Scott McCarron

[Bubb]

I am not a fan of long putters and would not at all mind if they were banned. But there is nothing in the rules close to banning what McCarron uses, so he is not flouting the intent of any rule. I think he has always used a chest-length putter by the way, not a belly putter.

Mickelson is using a club that is technically approved, but doesn't really belong on the approved list, and everyone knows it and knows why. I predict the rule will soon be changed or dealt with in a way (maybe by implementing a series of local rules banning the club at each venue) that eliminates it's use going forward. If / when this happens, McCarron will be vindicated.

I applaud McCarron for taking a stand. He is a multiple tour winner on the PGA tour by the way. Most of us would trade careers with him. I would have hoped Phil was above looking to exploit the loopholes in life. He didn't exactly take the high road. Cheater? Technically, no.

[gvogel]

[quote name='Trock' date='02 February 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1265143455' post='2222722']
[b]Go back to last years grooves and adjust the setup for the tour events......mandatory 6 - 10 inch rough[/b] and greens at 15 on the stimpmeter are a couple of my ideas.

I think the lawsuit and ruling with Ping has the tour and USGA in a tight spot. I can't wait to hear how the meeting with the players went today.
[/quote]

Oh boy, that would be interesting - not! All we would see would be guys teeing off with 3-woods, hybrids and long irons.

Hitting the ball long with a driver has always been part of the game, and it is such fun when we ams get ahold of one! Do you really want to remove that from professional golf.

Besides, without driver sales, the equipment companies (particularly TaylorMade) would tank.

Boring!

[crazygolfnut]

[quote name='Trock' date='02 February 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1265143455' post='2222722']
Go back to last years grooves and adjust the setup for the tour events......mandatory 6 - 10 inch rough and greens at 15 on the stimpmeter are a couple of my ideas.

I think the lawsuit and ruling with Ping has the tour and USGA in a tight spot. I can't wait to hear how the meeting with the players went today.
[/quote]

Actually I think they should slow down the greens to about a 7 or 8 on some greens then 10 to 11 on others. The rough should be high on some holes and low on others. Make them play like "normal" golfers, on an imperfect course. Dead grass, unraked bunkers, etc. That would fix em!

[2bGood]

The whole "spirit of the rules" thing is stupid. When a guy breaks a rule, but it wasn't against the "spirit of the rules" he still gone lose strokes.

Kneel on a towel to keep your pants clean - I am sure that is not against "the spirit of the rule" but you will get dinged for it.

Ground your putter and the WIND moves your ball 1/8" - Dinged

I am sure we can all think allot of other instances where "the spirit" don't mean a thing.

[Ace In The Hole]

I think the reason Phil has the club in his bag is for the very reason that he submited a conforming groove wedge, that the USGA would not put on the approved list because it spun the ball at to high an RPM, now that is some serious BS on USGA's part, personally if I was on the board of directors for the USGA someone would be losing their job, this was slapped together at best, and was not implimented properly, it was rushed in before taking care of all angles (The Ping law suit) being the largest.

[justhackin]

[quote]This entire ordeal is subjective and really never should have received that much attention.[/quote]

I agree 110%!!

And then Phil suggests that "some one else" might handle it??

Just sicking!

hackin

[Sawgrass]

McCarron, a PAC representative, waits until late January 2010 to draw attention to the new groove rule decison made public on 8/5/08. It was clearly stated a year and a half ago that an exception was being made for the Eye 2. If he is such a golf rules/spirit crusader, what the hell was he doing all that time? (Or for that matter since the USGA settlement in 1990, as others have appropriately pointed out.) If he truly believes that this issue is so important, he should resign his PAC position based on his own failure to serve the players who he is supposed to support.

All this pompus "I personally define and then defend the spirit of the game" is too much to bare. No one person has the standing to do that. Not even Jack. The USGA should do that as a body, and they have -- all the while approving the Eye 2.

It's fair to test and select the best approved driver for you, but it's cheating to test and select the approved Ping Eye 2 wedge? B.S. Phil could stand before God and easily defend his decision.

