Low Lofted Drivers coming back?

[ava08]

Just heard Phil has a 6 degree driver

Am I screwed up on this way of thinking? With the new groove rule in effect the balls that the pros are playing will have to have more spin. With that in mind does that mean we'll see a move back to lower lofted drivers. As I said in the heading Phil has a 6 degree driver. I remeber DLIII used to play somewhere between a 6.5-7.5 degree driver back in the ballata days.

[KYMAR]

I heard Rosie say that on golf central this AM and waited for the replay to make sure I heard it correctly. I am a little surprised he is going with something that low. I played an 8* for a while last year great on dry fairways, very little run out when even damp. And I am a dew sweeper so it's in the basement. when its wet out. I honestly can't imagine the benefit of a 6 on tour. But he is on tour, and has won almost 40 tournaments and 3 Majors, so I guess he can hit a conforming soup can if he wants to. Not really sure the manufacturers are making a ball with more spin to combat the groove issue. In fact i posted a thing last week that i took from titleist's website stating plainly they have no plan to adjust the ball at all. At least in the ProV1 and 1X as the benefit simply doesn't outweigh the detriment.

[WesleyD]

[quote name='KYMAR' date='24 January 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1264337454' post='2200607']
I heard Rosie say that on golf central this AM and waited for the replay to make sure I heard it correctly. I am a little surprised he is going with something that low. I played an 8* for a while last year great on dry fairways, very little run out when even damp. And I am a dew sweeper so it's in the basement. when its wet out. I honestly can't imagine the benefit of a 6 on tour. But he is on tour, and has won almost 40 tournaments and 3 Majors, so I guess he can hit a conforming soup can if he wants to. Not really sure the manufacturers are making a ball with more spin to combat the groove issue. In fact i posted a thing last week that i took from titleist's website stating plainly they have no plan to adjust the ball at all. At least in the ProV1 and 1X as the benefit simply doesn't outweigh the detriment.
[/quote]

I think that post from titleist was just to keep their sales of the current ball line up high, I almost guarantee that they release a spinnier ball in the next 12 months...

http://www.callawaygolf.com/Global/en-US/Products/GolfBalls/Touri%28s%29.html

What's interesting is that tiger was playing a 10* dymo 380...

[KintamaTP]

[quote name='ava08' date='24 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1264334689' post='2200574']
Am I screwed up on this way of thinking? With the new groove rule in effect the balls that the pros are playing will have to have more spin. With that in mind does that mean we'll see a move back to lower lofted drivers. As I said in the heading Phil has a 6 degree driver. I remeber DLIII used to play somewhere between a 6.5-7.5 degree driver back in the ballata days.
[/quote]

Well may be it's just for the first couple of tourneys out here in California, where it's been raining very hard and everything is very wet, very soggy, and very soft. And, we're expecting more rain in the next couple of weeks, so that sort of conditions is going to continue, and perhaps he's practicing with it to get used to it and use it for such conditions. I mean I just played a couple of rounds immediately after the rains, and it's just mud out there. I'm sure he's not going to use it all the time in normal conditions, if it means that the ball will run out into the rough. But with the wet, muddy conditions we have now, there is absolutely no run-out, the ball just lands and sits. You're probably losing 20 to 30 yards in these soft conditions.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

One thing I can tell you. I was at the President's Cup last year, and Phil's trajectory with the driver was demonstrably higher than any other guy out there. He might be trying to bring down the flight without any kind of a real swing change. Regardless, it's my guess that the 6* isn't too much of a departure from what he normally plays anyway.

