Tiger might be in trouble

[Tigersworld]

I haven't seen the swings that you are talking about...but I have seen the photos in the AT+T thread with his Driver. Based on them it has never looked better to me and I think he's on exactly the right track.

 

There is bound to be swings he makes in this period where he lacks the extension in the spine due to him 'clearly' working on maintaining the flex in his left knee longer. I wouldn't presume that he is working on deliberately taking out the extension in his spine. It is a part of the process that he learn to extend his spine without help from the left leg driving upwards.

 

The ideal release is one in which the pelvis thrusts forward and the left leg straightens underneath it as a balance/counter balance factor not a driving force. To my mind he is going down that path and as a result will have swings he makes that will lack the requisite pelvic thrust as he no longer uses the leg as the driving force of said thrust.

 

I would love to spend my time worrying about Tiger and his swing, and how is he going survive it all.............he knows imo. We can all sleep better knowing that he will be just fine, better than that, he's on the right track.

 

I think he has as much or more to do with his swing changes than HH and I think he is orchestrating most of it.

 

You simply can't be in the positions he is in, with the leverage he generates very late in his downswing, and not understand what's going on. It's not a mindless process, he would feel everything. It's not like it's a junior swing all flowing and smooth. It's a violent action with an abundance of resistant forces in place. His awareness of what he is doing has to be very high.

 

+1 Bingo

 

JuNiOR

 

tiger knows more about the golf swing than anybody, so im sure he'll be fine, and if anything's wrong, im sure eather tiger himself or hank will be able to fix it!

Really? Since when? Earlier at TPC he flat out said he kept hitting "spinners" right no matter how hard he rolled his hands. To me that shows he not only doesn't understand his swing but doesn't have total understanding of the ball flight laws. Haney has the yips with the driver and fights a snap hook.

Now that is classic. Tiger doesn't understand his golf swing.

 

67 PGA wins only two guys have more Jack and Sam. 85,834,539 tournament prize money

 

Golf Digest magazine estimated in its February issue that by 2010 Woods could be the first athlete to reach $1 billion in earnings. He earned $123 million total in 2007 for total career earnings of $769 million, according to the magazine.

 

LMAO

 

JuNiOR

 

Edit: 68 wins

[Zach Heusser]

And by the way when this forum was statred the intention was to have a place where people could discuss golf swings....Why not talk about arguably the games greatest champions swing? This forum was not meant to be a launching pad for people to sell books, promote their dvd's or grow their own teaching business. The OP wants to talk about his swing and he is getting kinda flamed for it. What gives??

[TheWoat]

And by the way when this forum was statred the intention was to have a place where people could discuss golf swings....Why not talk about arguably the games greatest champions swing? This forum was not meant to be a launching pad for people to sell books, promote their dvd's or grow their own teaching business. The OP wants to talk about his swing and he is getting kinda flamed for it. What gives??

 

:clapping:

[JD3]

Who is the greatest TGM Tour Player of all time. . . .not counting Brian Gay?

Pressel, youngest major winner on any tour in modern era

[Swoosh-Thud]

And by the way when this forum was statred the intention was to have a place where people could discuss golf swings....Why not talk about arguably the games greatest champions swing? This forum was not meant to be a launching pad for people to sell books, promote their dvd's or grow their own teaching business. The OP wants to talk about his swing and he is getting kinda flamed for it. What gives??

 

Too bad this was overlooked a while back.

[mjulian]

IMO Some of you guys are missing the OP's point. He is only stating a few things that in his opinion are off. IMO TIger can win swinging any way he wants to. His short game and mental toughness are just better than the other guys out there. He would win doing the S&T, steep to shallow, one planing, or even Natural golf. It really doesn't matter.

 

First off, the OP did not only state "a few things that in his opinion are off". He claims that arguably the best player in the history of the sport is clueless as to his own swing fundamentals as well as lacks a basic understanding of the laws of ball flight. Now if he if said that to get a rise out of folks and draw attention to himself, it worked--thus the flaming. If on the other hand, he actually believes that, then he is suffering from some form of delusion and I recommend he visit his nearest mental health professional.

