Scott McCarron

[OpusX20]

[quote name='bogeyk' date='03 February 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1265216840' post='2224808']
I stand corrected. I guess I will call his quote disingenuous considering he doesn't use TM wedges.
[/quote]

I also found it interesting/amusing that TM doesn't have McCarron listed on their website with the other "Tour Staff Professionals".

[url="http://www.taylormadegolf.com/#404"]http://www.taylormadegolf.com/#404[/url]

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='MizzyMan' date='03 February 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1265211091' post='2224608']
To those supporting Mickelson: is it legal to use that wedge? yeah....is it bush league? heck yeah.

Think about when Seve (for those of you old enough to remember when Seve was one of the best players around) would cough, rattle his change around in his pocket , etc during Ryder Cups when Americans were playing shots or putting. Illegal? Not really, only violates the "spirit of the game" and consistent behavior can lead to reduced playing privileges. But really, really bush league? Yep.

Taking advantage of a legal ruling that was made out of fear of a lawsuit to try to get an advantage on other players, most of whom wouldn't use it out of self-respect is as bush as jingling coins in your pocket and he deserves whatever flak he gets/is gonna get. Keep arguing that it's legal, Phil, and keep bringing attention to the subject of the ridiculous court ruling and your cheap attempt to get around the rules.
[/quote]
There was a rule in the USGA rule book that stated it was an approved part of the game to jingle change in your pocket?

If players won't use what is [i]expressly[/i] allowed by the rules, then they are idiots. The spin issue has been around for a while now - I didn't see any of them trading in their Spin Milled wedges for a less spinny model.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='03 February 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1265211220' post='2224613']
[quote name='Hifade' date='03 February 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1265205308' post='2224442']
[quote name='OpusX20' date='02 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1265171018' post='2223925']
Finally, McCarron gets to the real heart of the matter...

[i]"My issue wasn't with Mickelson, but that Ping Eye 2s are not readily available," said McCarron. "I'm under contract to TaylorMade. I can't play [the Eye 2]. Other players who are under contract can't play that wedge. They don't have that option."

[/i]I had been wondering how much of the flack from some of these tour players were driven by the restrictions in their own contracts. I'm not surprised that this is part of their motive, but I didn't think any of them would come out and say it.


[/quote]

GREAT POINT Opus.

The way I see it, maybe an answer would be to allow every OEM to replicate the "grandfathered in" grooves already approved in the PING Eye 2 wedges in their own wedges, thereby allowing [u]every[/u] playing under [u]any[/u] contract with [u]every[/u] OEM to have the ability to use the same grooves. Just a thought and a potential solution if the PGA Tour does not want to dive into the potentially lethal legal waters of implementing a "localized" rule banning the PING Eye 2 for tournament play under the new USGA rollback. What a can of worms we have.



[/quote]

That would do it, as would the localized rule.

The easiest thing, though, would be for the guys on tour to have a gentleman's agreement not to play the clubs until it is sorted out since
it seems like some can play it and some can't due to their contracts.
[/quote]

So, will Cleveland have to allow every manufacturer to produce their Zip-Grooves for those who are contractually bound to another company? Can you see Titleist giving up their patent to Spin Milled technology Adams or TaylorMade?

Whatever else is going on here, it is NOT the USGA's job to save players from their own bad contracts. Contracts with manufacturers has nothing to do with the rules of golf.

[touch]

[quote name='howdyho' date='02 February 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1265163823' post='2223565']
Bad analogy. Only way it would be similar is if long putters were banned and the specific putter he used was exempted via a loophole and he continued to use it.

Just face it...Phil brought all this on himself. He's arrogant enough to think that his supposed act of defiance to the USGA on this new grooves rule would not bear him any criticism. His little eff you to the USGA has backfired. And deservedly so for this bush league tactic.
[/quote]

Bush league is not at all right. You watch how many more TOUR player's put the PING's in the bag. The long time law suit with Karsten Co. is too fresh to be changed now. They do not want another law suit. Phil is the boss of the wedges, and they are legal. Again watch how many more player's start bagging them. I started this post and love the comments. Keep you idea's coming.
On Phil's behalf you know how hard it is (and practice required) to switch from Tradional shape wedges to those Ping Eye 2's are. The Pings are a whole different animal in terms of sole grinds, and looks, and playability. The CLASS ACT LEFTY is a trend setter, not a loophole finding cheater. Playing the long putter is legal, but still to me should have been banned a long time ago. Phil wins......McCarron whines!