McCarron's waiting: A failure
McCarron's laughable attempt to separate cheating from cheaters: Amusingly dumb
Some players playing the grandfathered clubs that will serve them best: Absolutely, easily, predictable
My perspective on this issue: Pristine
The flack I deserve for arrogantly defining my perspective as "pristine": Priceless

[SpartyOn1982]

[quote name='JTYP726' date='02 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1265167008' post='2223694']
[quote name='SpartyOn1982' date='02 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1265142992' post='2222710']
When I read the story of McCarron backpedaling this morning I about spit up my coffee! WTF? Seriously dude, just sit back and enjoy your 15 minutes of fame. You dug yourself a hole now you get to take responsibility for it.
[/quote]


That's funny I read a story on GolfChannel.com that stated the opposite of what you read......"McCarron won't back down and wants to bring it to the attention of the comissioner/PGA Tour" it stated.

This entire ordeal is subjective and really never should have received that much attention. Honestly I'm surprised to see Phil Mickelson exploit a loophole like this. Does he really rely on square grooves that much? I mean, to say that his magic around the greens is reliant upon square grooves seems a bit much to me, the guy is a genius with anything.
[/quote]

So McCarron saying that he did not call Phil a cheater after he said he called Phil a cheater(days earlier) is not backpedaling?
A little threatening from Phil and the guy......[b]Oh no......... this just in McCarron is BACKPEDALING! as of 11:02pm 2/2/2010

EDIT: Source is from the Golf Channel. McCarron is live
Read at http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=4882175

[/b]

[migolfke]

The more I hear McCarron discuss this the dumber I think he is. It is fine that he thinks the rule is bad or players should not play the eye2 because its not in the spirit of the game, but to call it cheating is just dumb. How do you follow the rules, and still cheat? I am sure that there is someone in here that can come up with a good answer to that. Personally, I think Phil should not have played the eye2s, but that is an entirely different discussion of whether or not he is cheating.

[OpusX20]

Finally, McCarron gets to the real heart of the matter...

[i]"My issue wasn't with Mickelson, but that Ping Eye 2s are not readily available," said McCarron. "I'm under contract to TaylorMade. I can't play [the Eye 2]. Other players who are under contract can't play that wedge. They don't have that option."

[/i]I had been wondering how much of the flack from some of these tour players were driven by the restrictions in their own contracts. I'm not surprised that this is part of their motive, but I didn't think any of them would come out and say it.

[kiddoc]

Said all along here, or in another post.

[gxDD]

[quote name='SpartyOn1982' date='02 February 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1265169773' post='2223872']
[quote name='JTYP726' date='02 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1265167008' post='2223694']
[quote name='SpartyOn1982' date='02 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1265142992' post='2222710']
When I read the story of McCarron backpedaling this morning I about spit up my coffee! WTF? Seriously dude, just sit back and enjoy your 15 minutes of fame. You dug yourself a hole now you get to take responsibility for it.
[/quote]


That's funny I read a story on GolfChannel.com that stated the opposite of what you read......"McCarron won't back down and wants to bring it to the attention of the comissioner/PGA Tour" it stated.

This entire ordeal is subjective and really never should have received that much attention. Honestly I'm surprised to see Phil Mickelson exploit a loophole like this. Does he really rely on square grooves that much? I mean, to say that his magic around the greens is reliant upon square grooves seems a bit much to me, the guy is a genius with anything.
[/quote]

So McCarron saying that he did not call Phil a cheater after he said he called Phil a cheater(days earlier) is not backpedaling?
A little threatening from Phil and the guy......[b]Oh no......... this just in McCarron is BACKPEDALING! as of 11:02pm 2/2/2010

EDIT: Source is from the Golf Channel. McCarron is live
Read at [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=4882175"]http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=4882175[/url]

[/b]
[/quote]


It's all subjective and hear say as far as I'm concerned. I could post a link as well supporting my story, but what's the point? I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this.

[3whacker]

all this conjecture and modifying this or lengthening the rough or speeding up the greens is walking past the 800lb gorilla in the room....its the golf ball, pure and simple...read Tom Weiskopf's interview on the Golf Channel, the USGA has let the golf ball get out of hand, it doesnt curve, which penalizes the shotmakers, it goes way too far which has made many venues obsolete, and then you give a pro a wedge in his hand and they can make the ball dance and stop on an airport runway...

[matthewsiv]

It boils down to this Scott McCarron is pissed because he cannot break his contract with Taylormade!