 

I would suggest that the OP adopt a more humble tone when presenting his opinions on the golf swing, as that is all they are, opinions; there is no ONE proper way to get into a good impact position. Furthermore, slamming more successful instructors than himself is bad form.

[bonneau13]

iteach..ive read some of your stuff and have some respect for you but seriously youre just a hater..you never have anything positive to say..always bashing someone..and its funny that you say you asked these teachers and they got it wrong..idk what make you think youre never wrong or anything but sorry if you were so good of a teacher you would maybe be out working with tiger..not buying into the newest swing scam

[iteachgolf]

IMO Some of you guys are missing the OP's point. He is only stating a few things that in his opinion are off. IMO TIger can win swinging any way he wants to. His short game and mental toughness are just better than the other guys out there. He would win doing the S&T, steep to shallow, one planing, or even Natural golf. It really doesn't matter.

 

First off, the OP did not only state "a few things that in his opinion are off". He claims that arguably the best player in the history of the sport is clueless as to his own swing fundamentals as well as lacks a basic understanding of the laws of ball flight. Now if he if said that to get a rise out of folks and draw attention to himself, it worked--thus the flaming. If on the other hand, he actually believes that, then he is suffering from some form of delusion and I recommend he visit his nearest mental health professional.

 

I would suggest that the OP adopt a more humble tone when presenting his opinions on the golf swing, as that is all they are, opinions; there is no ONE proper way to get into a good impact position. Furthermore, slamming more successful instructors than himself is bad form.

Please show me one post where I slammed another instructor. His own statement on why he didn't understand why the ball was push cutting says he doesn't understand it completely. I didn't say he had no understanding. I said he didn't have a complete understanding. If you read all my post you will also see where over 60% of PGA Tour players didn't know the clubface determined initial start direction. I never once said he was clueless and I DO believe very few players actually understand the ball flight laws completely. They use "feel" but when that "feel" doesn't do what they think it should they have no idea how to fix it.

[iteachgolf]

iteach..ive read some of your stuff and have some respect for you but seriously youre just a hater..you never have anything positive to say..always bashing someone..and its funny that you say you asked these teachers and they got it wrong..idk what make you think youre never wrong or anything but sorry if you were so good of a teacher you would maybe be out working with tiger..not buying into the newest swing scam

Nothing positive to say? Other than the lack of extension and excessive rotation of the lead arm he has a great swing and said he was the best athlete on tour. I'm far from always right and I don't try to "bash" anyone. I have no problem questioning someone and disagreeing with someone and when I do I always support it with evidence. There is WAY too much misinformation in golf instruction and I'm very passionate about what I do. The only people you could even attempt to say I've "bashed" would be Breed in one segment where even to a casual observer he was wrong and if you are going to be on TV giving advice I believe your information should be correct and not potentially harmful to the viewing audience. Same with Faldo who constantly says wrong things and misinforming the average golfer who doesn't know any better. When did I say I asked teachers? I said over 60% of the PGA Tour players asked got the question on the ball flight laws wrong. If you are going to "bash" me please at least be accurate.

[bonneau13]

you always have to add this attitude and act like youre right everytime..not all your theories are right..some of your teachings are great so i will give you credit..but honestly..youre trying to bash the best athlete ever..cant you just focus on your teachings and not always post something about it..you really push your s&t/tgm on everyone and thats your believe but come on..theres no 1 way to teach and no 1 way to get into an impact position that produces what that player is looking for..best of luck

[TheWoat]

iteach..ive read some of your stuff and have some respect for you but seriously youre just a hater..you never have anything positive to say..always bashing someone..and its funny that you say you asked these teachers and they got it wrong..idk what make you think youre never wrong or anything but sorry if you were so good of a teacher you would maybe be out working with tiger..not buying into the newest swing scam

 

In my humble opinion, you are way off here. Iteach is one of the few here who gives advice for free, and the advice always makes sense (whether it works or not is up to the player). Iteach is knowledgable and giving his opinion on the golf swing, the question should be whether his opinion is wrong, NOT whether or not he should be giving an opinion. Also, hyperbole doesnt help your argument.

