Inside Down the Line putting aid .....

[Ezgolfer]

Tell me pro's and cons ..

I just bought the Momentus IDL track . Still getting used to it . Any comments from experts and people using this method ?
Follow through feels a bit new to me and i seem to pull occasional puts .

[m2daRizzle]

Its interesting that you seem to be pulling putts because I would think that following through down the line would tend to prevent allowing the putter to realease which would cause a push. I have seen the commercials and am very curious to hear peoples thoughts on this method/ training tool as well.

[Ezgolfer]

It may be an alignment issue . I have been working at home on a 10 f artficial green. I think releasing the toe prematurely closes the face and hence pulls . It sure does put a ton of top spin and good roll on the ball.

[danattherock]

Pros and cons??

For what it is worth, I saw a "Playing Lessons from the Pros" on the Golf Channel yesterday. Tom Watson was the featured player. When asked about SBST or IDL, normal arch opening and closing of the face, etc... , he said he was still trying to figure out which one he preferred

[MMB1500]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' post='2108649' date='Dec 7 2009, 04:58 AM']I just bought the Momentus IDL track . Still getting used to it . Any comments from experts and people using this method ?
Follow through feels a bit new to me and i seem to pull occasional puts .[/quote]

Thinking about picking up one of these myself. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with yours so please keep us updated...

[edelgolf]

Hello,

The inside down the line track is in my opinion a good tool if your a left aimer. Our tour data from the PGA and Nationwide tours is 7 inches left from 6 ft, so if your using tour players to develop your product you will get bias in data. Aim fitting for over a decade shows us that most people aim Anser or rectangular putters to the left. If you noticed in the commercial almost everyone using the track were using a Anser style putter. The one person using a mallet had is right side way higher than his left closing the face so he could use the track.
I am not saying that the track is bad, and if your going to aim left, then this track will benefit you. If you aim right, then it will only create confusion. If you aim straight, then you best not have much rise angle as a lower finish will cause less opening.
It seems the industry focuses on path becasue that is what we can see and try to change. The education behind aiming straight is another thing. Learning how to target correctly by creating the correct gaze patterns is very important. The work done by Geoff Mangum and Craig Farnsworth to name a few. The putter has a significant role in the aim, so there are options and outlets to relate percisely what you need to do and how much. But the claims made that the V.J.'s or Stan Utley's Putting Arcs are incorrect is a totally false claim. I see many tour players who have such poor acceleration patterns, usually short and slow to over accelerated that they actually open the toe so much during the follow through that they have to cut accross it to make a putt.
So, this is a complex issue that can not be fixed by a plane device alone. If it has worked for you then that is great, but tread softly because it may casue more harm than good. When I am out on tour watching pros use all these devices, they usually tap them left or right until the plane matches the face to the relative break. All that is happening is they are bending the plane line, like a slicer aiming left or a hooker aiming right.

Best check your aim first to know exactly the right plan of action. I hope this perspective helps some.

All the best,

David

[chickenpotpie]

I typically use mallets (Ping Piper S, TM itsy, and TM Fontana) and these are my findings (I use a SBST stroke, or at least I try to)

- the back stroke feels wrong because I feel like I'm going off line. I have learned to ignore it.
- the left weight on the spider is the only point of contact on the IDL device, so it is a little hard to keep that particular putter square. You have to move the ball out a half inch, but then you lose contact with the IDL or you just allow yourself to strike the ball towards the toe.
- the follow through portion has helped me, because I learned via a fitting that I actually cut across the ball at impact with a closed face. This was enabled by the fact that I crowded the ball and tended to aim right. By backing up and feeling the follow through (a tightness in my right abdomen), I know I'm putting down the line. The difference was noticeable in the printouts from my fitting.

Overall it's a good tool, but it doesn't really 100% appeal to SBST or gated strokes. It teaches a hybrid stroke. Personally I like the SBST because it's straightforward. Execution may be a different story but that will be the case no matter what!

[danattherock]

David,

Thanks for your insights.

[Smack Daddy]

Thanks for the comments David.

I used a Putting Arc for a couple of years with great results but then....nothing.

This year I tried the Perfect Putting machine which for arc strokes I just couldn't get the feel.

Then I tried SBST (which I always denounced as wrong) on the Perfect Putting machine and, wow, did my putting come around.

The moral....who the heck knows what will work.