He must be the one of the few player's with a full set of Taylormade,most pro's now have a ball and bag contract.

But the money must be SO GOOD that he does not want to give himself some help by playing a Ping Eye 2 wedge and possibly WINNING a golf tournament.

But there was no reason to name names,he could of, or should have just generalized it.

But to go on The Golf Channel and make a very tongue in cheek apology to Phil is almost as big an insult as his first comment.

He then goes onto say that he does not know where he can buy Ping Eye 2 wedges!

B.......t,he has never heard of Ebay, or if he asked, Ping would not find him a couple?

Hell,I will sell him a couple.

This guy thinks that we are all stupid!

As for the long putter,that is another story.

All this guy has achieved is to screw up his own game and probably Phil's as well.

Does Phil have an agenda probably.

He is upset that the Callaway wedges did not pass inspection and this is his way around it.

Winning a golf tournament with a Ping Eye 2 wedge in the bag is worth far more than a playing contract with a manufacturer.

Winners get more money than journeymen.

It is obvious to me that Phil wants to win and will do whatever it takes to achieve it.

Scott McCarron is a could of, should have, didn't type of guy.

Who lives on a pretense of high morals because he is too lazy to bust his a** and try to win golf tournaments.

Just shut up and play golf.

[Hifade]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='02 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1265171018' post='2223925']
Finally, McCarron gets to the real heart of the matter...

[i]"My issue wasn't with Mickelson, but that Ping Eye 2s are not readily available," said McCarron. "I'm under contract to TaylorMade. I can't play [the Eye 2]. Other players who are under contract can't play that wedge. They don't have that option."

[/i]I had been wondering how much of the flack from some of these tour players were driven by the restrictions in their own contracts. I'm not surprised that this is part of their motive, but I didn't think any of them would come out and say it.


[/quote]

GREAT POINT Opus.

The way I see it, maybe an answer would be to allow every OEM to replicate the "grandfathered in" grooves already approved in the PING Eye 2 wedges in their own wedges, thereby allowing [u]every[/u] playing under [u]any[/u] contract with [u]every[/u] OEM to have the ability to use the same grooves. Just a thought and a potential solution if the PGA Tour does not want to dive into the potentially lethal legal waters of implementing a "localized" rule banning the PING Eye 2 for tournament play under the new USGA rollback. What a can of worms we have.

[bobobs]

I think we are reading a little too much as to why Scott and Phil are saying what they are saying. The culprit here is the legal system and Ping. They fought this battle a long time ago and it is going to bite them back. If this rule stays, then Ping gets their 1990's wedges flogged over the web, of which Ping gets nothing. The consumer won't have any interest in Pings current wedges and why should they. I think the Tour should impose a new rule as of today and make all players use a persimmon driver. As for changing the setup of a golf course and potentially ruining mother nature, why??

[phil75070]

[quote name='ryrob' date='02 February 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1265166288' post='2223648']

And about these wedges having been in play for years - exactly! Why has no one complained about pros using pre-1990 Ping Eye 2 wedges before now? They have been "grandfathered" into the rules for 20 years. I understand the change away from square grooves is new, but these wedges have been technically non-conforming since the lawsuit was settled. Therefore they have been "violating the spirit of the game" (as some people claim) all along.
[/quote]

The reason it is an issue now is because the performance of the Ping irons is now supposedly [i]substantially [/i]increased over wedges conforming to the new groove rule, although Callaway has shown that to be inaccurate. Prior to this year, the difference in spin was probably not judged to very significant so nobody made a big deal about it.

This exception for the Eye2s was part of the announcement back in August '08. Why wasn't this issue brought up anytime in the last 18 months? Why wasn't it brought up when Daly and Wilson used them? If Phil had not used it last week would everyone have remained silent about it? If Phil had not used it last week, would Paddy and Freddy be getting the same criticism this week with their plans to use them?

Also, although long putters have never been not approved, they are only allowed through specific exception:

"The overall length of the club must be at least 18 inches
(0.457 m) and, [u]except for putters[/u], must not exceed 48 inches (1.219 m)"

[gvogel]

[quote name='3whacker' date='03 February 2010 - 03:59 AM' timestamp='1265187584' post='2224263']
all this conjecture and modifying this or lengthening the rough or speeding up the greens is walking past the 800lb gorilla in the room....its the golf ball, pure and simple...read Tom Weiskopf's interview on the Golf Channel, the USGA has let the golf ball get out of hand, it doesnt curve, which penalizes the shotmakers, it goes way too far which has made many venues obsolete, and then you give a pro a wedge in his hand and they can make the ball dance and stop on an airport runway...
[/quote]

Bingo, bingo and bingo!