 

Stating that, "Tiger knows cuz he is smart, won umpteen majors, and he has to know" isnt refuting anything what Iteach said. That said, I dont know if Iteach is right overall, and he should give Tiger more credit, BUT Tiger isnt above being critiqued. Thats the point of a forum, to discuss, not draw lines in the sand and annointing certain players as infallible and untouchable...

[iteachgolf]

you always have to add this attitude and act like youre right everytime..not all your theories are right..some of your teachings are great so i will give you credit..but honestly..youre trying to bash the best athlete ever..cant you just focus on your teachings and not always post something about it..you really push your s&t/tgm on everyone and thats your believe but come on..theres no 1 way to teach and no 1 way to get into an impact position that produces what that player is looking for..best of luck

What theories are wrong? TGM is almost limitless in HOW to get to impact. Have you ever read it? Every swing on tour is in there and it is simply a catalog of components that you could use to form a swing that satisfied the 3 imperatives. I think I read 600,000,000,000 or something potential combinations in TGM. I have it written down somewhere.

[Siteseer2]

The OP was about Tiger's swing, and a critique of a current "state of affairs"... good points and very matter of fact... Iteach is knowledgeable and generous with his time... the guys who have brought out the long knives have also tugged this way off topic....another sorry thread that started out about "THE SWING" and is now in the mud...

 

To Iteach, I say ignore the flames and focus on the OP ...

[bonneau13]

congrats on reading whatever you read..thats good to hear..but i think tiger will be fine..youre right that hank and him are going on a "different" path but honestly its just a little premature to say that someone tied for the lead this week and the best player of all time is in trouble..but i agree with you..his consistency is a little off

[bovi]

..He only knows what teachers have told him...

 

I see where you're initial post is coming from. Nice observations. If Tiger continues to exhibit the faults you highlighted then perhaps there is cause for worry. I think its abit premature atm.

 

But I have to say your statement above is a huge exaggeration. I would like to know which present day golf coach or player only knows what they've taught themselves.

 

IMO perhaps why Tiger has shown "poorer" swings is a byproduct of being a feel player. He's said before somedays he hits a fade with an open stance, other days with a closed stance. Also that some days you've got a certain shot shape warming up and you just go with it. Tiger can probably hit a greater variety of shots than any1 of us on this forum, so saying he hasn't a complete idea of what affects ball flight is not really fair.

 

Its probably not too far fetched to assume Tiger wouldn't want to read TGM or understand it to a GSEM (?) level - being a feel player.

[mgranato]

This whole idea of quoting Tiger's wins or money earned as a defense ANYTIME some says something about his action is retarded. Does Tiger think he can get better? YES. Does Hank think he can get better? YES. So why is it 'wrong' when anyone else thinks he can do things better? This notion of infallibility is quite bizarre. It takes a critical eye to recognize the areas that can be improved upon. There is absolutely no 'hate' in criticism when the points made are based on a basic understanding of the topic.

[iteachgolf]

The OP was about Tiger's swing, and a critique of a current "state of affairs"... good points and very matter of fact... Iteach is knowledgeable and generous with his time... the guys who have brought out the long knives have also tugged this way off topic....another sorry thread that started out about "THE SWING" and is now in the mud...

 

To Iteach, I say ignore the flames and focus on the OP ...

 

Recent swing with the bowed and over rolled left wrist

 

 

This is a picture of how he used to release it and if you compare it to the above picture and to the picture below you can see a big difference.

 

[iteachgolf]

..He only knows what teachers have told him...

 

I see where you're initial post is coming from. Nice observations. If Tiger continues to exhibit the faults you highlighted then perhaps there is cause for worry. I think its abit premature atm.

 

But I have to say your statement above is a huge exaggeration. I would like to know which present day golf coach or player only knows what they've taught themselves.

 

IMO perhaps why Tiger has shown "poorer" swings is a byproduct of being a feel player. He's said before somedays he hits a fade with an open stance, other days with a closed stance. Also that some days you've got a certain shot shape warming up and you just go with it. Tiger can probably hit a greater variety of shots than any1 of us on this forum, so saying he hasn't a complete idea of what affects ball flight is not really fair.

 

Its probably not too far fetched to assume Tiger wouldn't want to read TGM or understand it to a GSEM (?) level - being a feel player.