[Langlands]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='03 February 2010 - 04:23 AM' timestamp='1265171018' post='2223925']
Finally, McCarron gets to the real heart of the matter...

[i]"My issue wasn't with Mickelson, but that Ping Eye 2s are not readily available," said McCarron. "I'm under contract to TaylorMade. I can't play [the Eye 2]. Other players who are under contract can't play that wedge. They don't have that option."

[/i]I had been wondering how much of the flack from some of these tour players were driven by the restrictions in their own contracts. I'm not surprised that this is part of their motive, but I didn't think any of them would come out and say it.
[/quote]

McCarron can't bag the Eye2? Last time I looked he was playing Ping i3s????? What a load of pish.

[Bubb]

I think what is getting lost in this is how this incident demonstrates that the new groove rule is having it's intended effect. If pros like Phil and Padraig are willing to use a 20-yr-old club made by a competitor of the company that endorses them, the old grooves must really put significantly more spin on the ball.

The new groove rule was intended to put more of a premium back on accuracy and once this loophole is rectified, I look forward to seeing how these new grooves affect tournaments. It looks like the USGA deserves at least some credit.

[drgolfaholic]

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/-6775/?ref=26000

Calling out a fellow player while blowing whistle to serve personal agenda is how I see it. Bottom line is if you take money from a club maker to use their clubs, don't whine that you can't get access to these Ping Eye2s.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='drgolfaholic' date='03 February 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1265220072' post='2224923']
[url="http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/-6775/?ref=26000"]http://www.thegolfch...6775/?ref=26000[/url]

Calling out a fellow player while blowing whistle to serve personal agenda is how I see it. Bottom line is if you take money from a club maker to use their clubs, don't whine that you can't get access to these Ping Eye2s.
[/quote]

I love McCarron talking about how he wouldn't know where to find a Ping Eye 2 wedge and they are not readily available. Send me a PM Scott. If you want to put one in play, I will overnight my gamer to you.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='03 February 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1265221725' post='2224978']
[quote name='drgolfaholic' date='03 February 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1265220072' post='2224923']
[url="http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/-6775/?ref=26000"]http://www.thegolfch...6775/?ref=26000[/url]

Calling out a fellow player while blowing whistle to serve personal agenda is how I see it. Bottom line is if you take money from a club maker to use their clubs, don't whine that you can't get access to these Ping Eye2s.
[/quote]

I love McCarron talking about how he wouldn't know where to find a Ping Eye 2 wedge and they are not readily available. Send me a PM Scott. If you want to put one in play, I will overnight my gamer to you.
[/quote]

The more I think about it, the more ugly McCarron's behavior seems.

Calling Phil out about Ping wedges without first disclosing the fact that McCarron was in a personal contract bind over the same club is not exactly what you'd expect from a guy who claims to be interested in the spirit of things on everyone's behalf.

And yeah, very disingenuous to now imply that it's more the club's availablity than it is his contract that's causing the problem. Maybe his new friend Phil will lend him one.

[Smack Daddy]

[quote name='howdyho' date='03 February 2010 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1265213754' post='2224681']

Are all long putters banned from use during play and McCarron is only playing with one due to a loophole brought about by a lawsuit?

You're comparing apples to oranges, people.
[/quote]

I don't agree. Both are legal and many feel that both are "not in the spirit of the game". In that sense, the same argument applies to both.

Personally, I don't buy the "spirit of the game" concept but it just seems to me that someone using a long putter is on shaky ground when they call someone else out.

I just hope McCarron gets a new job....you know, one that has a full work week.

[Sid Vicious]

[quote name='3whacker' date='03 February 2010 - 02:59 AM' timestamp='1265187584' post='2224263']
all this conjecture and modifying this or lengthening the rough or speeding up the greens is walking past the 800lb gorilla in the room....its the golf ball, pure and simple...read Tom Weiskopf's interview on the Golf Channel, the USGA has let the golf ball get out of hand, it doesnt curve, which penalizes the shotmakers, it goes way too far which has made many venues obsolete, and then you give a pro a wedge in his hand and they can make the ball dance and stop on an airport runway...
[/quote]

I'll grant you that maybe, just maybe the USGA should re-visit its regulations on balls, but probably only to regulate the number of dimples and the patterns they can use. Dimple patterns are the reason you can't spin the ball left or right.

