Swingweight and grips

[scooterguitar]

Perhaps I'm overthinking this too much, but ordered a set of AP2 710's, almost went with D3 sw opposed to stock s2, but hit them great last fall when I tried them and then again this past week when deciding what to order so I opted for std. d2 throughout.

I never though about grips...I usally 2-3 wrap, but this time ordered the multi compund midsize, just looked and obviously the weight on them is more.

SHould I have them adjust my order and go for the D3 or likely be alright with the D2?

FWIW, I've played clubs with sw all over the place, down to D0...for me it usally comes down to the physical weight of the club itself, but on these as I stated, was/am hitting them so good for my typical swing I just don't wanna mess it up!

Thanks for any thoughts.

[eppey]

I would say you are overthinking it. The cynic in me says that the chances of all eight irons coming out of the box with the same swingweight is remarkably low anyway. So if you are going to get them all the same you are going to have to make the adjustments yourself. If that is the case then you will be able to choose your SW whether it be D2 or D3.

[dokex]

The weight of the grip is INCONSEQUENTIAL when it comes to the final s.w. Because the grip is on the inside of the scale's fulcrum, it will NOT affect the feel of the headweight, which is what SW is all about. In fact, the proper way to assess the final SW is to put the club UNGRIPPED on the SW scale, and record the result. Next, subtract 10 points from the reading. For example, if the ungripped reading is E2, then the proper reading when gripped is D2. After this, you can install a grip of any weight and not alter the headweight feel, or swingweight.

[scooterguitar]

Ok, thank you for helping me worry less:>)
But, no issue to change my order yet...just to be safe or could it mess up "my happy place" with these sticks>?

[bazinky]

[quote name='dokex' date='13 March 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1268532567' post='2314263']
The weight of the grip is INCONSEQUENTIAL when it comes to the final s.w. Because the grip is on the inside of the scale's fulcrum, it will NOT affect the feel of the headweight, which is what SW is all about. In fact, the proper way to assess the final SW is to put the club UNGRIPPED on the SW scale, and record the result. Next, subtract 10 points from the reading. For example, if the ungripped reading is E2, then the proper reading when gripped is D2. After this, you can install a grip of any weight and not alter the headweight feel, or swingweight.
[/quote]

Good post! It makes sense, because otherwise a club would feel different depending on whether or not your wearing a glove, right? I don't know diddly about clubmaking, mind you.

I can say that when I regripped this year I went from a 46.5 gram grip to a 59 gram grip with no negative effects. I switched from undersize tour velvets to the new Lamkin 3gens(as despite having small hands, I've found that I prefer a slightly oversize grip).

[parpar41]

[quote name='dokex' date='13 March 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1268532567' post='2314263']
The weight of the grip is INCONSEQUENTIAL when it comes to the final s.w. Because the grip is on the inside of the scale's fulcrum, it will NOT affect the feel of the headweight, which is what SW is all about. In fact, the proper way to assess the final SW is to put the club UNGRIPPED on the SW scale, and record the result. Next, subtract 10 points from the reading. For example, if the ungripped reading is E2, then the proper reading when gripped is D2. After this, you can install a grip of any weight and not alter the headweight feel, or swingweight.
[/quote]

Agree: grip weight is largely inconsequential to swingweight.

Having said that, there is a related thread here on GolfWrx that explores the issue quite comprehensively; the thread started with the argument that those new Winn grips which weigh 25 g instead of the more customary 50 g would effectively increase the swing weight of a driver by a couple of points. One of the more interesting arguments suggested, if that were true, then wearing a large heavy wrist watch would also alter swingweight.

[minhjn]

so what you guys are saying is that the grip affects the swingweight READING, but not the actual swingweight of the club?

[djbraun]

I personally believe it is more important for your clubs to be consistently weighted through the set without worrying about the swing weight reading from the scale. I re-shafted my MP-60's using a 50g grip for measuring the swing weight. Then put mids on which "reduced" the swing weight by a couple of points. Even made sure all the grips weighed the same. They ranged from 59g to 63g from the bunch I had. I would expect that would also affect the readings. Point is that they feel fine to me even though they are light according to the scale.

[Baddeley]

I play my mizunos at c6 swingweight because I use 80 gram jumbo grips and I still hit them amazing, They feel the same as a d2 swing weight imo.

[Howard_Jones]

Hello Guys!

Iv almost had a brain collapse when i tried to find out why and how an SW scale works. To make it short, its not any good for the purpose unless you take a few things in to the math.

SW is ment to be a nr who express the feeling of weight, but it seems that mr Adams took a short cut we should know about before we put anything on the scale.
Many of us has been using the SW scale with our head in "another room". Simply reading of the SW scale tells us, that a lighter grip ads SW, and a heavy grip means loosing SW, but is that right? No its not, Its all wrong.