I think people are misunderstanding what I meant. I mean has only had 2 instructors since he was 15 and has only heard their opinions. I'd venture to say most successful teachers have listened to MANY sources and instructors. I know I've spent time with or shadowed several of the current Top 10 and have all either shaped my beliefs on the golf swing or at the very least how to communicate my ideas. I'm simply saying your knowledge can't be too broad when you only have 2 sources of information.

[mjulian]

You say:

 

"Earlier at TPC he (TW) flat out said he kept hitting "spinners" right no matter how hard he rolled his hands. To me that shows he not only doesn't understand his swing but doesn't have total understanding of the ball flight laws. Haney has the yips with the driver and fights a snap hook."

 

Then you say:

 

"I didn't say he had no understanding. I said he didn't have a complete understanding."

 

Sorry that is false. "doesn't understand his swing" = does not understand his swing = "has no understanding". Welcome to the laws of the English language, taught at every college and high school in this country. Perhaps you meant TW lacks a "complete understanding", but that is not what you said.

 

You ask "Please show me one post where I slammed another instructor"

 

Um, your last sentence: "Haney has the yips with the driver and fights a snap hook". What is the purpose of that statement in the context of the discussion? It appears to have no other purpose than to discredit him.

 

Finally,

 

"I DO believe very few (pga tour) players actually understand the ball flight laws completely."

 

That's a pretty absurd statement. Probably what very few tour players can do is describe, in explicit terms, the laws of ball flight. But they wouldn't be playing at the level they do if they didn't know how to work the ball in every imaginable situation; so, of course they understand. Like the quote from Tropic Thunder "I don't know what you call it, I just know the sound it makes when it takes a man's life."

[iteachgolf]

You say:

 

"Earlier at TPC he (TW) flat out said he kept hitting "spinners" right no matter how hard he rolled his hands. To me that shows he not only doesn't understand his swing but doesn't have total understanding of the ball flight laws. Haney has the yips with the driver and fights a snap hook."

 

Then you say:

 

"I didn't say he had no understanding. I said he didn't have a complete understanding."

 

Sorry that is false. "doesn't understand his swing" = does not understand his swing = "has no understanding". Welcome to the laws of the English language, taught at every college and high school in this country. Perhaps you meant TW lacks a "complete understanding", but that is not what you said.

 

You ask "Please show me one post where I slammed another instructor"

 

Um, your last sentence: "Haney has the yips with the driver and fights a snap hook". What is the purpose of that statement in the context of the discussion? It appears to have no other purpose than to discredit him.

 

Finally,

 

"I DO believe very few (pga tour) players actually understand the ball flight laws completely."

 

That's a pretty absurd statement. Probably what very few tour players can do is describe, in explicit terms, the laws of ball flight. But they wouldn't be playing at the level they do if they didn't know how to work the ball in every imaginable situation; so, of course they understand. Like the quote from Tropic Thunder "I don't know what you call it, I just know the sound it makes when it takes a man's life."

Haney having the driver yips and the same miss as Tiger is irrelevant? Haney is very successful and deserves his success but he even wrote a book about his driver yips. It's pretty common knowledge. As for the ball flight laws and them not knowing even the basics, I know I'm right. I ask ever player I teach the same question including the professionals I teach and I'd say only about 20% get it right. The question is "What determines the initial direction the ball travels? Path or Clubface?" That is the question over 60% of the PGA Tour got wrong. I would say that proves that they don't know what really causes the ball to do what it does and it's not about "explicit terms" It couldn't be more simple of a question with a 50/50 chance of getting it right. If you polled people who had never even heard of golf they'd probably have a better percentage of getting it correct.

[Harob11]

I have to give iteach credit here. To even begin a post like this takes balls. And it does seem like iteach is very acute with his perception and analysis.

I think the bottom line here, is that when you're as talented as tiger woods, you're able to get away with doing things that may not be "textbook" and rather, experiment a lot. It seems every tournament Tiger's swing is slightly different (doing one thing slightly different than the previous week) and that's probably because he spends the two weeks following a tournament trying to perfect a certain aspect of his game/swing that he was 100% satisfied with. It's a never ending process.

The guy's the ultimate perfectionist. He could have won at Bethpaige and he'd still be back out practicing the next day, tinkering with his swing. He's proved that. I think he probably enjoys it.