Ask any old-timer about the Titleist K2 ball and they'll tell you that shot making died when we went away from the simple polar pattern. After that everything revolved around straighter, straighter, straighter and higher, higher, higher.

These kids are bigger and stronger and have the benefit of better equipment, training, diet, and golf-specific physical training that we never even dreamed of having in the 60s and 70s. Because of all that, they are going to overpower the ball, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I wish I had known these things when I was 15. What does bother me is when I try to work [b]around[/b] obstacles, the ball won't let me, but then I watch ultra-high ss players just launch the same ball right over everything, and I realize that the ball is made for that style of play and no other.

Maybe I'm being old-fashioned, but that is not how I was taught to play the game.

But there has been a distance standard on balls since the 1970's, at least, so from that perspective, the ball hasn't changed since the days of the persimmon wood. The distance standard is fine, but maybe the USGA should look into dimple patterns as another tool in controlling spin, by not allowing patterns that make it easier to hit the ball high and straight.

That being said, I doubt they can do much about it, since the minute you start legislating limits like that, the engineers will go right to work to figure out ways to get around the rules without actually breaking them. I think that's what probably happened with the Callaway wedges that the USGA bounced, which prompted Phil to bag the Pings, which got McCarron in a huff, which then got McCarron excoriated by the press and public, which then brought on this thread, more or less.

Besides, innovation is one of the great traditions in the game. Without it we have no steel shafts, no sand wedge, no graphite, no metal woods, etc., etc. All of those things started out as radical ideas that everyone thought would ruin the game, but now no one would think of playing without them. You should have seen some of the stuff they came up with that didn't work.

As an aside, I won't include the hybrid as an innovation. Just look up old cleeks and you'll see that the hybrid has been around a lot longer than any of us. And, does anyone remember the Browning 440? Otherwise know as the banana on a stick. Apparently the 440 was 25 years ahead of its time. Who knew?

I don't have a problem with people playing bomb and gouge. Bomb and gouge has been around since shepherds whacked stones around a field. I just think that making the courses longer and longer and over-watering them just plays into their hands. If we tighten and firm up the courses, not only will we not have to worry about how many thousands of rpms the wedges generate, but the B&G guys will have to learn to keep the ball in play, which is at the heart of the way the game is played. If you can't manipulate the ball to make it go where you want it to, you aren't really playing golf.

[bigred90gt]

I find it a bit odd that McCarron, in his latest interview, says that he doesnt know where to find the wedges. In the original interview that he called Phil a cheater, he said something to the effect of "just because some people go on ebay and find these wedges".

[Sid Vicious]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='03 February 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1265242800' post='2225732']
I find it a bit odd that McCarron, in his latest interview, says that he doesnt know where to find the wedges. In the original interview that he called Phil a cheater, he said something to the effect of "just because some people go on ebay and find these wedges".
[/quote]

He might start with his garage. I'll bet a dollar to a donut he's not being entirely truthful about his ability to locate an EYE2. He's a Tour pro. He likely has hundreds, if not thousands of different clubs stashed away all over. Every pro I ever met was a club ho, especially if they could get them for free.

[Awsi Dooger]

Now Phil says he's not playing the Ping wedge this week. Jeez, I wonder what variable intervened?

Thank you Scott McCarron. I still can't believe posters and media members tried to pretend McCarron was on the defensive. Phil wobbled all over the place in that presser today, including a juvenile assertion that he reserves the right to play the club in the future. No, this issue hasn't gotten into his head.

Definitely the correct move by Phil. Only problem is now I can't bet against him this week. Hard to tell if he'll relax and surge, or flatten out and need some time to mentally regroup.