[Hifade]

I think alot has to do with the make up of the driver head and the shaft. For example, you can have a high spin, LCG style head with a lower kick shaft that requires much less loft, otherwise it would go straight up in the air. It's no different that having a 10.5* driver with a high CoG coupled with a high kick, low spin shaft. Many would be hard pressed to get that off the ground. To me the thing is, there is no "standard" when talking about this stuff. One company's 7.5* can be the same as another company's 10*......add shafts to the equation and ANYTHING is possible.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='KintamaTP' date='24 January 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1264348813' post='2200868']
[quote name='ava08' date='24 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1264334689' post='2200574']
Am I screwed up on this way of thinking? With the new groove rule in effect the balls that the pros are playing will have to have more spin. With that in mind does that mean we'll see a move back to lower lofted drivers. As I said in the heading Phil has a 6 degree driver. I remeber DLIII used to play somewhere between a 6.5-7.5 degree driver back in the ballata days.
[/quote]

Well may be it's just for the first couple of tourneys out here in California, where it's been raining very hard and everything is very wet, very soggy, and very soft. And, we're expecting more rain in the next couple of weeks, so that sort of conditions is going to continue, and perhaps he's practicing with it to get used to it and use it for such conditions. I mean I just played a couple of rounds immediately after the rains, and it's just mud out there. I'm sure he's not going to use it all the time in normal conditions, if it means that the ball will run out into the rough. But with the wet, muddy conditions we have now, there is absolutely no run-out, the ball just lands and sits. You're probably losing 20 to 30 yards in these soft conditions.
[/quote]
Why on earth would he want to go to several degrees LESS loft when the conditions are allowing for zero runout? It would cost him a substantial amount of carry...

[Hstead]

With the improvement in shafts these days, and the ability to change the flight with weighting inside the club head, I can't imagine why in the worked Phil would go that route. Personally, I am experimenting with more loft and lower launching low spin shafts. The more loft I can play the straighter I hit it, due to the decrease in side spin. I am a high ball hitter and generate a lot of spin. I used to play a 6.5* driver back in the day, before shafts were so much better. I even hit the 6.5* high. Now I am playing a Tour issue Adams with a 9* loft. I am going to buy a 10.5 and play around with it. I can hit my 9* Adams with the White Board in it three times lower than my old Titleist 975D 6.5*. Phil can do some stupid chit with his setup. Remember the Open with no Driver. Or the MAsters with two drivers. I know he did well with the 2 driver setup, but if it was such a great idea, why did he abandon it and no one else has done it. Phil is a bit of a nut case with his equipment. He likes to change often and tinker. I bet he is a closet ho and is a member of this site. LOL

[mgranato]

This is all about angle of attack. The holy grail for optimum distance is using the least amount of loft that putts you in your ideal launch angle. This can't be done by shafts, it has to be done with angle of attack. Phil was one of the higher swing speed guys on tour who had a negative attack angle with his driver. They could still pound it out there, but they were far from optimal. I remember hearing towards the later half of last year that Phil was working on increasing his angle of attack - partly to claim the distance he [b][i]could[/i][/b] be producing, and partly to prep for the higher spinning ball he'd be playing this year. A few degrees of positive launch angle with a low lofted head would produce low spinning bombs with his type of swing speed. The other half of the equation would be how he controls the direction of those bombs - that might be the determining factor of how long he plays this setup

[Hstead]

mgranato, you seem to be very knowledgeable about Trackman data, and I may be way wrong, but are you saying that you can't change the flight characteristics, launch angle and spin with the shaft or by placing the weight differently inside the club head? I know angle of attack is important, but I thought I read where the Trackman data demonstrated how many guys on tour actually have a descending angle at impact with the driver, and hence they play more loft. I also thought I read where the ideal angle is actually downward and not upward. I may be wrong, but I am nearly 99.9% positive that the shaft can change the launch angle. Do you really think that a ladies flex, weak tip, 8.0 torque, low kick point, 55 gram shaft is going to launch the ball the same as a 125g, high klick, 1.5 toruqe, XX flex? I think not even if the angle of attack is identical.

[smackygolf]

[quote name='sbguard9' date='24 January 2010 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1264341112' post='2200668']
[quote name='KYMAR' date='24 January 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1264337454' post='2200607']
I heard Rosie say that on golf central this AM and waited for the replay to make sure I heard it correctly. I am a little surprised he is going with something that low. I played an 8* for a while last year great on dry fairways, very little run out when even damp. And I am a dew sweeper so it's in the basement. when its wet out. I honestly can't imagine the benefit of a 6 on tour. But he is on tour, and has won almost 40 tournaments and 3 Majors, so I guess he can hit a conforming soup can if he wants to. Not really sure the manufacturers are making a ball with more spin to combat the groove issue. In fact i posted a thing last week that i took from titleist's website stating plainly they have no plan to adjust the ball at all. At least in the ProV1 and 1X as the benefit simply doesn't outweigh the detriment.
[/quote]