[Ezgolfer]

David thanks for your comment . I do have trouble with aiming little left . My misses are left . I will have to see how it works . For short putts SBST rules . I use a face balanced anser style putter .
Butch Harmon /TW use the same style per this video . It is easy to ingrain with the right hand only drill.


[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/video?videoID=32460330001"]http://www.golfdigest.com/video?videoID=32460330001[/url]

[mister2cool]

David, great points.
I have the opposite problem. I don't aim putter left, but I line up my body right. It's an old bad habit from bad iron alignment, which i am working on to fix right now.

Because of my body alignment, my actual path seem to be taking to the outside and then back inside. Trying to be the inside down the line path seem to help me to see how off my body alignment really is. I don't have the tool, so I am just doing the path visually. I guess it's an added benefit of this particular path.

[PuttingDoctor]

Mr. Edel points out some very sound ideas on the IDL training aid.

I've been a proponent of this stroke for some years now as I have told students that it's near impossible to take a back stroke of any length without the putter tracking to the inside.... unless you artificially manipulate the putter or stroke.

I prefer to have the putter on the target line square for as long as possible through impact. The feel is "inside, down the line." I'm fond of telling golfers, "take the face to the target."

Testing with the SAM PuttLab shows a strong propensity of golfers to cut across the path from out to in, or in to out, kind of like a lot of full swings.

One key item Mr. Edel mentions is aim. It's hard to argue with aim as the foundation for success. I find a lot of golfers who do a very good job of overcoming bad aim with very good results at impact. I believe this is a very strong subconscious reaction. Just like distance control the subconscious knows how much effort is required to roll a putt the appropriate distance.

If critical aim is the foundation of a putting stroke the prospect of having to manipulate the club face at impact is moot. Often we see an aim right counteracted with an open face out to in path at impact and or the opposite for an aim left. ( I call this 2 wrongs make a right )

Re-training your eyes and putter face to square is not as difficult as one might imagine. In my experience it takes about 2 weeks of concentrated training.

Regardless of your stroke shape.... Inside to Inside, Straight Back - Straight Through, or Inside Down The Line, learning to aim better at address as a strong foundation to a more automatic trusted stroke.

[putt4_66]

[quote name='PuttingDoctor' post='2112028' date='Dec 8 2009, 02:40 PM']I've been a proponent of this stroke for some years now as I have told students that it's near impossible to take a back stroke of any length without the putter tracking to the inside.... unless you artificially manipulate the putter or stroke.

I prefer to have the putter on the target line square for as long as possible through impact. The feel is "inside, down the line." I'm fond of telling golfers, "take the face to the target."

One key item Mr. Edel mentions is aim. It's hard to argue with aim as the foundation for success. I find a lot of golfers who do a very good job of overcoming bad aim with very good results at impact. I believe this is a very strong subconscious reaction. Just like distance control the subconscious knows how much effort is required to roll a putt the appropriate distance.

If critical aim is the foundation of a putting stroke the prospect of having to manipulate the club face at impact is moot. Often we see an aim right counteracted with an open face out to in path at impact and or the opposite for an aim left. ( I call this 2 wrongs make a right )

Re-training your eyes and putter face to square is not as difficult as one might imagine. In my experience it takes about 2 weeks of concentrated training.

Regardless of your stroke shape.... Inside to Inside, Straight Back - Straight Through, or Inside Down The Line, learning to aim better at address as a strong foundation to a more automatic trusted stroke.[/quote]

Fantastic information and advice. I am a firm believer that aim is 90% of putting. That is, if your aim is wrong you'll have little chance of making the putt from outside gimme range. If your aim is good, you can make more putts and reduce 3-putts even if you have stroke problems. I personally don't like putting stroke training aids. For me a putting stroke is more natural. You just want to get the ball started on your line and worry about distance control.

I use an open, hold and release stroke. Kind of inside down the line, but I do release the toe after holding the face square through the impact area. I use a toe-weighted putter. I love the saying in golf that "You're not making golf swings, you're making golf shots." I believe you can say the same thing about putting. "You're not making a putting stroke, you're making a putt." Look at Jack and Arnie and the guys before video analysis. Jack may be the best or second best putter of all time. His crouched over right side putting would look out of place in a PGA Tour event today with all the guys that have a perfect triangular set up. But, he could out putt them all in his prime.