[cplof]

1. Are the Ping Eye 2 irons grandfathered in also, or just the wedges? I know that the grooves matter more in wedges, but some players may prefer the extra spin in the irons if they are legal. Just curious


2. In my opinion, Phil did not just use the Eye 2 just to piss off the USGA and make a point. Sure he may have made a point, pissed off the USGA, and gotten exactly what he wanted because you can bet the USGA, the PGA tour, and PIng are going to town to figure this quandary out, but from my understanding he was also using the Ping Eye 2 as an advantage. He has been a 64* wedge player for a few years now, but it is almost impossible to effectively play a 64* the new grooves, because the ball rides up the face. So he bought a Ping Eye 2 60* and bent it to 64* so he could effectively play an X wedge. It will be interesting to see if he plays a 64* or not now that he took the Ping Eye 2 out of his bag.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='cplof' date='03 February 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1265243641' post='2225765']
1. Are the Ping Eye 2 irons grandfathered in also, or just the wedges? I know that the grooves matter more in wedges, but some players may prefer the extra spin in the irons if they are legal. Just curious[/quote]

The irons are legal as well.

[NGstaff]

i personally think that they just need to either outlaw the wedges completely except for v-grooves or just allow the other grooves and be done with it

[cardia10]

I didn't know the tour forced the players to sign endorsement contracts. McCarron is like a 4 year old who can't keep his story straight. He is also one the kids who now goes home crying because the big kids won't let him play with their toys or win their games!

[Sid Vicious]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' date='03 February 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1265243468' post='2225760']
Now Phil says he's not playing the Ping wedge this week. Jeez, I wonder what variable intervened?

Thank you Scott McCarron. I still can't believe posters and media members tried to pretend McCarron was on the defensive. Phil wobbled all over the place in that presser today, including a juvenile assertion that he reserves the right to play the club in the future. No, this issue hasn't gotten into his head.

Definitely the correct move by Phil. Only problem is now I can't bet against him this week. Hard to tell if he'll relax and surge, or flatten out and need some time to mentally regroup.
[/quote]

I didn't see the presser, but from what I understand Phil stated that McC had apologized and that they had agreed that the rule was a mess, which is what Phil has been saying all along.

Also, why is it juvenile to assert your rights? The club is legal. Phil knows it McCarron knows it, the Tour and the USGA and Ping know it, we all know it, etc. Phil did nothing more than say that if the governing parties weren't going to do their jobs then he was going to do whatever was best for him, within the rules of course.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='nikegolfchad' date='03 February 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1265247868' post='2225905']
i personally think that they just need to either outlaw the wedges completely except for v-grooves or just allow the other grooves and be done with it
[/quote]

Why would they do that, since the new groove rule does not require V grooves?

[pingmanrmiller]

Mr McCarron needs to worry about finding a game. Not what clubs guys are using.

[Sid Vicious]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='03 February 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1265248739' post='2225937']
[quote name='nikegolfchad' date='03 February 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1265247868' post='2225905']
i personally think that they just need to either outlaw the wedges completely except for v-grooves or just allow the other grooves and be done with it
[/quote]

Why would they do that, since the new groove rule does not require V grooves?
[/quote]

As far as I know, you still cant make cast clubs with v-grooves either, so if you do that, you effectively outlaw all cast clubs. I think about 9 bajillion golfers worldwide would be storming the castle gates with torches and pitchforks if you did that.

[texcrom]

My take in two points...

[list=1]
[*]McCarron is a pompous a** for implying that Mickelson is a cheater (lets not get into semantics regarding this...he said Phil cheated, which in effect calls Phil a cheater), and is just the latest perfect example of a spoiled tour pro who thinks because people cater to his needs that his opinions are both important and correct.
[*]Point or no point to be made regarding the new rules, Mickelson is in a position to be the new dominant player on the PGA Tour (and perhaps in the world) in the eyes of golf fans, as a result of the Tiger Escapades. He has now wasted the opportunity as a result of his efforts to make a so called "statement" regarding the rule change. Imagine the positive press had the point regarding the Eye2 wedges been made about some other players, and Mickelson had won the tournament playing "legal" wedges. I believe he lost his focus and his chance to win as a result of the distractions, and thus lost the opportunity to become the pre-eminent player in the game in the eyes of the public.
[/list]

I'm also guessing that McCarron's efforts to become a Board Member generated his highly visable comments. My guess is that this is a last desperate effort on his part to remain on tour, assuming that such position / status would be well received by tournament officials when looking for sponsors exemptions down the road.

Just my opinion.

[Sid Vicious]

Does McCarron get a special exemption if he's a member of the Tour Policy Board? I've never really thought about that aspect before.