The guy certainly knows the golf swing, no one that insanely competitive and focused and on that level would not learn and be aware of every little detail imaginable. I guarantee he could come on this forum and blow our mind with his knowledge of the golf swing. There's just no chance with the type of person he is, and the countless time he's spent swinging a club, he doesn't know everything and then some regarding the golf swing.

 

P.S. Although not a big fan, Kobe Byrant is an example of a similar athlete to Tiger Woods. He's that same type of ultra obsessive, competitive perfectionist. They're both absolute genius' of their sport. They put it on themselves to dissect every aspect of the game, swing, shot, what have you and completely master it. Not only are they the most talented, they're the most curious, focused and obsessed.

[jhperna]

The OP was about Tiger's swing, and a critique of a current "state of affairs"... good points and very matter of fact... Iteach is knowledgeable and generous with his time... the guys who have brought out the long knives have also tugged this way off topic....another sorry thread that started out about "THE SWING" and is now in the mud...

 

To Iteach, I say ignore the flames and focus on the OP ...

 

Recent swing with the bowed and over rolled left wrist

 

 

This is a picture of how he used to release it and if you compare it to the above picture and to the picture below you can see a big difference.

 

 

i'm sorry but how can we look at a wedge swing and a driver swing for comparison. furthermore, one swing is outdoors in a tournament and the other swing is in a nike facility for a commercial. On the tournament wedge, we have no idea what distance he is from the pin, what club he's using, how much wind is blowing, from which direction the wind is blowing, where that wedge ended up in the relation to what he wanted to do with it, was he playing a knock down shot, was he trying to generate more spin, was he trying to take spin off of the shot etc etc. Tiger is ALWAYS doing something with the golf ball, which will make his tournament swings vary shot to shot, club to club.

[iteachgolf]

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt with the wedge to be honest. A wedge would have the SLOWEST rate of closure especially if it wasn't a full shot. I chose the Nike picture because you better believe that in slow motion in commercials he thought that was the best swing he could put on it knowing that it is probably the most clear and readily available slow motion swing he has made. I've been asking anyone who Tivo'd the swingvision on 11 to post it on youtube and haven't seen it yet.

[JD3]

the pros ive had the pleasure of playing with are consistent w/ what iteach says about not knowing technical aspects of the swing. as a matter of fact they DONT WANT TO. they only want to know what moves, variations or "feels" THEY NEED to hit the ball a certain way. and it's usually very simple stuff about ball position or alignment. they think that knowledge beyond whats needed to play at a high level can be damaging by filling their mind with too much. if they know that for the most part they are naturally getting into the right positions, why make something thats automatic conscious, thereby risk losing the desired automatism?

 

for them it's a confidence game, and visualization and course strategy are more important than mechanics. but most of all THEY SHY AWAY FROM ANYTHING THAT COULD EFFECT THEIR CONFIDENCE, and technical thoughts beyond whats necessary are lumped in that category.

 

of course there are exceptions and a minority are technicians. tiger reminds me a lot of Nicklaus .... a 50/50 mix of feel and mechanics. Hogan was at the mechanics end of the spectrum and the tehcnical nature of his 5 Lessons speaks to that. Daly would be an example of someone at the feel end. id say most are between Daly and Woods, and look to their teachers to have the technical knowledge of which they share only whats necessary with them. kind of like a patient /doctor relationship: what do i have, how do i get rid of it, what do i do to keep it from coming back -- without the data dump of everything they learned in med school.

[mjulian]

Haney having the driver yips and the same miss as Tiger is irrelevant? Haney is very successful and deserves his success but he even wrote a book about his driver yips. It's pretty common knowledge. As for the ball flight laws and them not knowing even the basics, I know I'm right. I ask ever player I teach the same question including the professionals I teach and I'd say only about 20% get it right. The question is "What determines the initial direction the ball travels? Path or Clubface?" That is the question over 60% of the PGA Tour got wrong. I would say that proves that they don't know what really causes the ball to do what it does and it's not about "explicit terms" It couldn't be more simple of a question with a 50/50 chance of getting it right. If you polled people who had never even heard of golf they'd probably have a better percentage of getting it correct.