I think that post from titleist was just to keep their sales of the current ball line up high, I almost guarantee that they release a spinnier ball in the next 12 months...

http://www.callawaygolf.com/Global/en-US/Products/GolfBalls/Touri%28s%29.html

What's interesting is that tiger was playing a 10* dymo 380...
[/quote]
Titleist players are ALREADY using a different ball. Don't believe the hype. I'll get some pics up if I can--if I'm allowed. My buddy has told me that they spin a lot more then the ProV1X he was playing last year on tour.

[GARETH1971]

I`ll just stick to 9.5*, alot easier to hit.

[AltusBeliever]

As the ball spin increases the driver lofts will go down and stiffer tipped shafts will be used. High speed players won't need the loft to get the ball in the air as the spin will do it. Probably will be ballooning therefore stiffer tips to hopefully take a little spin off the ball (if you believe the shaft can actually do that).

[KintamaTP]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' date='24 January 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1264350845' post='2200934']
[quote name='KintamaTP' date='24 January 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1264348813' post='2200868']
[quote name='ava08' date='24 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1264334689' post='2200574']
Am I screwed up on this way of thinking? With the new groove rule in effect the balls that the pros are playing will have to have more spin. With that in mind does that mean we'll see a move back to lower lofted drivers. As I said in the heading Phil has a 6 degree driver. I remeber DLIII used to play somewhere between a 6.5-7.5 degree driver back in the ballata days.
[/quote]

Well may be it's just for the first couple of tourneys out here in California, where it's been raining very hard and everything is very wet, very soggy, and very soft. And, we're expecting more rain in the next couple of weeks, so that sort of conditions is going to continue, and perhaps he's practicing with it to get used to it and use it for such conditions. I mean I just played a couple of rounds immediately after the rains, and it's just mud out there. I'm sure he's not going to use it all the time in normal conditions, if it means that the ball will run out into the rough. But with the wet, muddy conditions we have now, there is absolutely no run-out, the ball just lands and sits. You're probably losing 20 to 30 yards in these soft conditions.
[/quote]
Why on earth would he want to go to several degrees LESS loft when the conditions are allowing for zero runout? It would cost him a substantial amount of carry...
[/quote]


Well....... if you hit the ball high, normally, and are getting a little bit of a roll, as opposed to a low-mid trajectory and getting a LOT of roll......... if these extremely soft conditions (not like what you're seeing in Palm Springs, I'm talking about soggy fairways that have absolutely no run at all) make the ball literally PLUG where it lands - you might decide to use a club that you can STING and make roll a good distance.
So why on earth not? I know I would. The opposite would be, playing on rock-hard-pan conditions where if you hit a low ball, you have no chance of stopping it, you'll probably use a club that you can get up high and land softly. Sometimes you might want that, so you can stop it from running off into the bush.

May be he'll carry 2 drivers again, one for high and one for low LOL

[jmvargas]

considering his excellent end to 2009 i really think that phil will have one of his best years if not THE best this year.

i am a great believer in the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it"..

i can only hope all this tweaking won't affect his performance and with all his talent it probably wont but still..........

PS..but then again at their level mere mortals like me can't really appreciate what goes on in their heads.....oh well...

[gvogel]

[quote name='cAsE sEnSiTiVe ' date='24 January 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1264350290' post='2200917']
One thing I can tell you. I was at the President's Cup last year, and Phil's trajectory with the driver was demonstrably higher than any other guy out there. He might be trying to bring down the flight without any kind of a real swing change. Regardless, it's my guess that the 6* isn't too much of a departure from what he normally plays anyway.
[/quote]

Phil is a classic tinkerer. We'll see how a 6* driver works under competition - a whole different environment than the practice tee or a practice round.

Hope he still has, intact, the driver that he used at the end of last year.

[MtlJeff]

Sigh....Phil's biggest foe is time to experiment. Why change Phil, why???