Mr Adams seems to work on a club with at grip of 50 grams, and i guess there was not to many options at the time, so the grip weight seems to be a fix parameter like the fulcrum is placed at 14".

If we take a short trip into the Tennis world, we will meet the same technology (SW), but in a way that makes sense. The fulcrum is placed on the grip where your left and right hand meets. On the Golf SW, the fulcrum is placed at 14", witch means the hole grip is out on one end of the fulcrum. The correct place would have been at aprox 5 ". The same spot shafts are clamped for CPM readings.

The actual axes witch the club is rotating on is at aprox 5 ", or in the middle of your grip. The grip itself is sligtly heavyer in the but end, but the grip is almost in balance at 5".
Adding or reducing grip weight means, changing weight in balance on the "real" fulcrum, and it does NOT make any difference in feeling or actual SW.

When i use my SW, il do it this way. Like mr. Adams the grip should stay on if is a 50 gram grip. Otherwise remove it, and put a weight of 50 gram 5" from the but end. Now you can use your scale.

What grips you are putting on afterwords does not influence the SW feeling, only gross weight, since its al added/removed from the "real fulcrum".

Kill me if i'm wrong. Iv done a lot of tasks to come up with this, and iv been a "brain dead" user of the scale myself, thinking i could change SW by grip weight, but that's impossible. You can only fool the SW scale and yourself that way.

Im NOT sure about this, but its the best i can do, and the only way i can make any sence of using this odd tool !

[Baddeley]

Makes good sense to me. In a way extra grip weight could even increase how heavy a club feels since there is extra weight being pulled straight down when you are addressing the ball.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Howard Jones' date='15 March 2010 - 04:37 AM' timestamp='1268642263' post='2316607']
Hello Guys!

Iv almost had a brain collapse when i tried to find out why and how an SW scale works. To make it short, its not any good for the purpose unless you take a few things in to the math.

SW is ment to be a nr who express the feeling of weight, but it seems that mr Adams took a short cut we should know about before we put anything on the scale.
Many of us has been using the SW scale with our head in "another room". Simply reading of the SW scale tells us, that a lighter grip ads SW, and a heavy grip means loosing SW, but is that right? No its not, Its all wrong.

Mr Adams seems to work on a club with at grip of 50 grams, and i guess there was not to many options at the time, so the grip weight seems to be a fix parameter like the fulcrum is placed at 14".

If we take a short trip into the Tennis world, we will meet the same technology (SW), but in a way that makes sense. The fulcrum is placed on the grip where your left and right hand meets. On the Golf SW, the fulcrum is placed at 14", witch means the hole grip is out on one end of the fulcrum. The correct place would have been at aprox 5 ". The same spot shafts are clamped for CPM readings.

The actual axes witch the club is rotating on is at aprox 5 ", or in the middle of your grip. The grip itself is sligtly heavyer in the but end, but the grip is almost in balance at 5".
Adding or reducing grip weight means, changing weight in balance on the "real" fulcrum, and it does NOT make any difference in feeling or actual SW.

When i use my SW, il do it this way. Like mr. Adams the grip should stay on if is a 50 gram grip. Otherwise remove it, and put a weight of 50 gram 5" from the but end. Now you can use your scale.

What grips you are putting on afterwords does not influence the SW feeling, only gross weight, since its al added/removed from the "real fulcrum".

Kill me if i'm wrong. Iv done a lot of tasks to come up with this, and iv been a "brain dead" user of the scale myself, thinking i could change SW by grip weight, but that's impossible. You can only fool the SW scale and yourself that way.

Im NOT sure about this, but its the best i can do, and the only way i can make any sence of using this odd tool !
[/quote]

I SW my clubs with the grip off (at E2). It is the simplest thing to do in my mind.

Tennis has a somewhat different problem to deal with. You only play with one racket that doesn't vary a huge amount in either length or composition (between rackets). The tennis problem is to find 'the racket' that works best for a player.

Golf is dealing with up to 1' difference in length and a 2-3x difference in density (various shaft types). The golf problem is to identify a range of clubs that are the best for a player where the biggest issue is to make them swing the same or, if they don't swing then same, make themm do it in some optimal manner. It is a different problem for tennis than golf (although related).

dave

[Howard_Jones]

@ - DaveLeeNC

Maybe i'm stupid, but i don't get your point.

If i want one of my woods to perform with the same SW, as my other woods, i have to find what SW i'm about to go to.
I'v run into this SW problems cause iv got different grips on my last order. They was all order as GPNDMC in midizse, but a few was std. size. (13 grams difference)

I added tape to gain diameter on the std, and put the complete club on the scale. WOW, SW readings said it was "all over the place", so what do i do ?