I was an excellent natural putter when I first started playing golf. Once I got down to a lower handicap I though I could improve by analyzing and correcting problems. I went to a more "modern" setup and stroke. My putting got worse and worse. I threw all that out the window and little by little have been getting my old natural feel for putting back. The one thing I do train on is alignment. For me that is critical. So instead of using a putting stroke training aid, I use an alignment aid. Now, I'm not a fan of any of Pelz's methods. I do like some of his stats and some of his training aids. I use his Lazr Aimer as my alignment training aid. (http://www.pelzgolf.com/dave_pelz_golf_pro_shop/golf_putting_aid_lazr_aimer.aspx) When I can setup and have the face pointing down the line, I can putt lights out. For any veteran golfer, I really think training for alignment is the most important part of putting practice. Then, just use your natural ability to start the putt down your intended target line with your natural feel for distance.

[edelgolf]

Hello,

I think any trainig aid that is plane oriented has to be taken in context. If any of you on this forum have had any experience with Mark Sweeney of Aimpoint, you quickly see that much of the root cause of stroke issues stem in large part to reading greens. Using the Aimpoint system creates the correct read patterns based on slope and the green speed. When used on most players, the Aimpoint read is almost always much higher than the players preceived aim. Aiming low and having higher delivery speeds seems to be the result. So, aiming low of the correct aim line will force the players natural compensation system to push or pull against the slope to get to higher lines. The low line hit it hard approach shrinks the holes capture width so absolute accuracy is needed.
Therefore, trying to adhere to a fixed plane concept is dangerous becasue it would require the player to accurately know the correct break and aim bias to that break. If the player has made the wrong read then the compensation system takes over and will deviate from the intended action. It really comes down to an Aim+path+speed= Read situation, and if areas have bias or inconsistency, then whole procedure is flawed.
So I guess what I am trying to say beyond all the crap I wrote above is what ever procedure you choose, will almost certainly blow up if you don't read the putt with the correct speed. It is for this reason we get all stoked when we use devices on the green and we can pour in putt after putt because we can adjust the process to find the correct alignments. When we are alone by ourselves on the green we will be what we need to be not what we want to be.

So if your confused after using a teaching aid, then the problem could also stem from your green reading skills. Something else to think about.

David

[packet13]

Thanks for the helpful post David.

sean

[mattl2787]

With Inside Down the Line, you open the putter on the way back, but you don't close it past impact?

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='mattl2787' post='2154369' date='Jan 1 2010, 12:32 PM']With Inside Down the Line, you open the putter on the way back, but you don't close it past impact?[/quote]

I don't understand this either. Everyone says you can't hold an SBST stroke without manipulating the face, hence the inside arc. Yet, on the follow through, you send the putter down the line AND rotate the face? Isn't that manipulating the face?

I just sold one of these, and it wasn't until I was packing it up that I realized from the pictures on the box that the face is supposed to close on the follow through. The fitter who sold it to me said I just needed to keep the rear bumper of the putter square to the IDL track. Thus, on the follow through I'd still be square to the line. That makes some sense to me, but still involves some manipulation. Which way is right?

[CHRIS509]

[quote name='PuttingDoctor' post='2112028' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:40 PM']Mr. Edel points out some very sound ideas on the IDL training aid.

I've been a proponent of this stroke for some years now as I have told students that it's near impossible to take a back stroke of any length without the putter tracking to the inside.... unless you artificially manipulate the putter or stroke.

I prefer to have the putter on the target line square for as long as possible through impact. The feel is "inside, down the line." I'm fond of telling golfers, "take the face to the target."

Testing with the SAM PuttLab shows a strong propensity of golfers to cut across the path from out to in, or in to out, kind of like a lot of full swings.

One key item Mr. Edel mentions is aim. It's hard to argue with aim as the foundation for success. I find a lot of golfers who do a very good job of overcoming bad aim with very good results at impact. I believe this is a very strong subconscious reaction. Just like distance control the subconscious knows how much effort is required to roll a putt the appropriate distance.

If critical aim is the foundation of a putting stroke the prospect of having to manipulate the club face at impact is moot. Often we see an aim right counteracted with an open face out to in path at impact and or the opposite for an aim left. ( I call this 2 wrongs make a right )

[b]Re-training your eyes and putter face to square is not as difficult as one might imagine. In my experience it takes about 2 weeks of concentrated training. [/b]
Regardless of your stroke shape.... Inside to Inside, Straight Back - Straight Through, or Inside Down The Line, learning to aim better at address as a strong foundation to a more automatic trusted stroke.[/quote]


Hi Doc,

Can you give me and others an insight into re-training our eyes in relation to a square club face and their aim point/line?