[jwalaballa]

[quote name='KintamaTP' date='24 January 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1264379162' post='2201765']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' date='24 January 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1264350845' post='2200934']
[quote name='KintamaTP' date='24 January 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1264348813' post='2200868']
[quote name='ava08' date='24 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1264334689' post='2200574']
Am I screwed up on this way of thinking? With the new groove rule in effect the balls that the pros are playing will have to have more spin. With that in mind does that mean we'll see a move back to lower lofted drivers. As I said in the heading Phil has a 6 degree driver. I remeber DLIII used to play somewhere between a 6.5-7.5 degree driver back in the ballata days.
[/quote]

Well may be it's just for the first couple of tourneys out here in California, where it's been raining very hard and everything is very wet, very soggy, and very soft. And, we're expecting more rain in the next couple of weeks, so that sort of conditions is going to continue, and perhaps he's practicing with it to get used to it and use it for such conditions. I mean I just played a couple of rounds immediately after the rains, and it's just mud out there. I'm sure he's not going to use it all the time in normal conditions, if it means that the ball will run out into the rough. But with the wet, muddy conditions we have now, there is absolutely no run-out, the ball just lands and sits. You're probably losing 20 to 30 yards in these soft conditions.
[/quote]
Why on earth would he want to go to several degrees LESS loft when the conditions are allowing for zero runout? It would cost him a substantial amount of carry...
[/quote]


Well....... if you hit the ball high, normally, and are getting a little bit of a roll, as opposed to a low-mid trajectory and getting a LOT of roll......... if these extremely soft conditions (not like what you're seeing in Palm Springs, I'm talking about soggy fairways that have absolutely no run at all) make the ball literally PLUG where it lands - you might decide to use a club that you can STING and make roll a good distance.
So why on earth not? I know I would. The opposite would be, playing on rock-hard-pan conditions where if you hit a low ball, you have no chance of stopping it, you'll probably use a club that you can get up high and land softly. Sometimes you might want that, so you can stop it from running off into the bush.

May be he'll carry 2 drivers again, one for high and one for low LOL
[/quote]

I disagree on this logic. If its really soft, they're not going to get much roll no matter how low or high their ball flight is. If it's soft you'd actually want more loft to maximize carry. If it's hard, a lower launch would be favored for more roll. If a player wants a ball to go "high and land softly", they use a 3 wood, etc.

[mgranato]

[quote name='Hstead' date='24 January 2010 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1264354722' post='2201059']
mgranato, you seem to be very knowledgeable about Trackman data, and I may be way wrong, but are you saying that you can't change the flight characteristics, launch angle and spin with the shaft or by placing the weight differently inside the club head? [/quote]

Changing shafts will produce smaller changes to launch and spin than a change in loft. A shaft change is more of a fine tuning deal. The shaft will only bend forward to a point where the CofG of the head aligns with the CofG of the shaft - usually around 1-1.5" and adds in the ball park of .5-1.0 additional degrees of loft. If the CofG in the head is moved around, it will have the corresponding influence on the forward bend - but still by these smaller amounts. Compare that with say going from a 10* head to an 8* head. By comparison, that would be a much more noticeable change in launch and spin with all other factors being equal. They both can change flight characteristics, they just do so in differing degrees.

[quote]I know angle of attack is important, but I thought I read where the Trackman data demonstrated how many guys on tour actually have a descending angle at impact with the driver, and hence they play more loft. I also thought I read where the ideal angle is actually downward and not upward. I may be wrong, but I am nearly 99.9% positive that the shaft can change the launch angle. [/quote]

You are correct, the Tour average with a driver is -1.3* AoA. Not to suggest that these guys aren't fitted, because they have other factors to consider than just optimizing distance, but a descending AoA is not optimal for distance. They also average 112 mph of clubhead speed, so they can "get away" with less optimizing than the average player. The downside of the descending AoA is that is requires more loft to achieve the proper launch angle to get close to optimal carry. When you introduce more loft, by default, you introduce more spin. Strictly speaking about optimizing distance, hitting down with more loft is the opposite of what you want to do.

