a while. I have always used the method of gripping the club as described in Hogan's 5 Lessons, using the crook of the index finger and pad of the thumb, primarily. This is also explained quite well in Jimmy Ballard's, How to Perfect Your Golf Swing. Gripping the club in this manner, you can have a solid hold on the club without using the last three fingers. However, this method of connecting my left hand to the club seems to encourage a closed club face when my hands are in a neutral to slightly strong position.

 

As an added note, I have pretty small hands (mens medium cadet glove).

 

The other day, I experimented with an alternate method of connecting my hand to the club, as described in Swing Like a Pro. The club is in the same position in the hand, with respect to the index finger and heel pad of the thumb, but more emphasis is placed on gripping the club with the last three fingers of the left hand. This allows me to keep the grip in the fingers without resulting in letting my grip creep into an overly strong position.

 

I was prompted to try this after hearing an interview with a short game guru who recommended this grip for improved wedge play. He was saying that most people tend to grip the club too tightly with the pincher fingers (thumb and index finger), resulting in less feel. He pointed out that a completely different set of forearm muscles control the pincher fingers than the last three fingers, allowing greater feel. Whatever the reason, I went an entire practice session with out a hook that was due to my grip. I hooked only one shot, but it was due to overswinging and coming through too quick with the right hand, not due to my grip. Hope this helps.

 

PS I really don't pay too much attention to my wrist position at the top, especially after reading Bobby Clampet's Impact Zone. He points out that Tiger won the Masters by 12 strokes with a cupped wrist at the top, than after a swing change, has continued to win with a flat wrist at the top. He says it is more a matter of style, and not a critical swing dynamic, such as being on plane and having a forward shaft lean at impact, etc.

[Putt4doh]

I have been fighting a hook due to an overly strong grip (for me) for quite a while. I have always used the method of gripping the club as described in Hogan's 5 Lessons, using the crook of the index finger and pad of the thumb, primarily. This is also explained quite well in Jimmy Ballard's, How to Perfect Your Golf Swing. Gripping the club in this manner, you can have a solid hold on the club without using the last three fingers. However, this method of connecting my left hand to the club seems to encourage a closed club face when my hands are in a neutral to slightly strong position.

 

The other day, I experimented with an alternate method of connecting my hand to the club, as described in Swing Like a Pro. The club is in the same position in the hand, with respect to the index finger and heel pad of the thumb, but more emphasis is placed on gripping the club with the last three fingers of the left hand. This allows me to keep the grip in the fingers without resulting in letting my grip creep into an overly strong position.

 

I was prompted to try this after hearing an interview with a short game guru who recommended this grip for improved wedge play. He was saying that most people tend to grip the club too tightly with the pincher fingers (thumb and index finger), resulting in less feel. He pointed out that a completely different set of forearm muscles control the pincher fingers than the last three fingers, allowing greater feel. Whatever the reason, I went an entire practice session with out a hook that was due to my grip. I hooked only one shot, but it was due to overswinging and coming through too quick with the right hand, not due to my grip. Hope this helps.

 

PS I really don't pay too much attention to my wrist position at the top, especially after reading Bobby Clampet's Impact Zone. He points out that Tiger won the Masters by 12 strokes with a cupped wrist at the top, than after a swing change, has continued to win with a flat wrist at the top. He says it is more a matter of style, and not a critical swing dynamic, such as being on plane and having a forward shaft lean at impact, etc.

 

 

Interesting info. I've always followed Hogan's method of attaching the left hand to the club. But I found I have a tendency to get a bit strong. I'm not sure if this is a function of the method or the size of my hand/grip. If I roll my left hand to the left, my wrist stays flat but the club is much more in the palm than the fingers. It almost seems like I trade one set of problems for another with any changes...

[frozen_rope]

I wrote that his face was shut at address. This is true of about 95% of the people playing golf.

 

 

 

Shut at address

 

I've been struggling with a pull-pull hook for while now. When I'm on the range, I can control it with a manipulated downswing, but on the course it's unplayable. Well, I broke down and took some video. Of course, I was appalled at how bad my swing looked. But one thing I can tell for sure is that I'm shut at the top (club face pointing towards the sky). So my question is simple...

 

What are some of the common causes of a shut club face?

 

I'm desperate so any causes and fixes are well received!

 

 

Is that your answer to everyones problems? Every post I have seen from you says the same thing...........alighnment? Without seeing anyones set-up or swing you cannot assume that and we all know what happens when you assume............