I consider myself a good too very good putter with my natural stroke; however the times that I’m not stroking well my misses are to the left like many here, but I can usually fix it by moving my ball position. (This is my in battle band aid)

I’m sure there are many members here that take great pride in their putting, as i do. And would also appreciate any insight or direction in this very important segment and largely over looked area of the art of putting.

I’m not looking for all your secrets just a nudge in the right direction would be nice.

Thanks Chris

[edelgolf]

Chris,

Happy New Year! First off, I don't believe you have to retrain your eyes. Unless you are reaching for something and always missing it, then maybe, but aim is generally altered by a multitude of factors. Most of which are very changeable with out having to mess with how your brain is wired. It would be best to exhaust other options before you jump into your brain. Besides your best off to figure out how you see things than scrap it and do what someone else thinks you should do.

1. Have someone watch how you pattern your head rotation when you look at the target. Right eye players often rotate the head more level to the ground looking with the right eye. This swings the left eye inside the target line and bias's aim left. You can take a couple of straws or something and affix them to a pair of sunglasses and watch were the the straws point when you rotate your head. Geoff Mangum and Craig Farnsworth have alot of really good information on gaze patterns. If your left eye is not include in the referencing of the geometric planes it will get involved and distort you perception. This is a good place to start.

2. Remember that if you aim left, it is because your mind sees things right, so it closes the face to deal with this perception. It is the oposite if you aim right.

3. The putter head, lines, hosel offset have a huge affect on how your minds eye references geometry for aim patterns. Your putter may be a huge problem and you don't know it. We like the conscious look of certian putter styles, but on a subconscious level they confuse us. If your aiming badly with the putter you have, then look for something on the opposite side of the spectrum.

4. Ball position often does nothing to improve aim, and the place you have placed the ball is because that is how you see it. Moving it from that perspective can set in motion a whole host of other things. Make simple moves first. Work on #1 first and see how you are doing things. I tried moving ball position back for left aimers and seen most aim even more left.

5. Use a laser to validate all your testing, because you will hit on combinations of things that seal the deal. If you don't validate it with a laser you will not truly know if what your doing is valid or not.

6. Once you can consistantly target, then your reading to start worring about speed. Figure the weight of the putter for varying green speed. Pattern to a string for distance, and work on length of stroke and the pace at which you do it. Get your patterns to within 6 inches for 5 or 6 putts. Controlling speed is the ticket.

7. Now that you have confidence in your targeting and speed, the path with fix itself, because you will start to feel how the path either helped or hurt the result. You will naturally gravitate to making better stroke motions and work away from the bad stuff.

I hope this helps, as making verbal explainations on a forum can only provide insight. It is not that your trying to learn anything new, just remember and make patterns with what you already know.

All the best,


David Edel

[Lefty77]

Great thread. My problem is not as much my stroke (inside down the line- which can always use serious work and practice) but my bigger problem is reading the greens. I am spending much more time now reading as much as I can on how to properly read greens; with grain, against grade, down grain etc. Because let's face it- if you cannot read greens properly the best stroke in the world ain't gonna get it in the hole.
If anyone has any recommendations on reading material or aids to assist in reading greens I would appreciate it.
Happy new year everyone!
Alan

[edelgolf]

Hello,

Green reading is what it all leads up to. What is the point if you aim great and have good speed patterns, etc but do not aim to the correct line. The Aimpointgolf.com process is a fantastic place to start and takes the guess work out of what to do. Find Mark Sweeney or an authorized fitter on the website

David

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='CHRIS509' post='2154439' date='Jan 1 2010, 01:09 PM'][quote name='PuttingDoctor' post='2112028' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:40 PM']Mr. Edel points out some very sound ideas on the IDL training aid.

I've been a proponent of this stroke for some years now as I have told students that it's near impossible to take a back stroke of any length without the putter tracking to the inside.... unless you artificially manipulate the putter or stroke.

I prefer to have the putter on the target line square for as long as possible through impact. The feel is "inside, down the line." I'm fond of telling golfers, "take the face to the target."

Testing with the SAM PuttLab shows a strong propensity of golfers to cut across the path from out to in, or in to out, kind of like a lot of full swings.

One key item Mr. Edel mentions is aim. It's hard to argue with aim as the foundation for success. I find a lot of golfers who do a very good job of overcoming bad aim with very good results at impact. I believe this is a very strong subconscious reaction. Just like distance control the subconscious knows how much effort is required to roll a putt the appropriate distance.