[quote]Do you really think that a ladies flex, weak tip, 8.0 torque, low kick point, 55 gram shaft is going to launch the ball the same as a 125g, high klick, 1.5 toruqe, XX flex? I think not even if the angle of attack is identical.
[/quote]

To be most effective, the shaft has to fit the transition, tempo, release, and strength of the player. If the play is fit into the ladies flex, then no, the XX flex wont work very well. If the player is fit into the XX flex, then no, the ladies flex won't work very well either. However, if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly, you're suggesting the ladies flex will bend so far forward (because of all the characteristics you mentioned) that it would dramatically increase the the launch angle - especially when compared to the XX flex. Sure, you will get a higher launch from the ladies soft tip just like you would from a XX flex with a soft tip (provided one exists) than you would with a stiff tipped shaft. But you are still just dealing with small degrees of change because, even in the ladies flex, the shaft will only bend forward to the point where the CofG of the head and shaft line up. Just because the flex is much weaker does not mean the CoG of the head will jet past the CofG of the shaft to produce the dramatic increase in additional loft.

That's the "clinical" explanation provided you could find one person to swing those two different shafts in exactly the same way - which for all practical purposes would never happen. A 112 mph player would be all over the place with that ladies flex because of the effects it would have on his path, timing, and release if it was swung with the same swing as he would with the XX flex. So in a practical sense, no way would those two shafts produce the same launch for the same player - not so much because of the shafts effect on the ball, but because of the shafts effect on the player/swing.

[mat562]

The idea that he may have worked to change his angle of attack seems plausible to me. When he first started working with Butch Harmon it was reported that Mickelson was a player who had a slight downward impact with the driver. Harmon has discussed Mickelson's impact position during his stints as a commentator for the UK feed of the WGC events and it sounds as though a change is something that has been in the offing for a while.

The groove issue, and the possibility of modified balls to offset the changes in ball spin may well be the watershed that's prompted MIckelson to make some changes to his driver impact conditions. If he's now consistently achieving a more level or upward impact it's logical to change to club that's a couple of degrees or so stronger lofted in order to optimise his launch angle and to get the ballflight he wants. Six degrees or so is a viable loft if he's now hitting the ball meaningfully on the up, particularly if he's playing a ball model that spins a bit more than a previous ball.

100% conjecture, but you never know.

[mgranato]

[quote name='mat562' date='24 January 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1264394345' post='2202331']
The idea that he may have worked to change his angle of attack seems plausible to me. When he first started working with Butch Harmon it was reported that Mickelson was a player who had a slight downward impact with the driver. Harmon has discussed Mickelson's impact position during his stints as a commentator for the UK feed of the WGC events and it sounds as though a change is something that has been in the offing for a while.

The groove issue, and the possibility of modified balls to offset the changes in ball spin may well be the watershed that's prompted MIckelson to make some changes to his driver impact conditions. If he's now consistently achieving a more level or upward impact it's logical to change to club that's a couple of degrees or so stronger lofted in order to optimise his launch angle and to get the ballflight he wants. Six degrees or so is a viable loft if he's now hitting the ball meaningfully on the up, particularly if he's playing a ball model that spins a bit more than a previous ball.

100% conjecture, but you never know.
[/quote]

What's conjecture among friends? It does make sense (on paper) that he at least experiment with the idea. Phil has always enjoyed chasing the long ball. However, going from descending to ascending is a heck of a change to make, and usually doesn't happen too quickly. Be interesting to know what the specs were on his driver at the end of the year when he was playing so well.

[mat562]

[quote name='mgranato' date='25 January 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1264395419' post='2202365']
Phil has always enjoyed chasing the long ball.
[/quote]

Very true.

Apparently, one of the things that Harmon and Mickelson couldn't see eye to eye over when they initially started working together six or seven years back was Mickelson's unwillingness to give up even a few yards from the tee in favour of increased accuracy. Harmon saw straighter driving as key to any improvement in Mickelson's performance; Mickelson apparently flat out refused - initially - to give it any consideration, causing the two to part ways according to Harmon.