[bogeyk]

McCarron uses PING irons and Cleveland wedges. So unless there's language that limits the amount of another company's clubs, I have to say that quote is suspect.

[MizzyMan]

To those supporting Mickelson: is it legal to use that wedge? yeah....is it bush league? heck yeah.

Think about when Seve (for those of you old enough to remember when Seve was one of the best players around) would cough, rattle his change around in his pocket , etc during Ryder Cups when Americans were playing shots or putting. Illegal? Not really, only violates the "spirit of the game" and consistent behavior can lead to reduced playing privileges. But really, really bush league? Yep.

Taking advantage of a legal ruling that was made out of fear of a lawsuit to try to get an advantage on other players, most of whom wouldn't use it out of self-respect is as bush as jingling coins in your pocket and he deserves whatever flak he gets/is gonna get. Keep arguing that it's legal, Phil, and keep bringing attention to the subject of the ridiculous court ruling and your cheap attempt to get around the rules.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Hifade' date='03 February 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1265205308' post='2224442']
[quote name='OpusX20' date='02 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1265171018' post='2223925']
Finally, McCarron gets to the real heart of the matter...

[i]"My issue wasn't with Mickelson, but that Ping Eye 2s are not readily available," said McCarron. "I'm under contract to TaylorMade. I can't play [the Eye 2]. Other players who are under contract can't play that wedge. They don't have that option."

[/i]I had been wondering how much of the flack from some of these tour players were driven by the restrictions in their own contracts. I'm not surprised that this is part of their motive, but I didn't think any of them would come out and say it.


[/quote]

GREAT POINT Opus.

The way I see it, maybe an answer would be to allow every OEM to replicate the "grandfathered in" grooves already approved in the PING Eye 2 wedges in their own wedges, thereby allowing [u]every[/u] playing under [u]any[/u] contract with [u]every[/u] OEM to have the ability to use the same grooves. Just a thought and a potential solution if the PGA Tour does not want to dive into the potentially lethal legal waters of implementing a "localized" rule banning the PING Eye 2 for tournament play under the new USGA rollback. What a can of worms we have.



[/quote]

That would do it, as would the localized rule.

The easiest thing, though, would be for the guys on tour to have a gentleman's agreement not to play the clubs until it is sorted out since
it seems like some can play it and some can't due to their contracts.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='bogeyk' date='03 February 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1265208940' post='2224523']
McCarron uses PING irons and Cleveland wedges. So unless there's language that limits the amount of another company's clubs, I have to say that quote is suspect.
[/quote]

Here's where the quote came from...

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2010/02/mccarron-apologizes-to-mickelson-finchem-mum.html"]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2010/02/mccarron-apologizes-to-mickelson-finchem-mum.html[/url]

[Smack Daddy]

[quote name='MizzyMan' date='03 February 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1265211091' post='2224608']
To those supporting Mickelson: is it legal to use that wedge? yeah....is it bush league? heck yeah.

[/quote]

It is not then also bush league for a pro to use a long putter?

The only reason guys using long putters doesn't really bother me is that usually their problem is really with speed and reading greens. They might putt better with the long putter but no putter overcomes lack of skills.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Smack Daddy' date='03 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1265213056' post='2224659']
[quote name='MizzyMan' date='03 February 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1265211091' post='2224608']
To those supporting Mickelson: is it legal to use that wedge? yeah....is it bush league? heck yeah.

[/quote]

It is not then also bush league for a pro to use a long putter?

The only reason guys using long putters doesn't really bother me is that usually their problem is really with speed and reading greens. They might putt better with the long putter but no putter overcomes lack of skills.
[/quote]

I might be bush league but it is available for anyone to use.

Sounds like only some players can use the Ping due to contracts. So to me, it is unfair that some can use it and some can not.

[howdyho]

[quote]It is not then also bush league for a pro to use a long putter?[/quote]

Are all long putters banned from use during play and McCarron is only playing with one due to a loophole brought about by a lawsuit?