[Noonan]

[quote name='phil75070' date='03 February 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1265207064' post='2224478']
[quote name='ryrob' date='02 February 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1265166288' post='2223648']

Also, although long putters have never been not approved, they are only allowed through specific exception:

"The overall length of the club must be at least 18 inches
(0.457 m) and, [u]except for putters[/u], must not exceed 48 inches (1.219 m)"
[/quote]

Your statement is 100% NOT correct.

They have always been allowed, and that exception you cited has nothing to do with the long putter. That rule is specifically for driver length. In fact by making the statement, the USGA gives even further credence to the notion that long putters are fine and have always been so. Like it or not.

[TaylorGreen]

But Scotty and Rocco are "concerned with the integrity of the game". We're not talking rules...what is legit and what isn't. They (I know there are others but these two buffoons are the most vocal) are "worried" about the "spirit of the rules". The long putter is legal. So is the Ping Eye 2 wedge. "Scotty Boy" and "Rocco the Lip" should take a long look in the mirror. The long putter/belly putter surely isn't in keeping with the INTEGRITY or SPIRIT of the game. Yet, thy have no problem sticking one of those in their bag since they don't have the talent or ability to use the short stick. 'Nuff said.

The USGA has gotten my last $25 (been a member for the past 16 years). They fudged this one up really good. The suits at the USGA stood back and watched the OEM's with their technological advances and now we're watching golf played on 7700+ yard courses. Their solution? A half-a@@ed rules change on grooves that they have conveyed to the OEM's and the general golfing public in a embarrassingly horrid manner. The worst part of it? It has only caused confusion and inconvenience to everyone affected. You can't "roll back" equipment. Not allowing the OEM's to continue making "newer" and "more improved" sticks for ALL golfers will ultimately destroy the game. There's too much money at stake (not to mention jobs) for the golf marketplace. This is already a difficult enough game for 99% of the people who play this incredibly wonderful game. USGA AND PGA!!! It's time for the ELITE players to continue playing updated equipment on courses that are narrower (not longer). Higher rough, firmer greens, bunkers that are truly hazards (and not something they are aiming for when not able to hit the green), softer fairways, etc. Give the PROS weapons they desire and make the course setups (for the PROS) more difficult than what they have been since modern agronomy and equipment turned every course into a Muirfield Village or Augusta National!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='TaylorGreen ' date='03 February 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1265253687' post='2226146']
You can't "roll back" equipment. Not allowing the OEM's to continue making "newer" and "more improved" sticks for ALL golfers will ultimately destroy the game. There's too much money at stake (not to mention jobs) for the golf marketplace. [/quote]

I agree. Phil's actions and Paddy's recent comments make it clear to anyone who is paying attention that 2009-legal clubs are superior to 2010-legal clubs. The overwhelming number of clubs are purchased by amateurs, and since most amateurs can use their 2009 or earlier irons until at least 2024, I can't imagine many people buying new ones. Why pay more money for an iron that doesn't work as well as your old one?

Not only will this take a good deal of fun away from seaching for that magic stick or buying something shiny and new, but it has the potential to hit the club manufacturers and their employees very hard.

I wonder what percentage of serious amateurs want this rule change.
I wonder if the USGA cares what serious amateurs want.

Sure, you can hold the philosophical opinion that the game should be this or the game should be that, but deliberately legislating against progress is a very dangerous thing to do.

I think it's a terrible rule, and I think that politically it's too late for the USGA or R&A to repeal it, even if they come to realize that they should.

[fats]

Commish Tim Finchem should have been on this long before the season started. Scott just said outloud what each and every player wanted to say including Phil. I see Phils point of view also as the USGA seemed confused about at least two companies and they drug it out through December and Phil's Callaway grooves were exactly legal but were turned down but a questionable opinion. Had Finchem applied some pressure on the USGA this groove thing would have been resolved before September 2009!

AFAIC this is why touring pros will mumble and beyach about the USGA. We all love their tournament though...incredible event.

[Clark]

You get faster results to media bomb someone. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission (excluding tiger) and you think someone in a governing body in golf would have more class than that. (Stay classy San Diego )

[kekoa]

Yah, Scotty is really hurting himself by being so outspoken. I understand he has also been very critical of AK for playing in the Abu Dhabi tourney instead of the Hope.