It was only when Mickelson came round to Harmon's line of thinking - and, coincidentally, started winning and playing consistently better golf, as well as bagging majors - that the pair started seeing eye to eye and working together on a regular basis with accuracy as a cornerstone of their thinking. Even now though, Harmon says that Mickelson is still somewhat reticent about any mechanics that rein in his length with the driver.

Everyone remembers how much Mickelson enjoyed ribbing Tiger Woods about the fact that he went from being marginally the shorter driver of the two to being appreciably longer from the tee as well as, at about the same time, making the notorious 'inferior equipment' remark.

[KintamaTP]

[quote name='jwalaballa' date='24 January 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1264392060' post='2202263']
I disagree on this logic. If its really soft, they're not going to get much roll no matter how low or high their ball flight is. If it's soft you'd actually want more loft to maximize carry. If it's hard, a lower launch would be favored for more roll. If a player wants a ball to go "high and land softly", they use a 3 wood, etc.
[/quote]
If that's the case, then why does Titleist make one ball that rolls and one that flies, but both supposedly end up about the same place?
[attachment=528423:2008_dt_carry_roll_banner.jpg]

And if you were to use a 3 wood, you would be hitting it even shorter off the tee. The Pros count on the roll for their distance, a part of the Driver that amateurs do not quite understand when it comes to the actual, final distance where the ball comes to rest, is due to a lot of roll out, is how the Pros can get over 300 yards a lot. Especially when they talk about courses playing hard and fast. When it's soft, you never hear them talk about how far their drives are going, and you don't hear it from the commentators either. But they do talk about the ball staying in play, but that they are further back from the green.
Yes I do understand that you would want to hit it as far in the air as possible, but considering we're talking about lower lofted clubs, I thought......... plus a lot of the good wind players hit the ball lower naturally too. I'm not saying Phil has ever been good in the wind, but may be he's seriously gearing up for the British Open and courses such as those that may have more wind than usual. But at least for the next month or so, we're expecting more rain in California, which also includes wind, but it also means that the ground will be soft.

[davidthibault]

Hey... By the way, I won't quote him because his post is just too long, but most of the guys who think they know all about shaft must read MGRANATO post in this thread... Dead on it. Shafts still remain important, but as we all love to know the golf dynamics, each and everyone of us should know that... I had the same information from a Callaway engineer a year ago in Carlsbad and just surprised me so much but makes lots of sense when you think about it...

I'd also be really surprised to see a tour player using a 6 degree driver considering that heads are giving WAY less spin than in the past... 6* of loft isn't that much from a ft9-th when you consider that this head gives NO spin or so...

[tncup]

years ago I had 2 975D drivers, one an 8.5 with a prolite X shaft, and the other a 6.5 with a prolite S shaft, they were identical except for the lofts and shaft flex. I hit the 6.5 about 30% higher than the 8.5. that taught me a lesson about lofts, it's all relative to the shaft.

[mosesgolf]

In my younger days, I played a 7.5* driver. It sure did run out a lot in the summer but no way in heck I can play that now. If anyone can, it's Phil though. Phil's a tinkerer so he may be just experimenting with it and don't forget he's also the guy who put 2 drivers in the bag at the Masters.

[huskerpower_105]

id figure with the new groove rules guys would be adding loft and not trying to rip it anymore to try and stay in the fairway to control the ball better... guess not. but butch and phil are to of the smartest guys in the game and im sure they have thought this out between the two as well as with callaway and they wouldnt do anything to hurt phils game. i for one hope he has an outstanding year after all hes been thru recently.

[golfware]

And Phil was using a 7* FT-9 TA during the Prez Cup. He was killing the ball!

[slanger]

Doesn't he have a problem with hanging back on his back side a little too much? I know he's one of the best players and it's not a major problem thats holding his game back, but I read somewhere that hes been trying to transfer his weight forward more on the follow through. Maybe this is kinda a fail safe in case he really hangs back and adds a fair amount of loft to the face. just a thought

EDIT:
Here is the article
http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1886581-11,00.html

in the actual issue I feel like it said something more about it causing slices and high balls, but i could be wrong.

[chris9594]

some golfers have strange loft like zach or dustin johnso i forgot which one uses a 11 degree driver because he the face is so closed at impact
and that was at the sbs so i dont know really