 

 

I presume that since you ignore it in your last post, that you concede point one, the "TW self-awareness of his swing" point. I guess you're one of those internet posters who never admits to being wrong or mistaken.

 

As for Haney, I never said irrelevant, what I said was you slammed him, which you did then and have done again in your latest post, "Haney having the driver yips and the same miss as Tiger". This implies that Haney's methodology is wrong, that he is teaching Tiger the same miss that he himself has. Right? Seriously, that is the relevancy, that he is passing along a faulty method. Hence, you are denouncing his efficacy as a swing coach.

 

Finally, on the ball flight issue, you miss my point entirely so there is nothing to discuss there. All I will add is that PGA tour pros get the ball to do what they need it to do under very stressful conditions the majority of the time. Which would indicate that apparently not being able to correctly answer the ballflight question you pose has zero correlation to the ability to manipulate ball flight as needed on the course.

[bonneau13]

iteach..just curious so i see that with those angles tigers right wrist is still bent for the driver and for the wedge he rolled his hand over..in your opinion how long is the right wrist supposed to stay bent back and the back of the left wrist flat?

[TourTeacher]

Interesting thread about what people like and dislike about other's swings. I'm just rolling! Hey, everybody is due their opinions so that's fine.

 

 

FACT: The final score is all that matters!

 

 

Interesting, how not much has changed in the past 40 years. Length is still a dominate factor in the game, not driver accuracy.

 

The only important statistic is still the score, - 11.13.67 - SI Vault

 

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...80553/index.htm

 

 

Oh, and it doesn't matter how old you when you started are or how many kids you beat when you are 7. One day a 15 yr old will take up golf for the first time and in two years time kick that 7 yr old's butt when he is 17. I'm just saying. True dat!

[Ezgolfer]

Oh, and it doesn't matter how old you when you started are or how many kids you beat when you are 7. One day a 15 yr old will take up golf for the first time and in two years time kick that 7 yr old's butt when he is 17. I'm just saying. True dat!

 

 

Absolutely correct ... Tiger and Mickelson started playing in diapers , whereas Hogan started when he was 12 .

I am not sure if there is a scientific study to dispute this

[Parker19822]

The OP was about Tiger's swing, and a critique of a current "state of affairs"... good points and very matter of fact... Iteach is knowledgeable and generous with his time... the guys who have brought out the long knives have also tugged this way off topic....another sorry thread that started out about "THE SWING" and is now in the mud...

 

To Iteach, I say ignore the flames and focus on the OP ...

 

Recent swing with the bowed and over rolled left wrist

 

 

This is a picture of how he used to release it and if you compare it to the above picture and to the picture below you can see a big difference.

 

 

Wow. These pictures really prove your point. I agree with your assessment iteach. The old release looks much better in terms of being able to consistently release the club without having to rely on the timing of rolling the right forearm over. I'm a visual person so this really helped me to see what you're talking about.

[Dariusz J.]

It always amazes me when the discussion comes to Woods, especially when trying to dissect his swing motion. Whatever VALID criticism appears, it meets a brutal reaction. Iteach presented some VALID arguments about Woods's motion which I understand perfectly, since his swing is VERY FAR from biomechanical ideal. If someone presented such a swing anonimously for my theoretical analysis I'd have a lot of issues with it as always I have with timing-dependent patterns.

Is it so hard to understand that the criticism does not refer to his ability of winning tournaments but only to rather poor MECHANICS ? Is it so hard to understand that so gifted an athlete Woods is can use a very timing-dependent motion as he uses and still be #1 ? Is it so hard to understand that Tiger's swing is not mechanically flawless despite he will prolly be the winningest golfer of all times in a few years ?

Tiger Woods is not a God of Golf and will never be. Even if he beats Nicklaus's and Snead's records his swing is and will never be a subject of analyses because it is far from being perfect. Simple as that. Same as we, Hogan's fans, would never desperatedly defend our golfing idol when it comes to putting or chipping or flop shots...LOL.

As per Woods's understanding of the golf swing I tend to agree with those who said it is not bad. But claiming that this guy can reach the level of writting another '5 Lessons' is plain ridiculous. Not this level, sorry.

 

Cheers