You're comparing apples to oranges, people.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='03 February 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1265213201' post='2224663']

Sounds like only some players can use the Ping due to contracts. So to me, it is unfair that some can use it and some can not.
[/quote]


I'm not sure it's unfair. If a player independently signed a contract with a manufacturer, voluntarily giving up his rights to play a Ping wedge, it's more of a bad business deal for him than an unfairness bestowed upon him by someone else. If Callaway, for instance, came up with some new brilliant but conforming club, he couldn't use that either -- he took a chance by taking money from another club maker.

Seems like some who pretend to worry about the spirit of the game are instead worrying about the box they put themselves in as they attempted to make endorsement money. Instead of asking Ping to give up its rights, or the USGA to come up with some magic, maybe these players should sheepishly ask the holders of their club contracts to give them a break when it comes to wedges.

[JGL]

[quote name='TOUCH' date='02 February 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1265134672' post='2222343']
He uses and has been for a long time the long putter.
That is legal, but thought of as cheating for a % of us golfer's that believe that all putting should be done the conventional way.
All of the pro's that think Phil was cheating are bunk.
Finchem will get this cleared up real fast I would imagine.
Loophole yes, cheating no.

Long putters are not for REAL golfer's IMO
[/quote]


I agree fully 100% with banning the long putter, come on USGA grow some BALLS

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='03 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1265213905' post='2224691']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='03 February 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1265213201' post='2224663']
Sounds like only some players can use the Ping due to contracts. So to me, it is unfair that some can use it and some can not.
[/quote]


I'm not sure it's unfair. If a player independently signed a contract with a manufacturer, voluntarily giving up his rights to play a Ping wedge, it's more of a bad business deal for him than an unfairness bestowed upon him by someone else. If Callaway, for instance, came up with some new brilliant but conforming club, he couldn't use that either -- he took a chance by taking money from another club maker.

Seems like some who pretend to worry about the spirit of the game are instead worrying about the box they put themselves in as they attempted to make endorsement money. Instead of asking Ping to give up its rights, or the USGA to come up with some magic, maybe these players should sheepishly ask the holders of their club contracts to give them a break when it comes to wedges.
[/quote]

I can see where you are coming from and Phil could not have said it any better. The big name guys who have the leverage to negotiate
better deals on clubs they can use...win. And the little guy...loses. It is true, them is the breaks and such is the real world.

I wonder if every player on tour will dump their sponsor so they can play the Ping wedge.

Then Ping will be the only OEM.



Or maybe common sense, the gentlemanly nature of the game, and good sportsmanship should prevail amongst peers and these guys, starting with
Phil, should stop using the clubs until everyone can use them.

[Sawgrass]

I can see where you are coming from and Phil could not have said it any better. The big name guys who have the leverage to negotiate

better deals on clubs they can use...win. And the little guy...loses. It is true, them is the breaks and such is the real world.

 

I wonder if every player on tour will dump their sponsor so they can play the Ping wedge.

 

Then Ping will be the only OEM.

 

 

Or maybe common sense, the gentlemanly nature of the game, and good sportsmanship should prevail amongst peers and these guys, starting with

Phil, should stop using the clubs until everyone can use them.

 

It is truly remarkable how contract law has taken over this issue. First a contractual agreement beteen Ping and the USGA. Then a contract between Ping and the PGA Tour. Now we begin to see how contracts between individual players and their sponsors interfere with "justice."

 

To me, the USGA really ruined things when they tried to outlaw the Eye 2 back in 1990 without appropriate process. Now that that's happened, I just wish they'd go back to 2009 standards. Life wasn't so bad two months ago IMO.

[bogeyk]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='03 February 2010 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1265211571' post='2224624']
[quote name='bogeyk' date='03 February 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1265208940' post='2224523']
McCarron uses PING irons and Cleveland wedges. So unless there's language that limits the amount of another company's clubs, I have to say that quote is suspect.
[/quote]

Here's where the quote came from...

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2010/02/mccarron-apologizes-to-mickelson-finchem-mum.html"]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2010/02/mccarron-apologizes-to-mickelson-finchem-mum.html[/url]
[/quote]


I stand corrected. I guess I will call his quote disingenuous considering he doesn't use TM wedges.