If critical aim is the foundation of a putting stroke the prospect of having to manipulate the club face at impact is moot. Often we see an aim right counteracted with an open face out to in path at impact and or the opposite for an aim left. ( I call this 2 wrongs make a right )

[b]Re-training your eyes and putter face to square is not as difficult as one might imagine. In my experience it takes about 2 weeks of concentrated training. [/b]
Regardless of your stroke shape.... Inside to Inside, Straight Back - Straight Through, or Inside Down The Line, learning to aim better at address as a strong foundation to a more automatic trusted stroke.[/quote]


Hi Doc,

Can you give me and others an insight into re-training our eyes in relation to a square club face and their aim point/line?

I consider myself a good too very good putter with my natural stroke; however the times that I'm not stroking well my misses are to the left like many here, but I can usually fix it by moving my ball position. (This is my in battle band aid)

I'm sure there are many members here that take great pride in their putting, as i do. And would also appreciate any insight or direction in this very important segment and largely over looked area of the art of putting.

I'm not looking for all your secrets just a nudge in the right direction would be nice.

Thanks Chris
[/quote]

Hello Chris, take a look at [url="http://puttingdoctor.net/prod02.htm"]http://puttingdoctor.net/prod02.htm[/url] for a very simplistic approach. Like Mr. Edel I'm not a proponent of any one particular stroke theory but submit that proper focused practice can make you a better putter. I've had some great success in helping folks get over some very poor fundamentals using this little training aid.

[CHRIS509]

My apologies David & everyone here, Happy New Year, may we all can everything we look at!

Thanks for your reply; you have given us some great information.

Personally :-

1. I like the head rotation idea with the straws. It’s some thing I’ve worked on in the past I’ll do some sessions using this.
2. Understand this and I’m aware
3. Always aimed and rolled my best with a 8802 type blade. Tried others, hated most.
4. My band aid fix is to move the ball back a tad. Probably because on those days I might be over rotating slightly. See your No2
5. Will buy one, any recommendations.
6. Never had much of a problem here along with green reading.

Thanks again for your insight; I’ll put your ideas into practise.

Can I just say sorry to the OP for messing up his topic?

Cheers Chris

[Will Par]

I'm going to take a contrary position and comment that putting is just not this complicated. The problem with using any training device is that it makes the player focus on the mechanics of the putting stroke. No one will ever putt well thinking about the stroke itself. The only thing you need to do to putt well is focus all your attention on seeing the correct line to the hole and keeping that line in mind while you make the putting stroke. Use any type of stroke that is natural and strike the ball squarely in a manner that will roll it along the line you have chosen. If you can stroke the ball solidly along the line you have chosen, your stroke is fine mechanically. That is not difficult to do if you are thinking about the line while you make the stroke.

[CHRIS509]

[quote name='Will Par' post='2154676' date='Jan 1 2010, 08:43 PM']I'm going to take a contrary position and comment that putting is just not this complicated. The problem with using any training device is that it makes the player focus on the mechanics of the putting stroke. No one will ever putt well thinking about the stroke itself. The only thing you need to do to putt well is focus all your attention on seeing the correct line to the hole and keeping that line in mind while you make the putting stroke. Use any type of stroke that is natural and strike the ball squarely in a manner that will roll it along the line you have chosen. If you can stroke the ball solidly along the line you have chosen, your stroke is fine mechanically. That is not difficult to do if you are thinking about the line while you make the stroke.[/quote]


Totally agree with your method, simple is best. Personally I just think about my target, a let it roll while I’m playing.

But I’m always looking for 5 or 10% improvement, and knowledge is king.

Cheers Chris

[DNice26]

Anyone tried this putting training aid? If so, how is it?

[Crazy 8]

I have one and used it for about 18 months now, I am a 4 handicap golfer and always been a streaky putter, either poor or very good! I believe that having a putting method, any you can stick with, is a major benefit to consistency. I also believe that Butch is a great teacher and Tiger putted better under Butch, maybe the best of all time!

I found the IDL putting aid great, it has improved my putting technique as well as helping me when I feel a little lost. With use this will help you improve your putting greatly.

However, one important thing to know. You have to putt with a toe balanced putter and let the putter open and close and face balanced putter does not do this! If you look at the new Ping putters then you can see they now grade them on angle of approach to the ball, you need the Red type, inside approach. If you use a 2 ball or Spider type of putter then you need to putt shut to open or run the toe of the putter along a straight edge. Do not use the IDL method.

There are other putting aids more suitable for straight back and through putters.

I hope this helps.