The Tennis world is not as Black/White as you express it. I'v been playing Tennis for years before i started with Golf, and the purpose with SW is the same.
Even if a Tennis player dont change his "clubs" during play as we do, he wants his gear to "feel" the same.

You are saying that you put you clubs on the scale without the grip ?.
Is your target SW - E2, the reading of your scale without grips, or is it your target SW for the complete club?

I'm not saying you are doing it wrong, only that i go another way, and i'm far for secure that my way is right either, but i seems to work.

[DaveLeeNC]

Howard, I also played tennis for many years. My goal was always to 'find the right racket' and I usually carried 2 or (occasionally) 3 of them. They were identical. Golf presents me with an equipment problem (making significantly different equipment 'work the same') that I didn't face in tennis (other than every couple of years when I might tinker with a new racket selection).

My SW target is E2 with no grip. The SW with grip is interesting, but unimportant to me.

dave

[acquadiice]

not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!

[petter7]

[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268666751' post='2316936']
not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!
[/quote]

[attachment=558271:Picture 1.jpg]

[acquadiice]

[quote name='petter7' date='15 March 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1268666935' post='2316945']
[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268666751' post='2316936']
not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!
[/quote]

[attachment=558271:Picture 1.jpg]
[/quote]

thanks, this is very helpful!!

so i guess they will play around a more normal d2-3 SW?

so now the question becomes, if i cut from the butt or if i cut from the tip...

i believe if i cut from the tip it will make it stiffer?

[petter7]

[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1268667287' post='2316962']
[quote name='petter7' date='15 March 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1268666935' post='2316945']
[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268666751' post='2316936']
not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!
[/quote]

[attachment=558271:Picture 1.jpg]
[/quote]

thanks, this is very helpful!!

so i guess they will play around a more normal d2-3 SW?

so now the question becomes, if i cut from the butt or if i cut from the tip...

i believe if i cut from the tip it will make it stiffer?
[/quote]

Cut from the butt end to alter length.

[acquadiice]

wow, i was just reading this and now im more confused than ever...

<li>Taper tip shafts should [b][color="#ff0000"]never[/color][/b] be tip trimmed because they are designed to discrete lengths. butt trim taper tip shafts to finished length Tip trim according to head type (refer to the appropriate chart below).
now after reading this and knowing that people do tip trim their taper shafts... what does this mean?

btw - this is from the TT website on trimming instructions...

someone please shed some light !!

[Howard_Jones]

[b]acquadiice[/b]

You should cut from the but end. Cutting the tip, will make the shaft play stiffer, and that's not what you want?
Golfworks has some info with photos:http://www.golfworks.com/ (look for : Experts on how to's: in the right side of the page)

But DON'T pay attention to the chart above in grip matters. You can read from the scale that the SW changes, but it don't like i tried to explain in my post!
Its all an error due to the way the SW scale is made. If the grip is lighter than 50 gram, the club itself becomes lighter no matter what the SW scale tells, and if you put on a grip with weight over 50 grams, the clubs gains gross weight, but the SW scale will tell you it has become lighter, so the scale cant handle different weights on grips with correct readings.


@DaveLeeNC- Tanks for reply. Now i understand what you are doing, and i guess the end of our story is the same. We got the "feeling" we are looking for, but different ways.

[acquadiice]

[quote name='Howard Jones' date='15 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1268669039' post='2317038']
[b]acquadiice[/b]

You should cut from the but end. Cutting the tip, will make the shaft play stiffer, and that's not what you want?
Golfworks has some info with photos:http://www.golfworks.com/ (look for : Experts on how to's: in the right side of the page)

But DON'T pay attention to the chart above in grip matters. You can read from the scale that the SW changes, but it don't like i tried to explain in my post!
Its all an error due to the way the SW scale is made. If the grip is lighter than 50 gram, the club itself becomes lighter no matter what the SW scale tells, and if you put on a grip with weight over 50 grams, the clubs gains gross weight, but the SW scale will tell you it has become lighter, so the scale cant handle different weights on grips with correct readings.


@DaveLeeNC- Tanks for reply. Now i understand what you are doing, and i guess the end of our story is the same. We got the "feeling" we are looking for, but different ways.
[/quote]

how much stiffer? i already play a set of x100s

mine are +.25" from mizuno so they are at a 38" 5i

i wanted to get them cut .5" and was considering -.25" from the tip and -.25" from the butt.

what things should i consider before doing this?

[Howard_Jones]

[b] [url="../../user/98821-acquadiice/"]acquadiice[/url][/b]

We ARE hi-jacking this tread, so il be short. Your shafts will not change in CPM by tip trim them, so just forget about it, and cut it all from the but end. You can hard step them as an option, but then you need an extra shaft (the PW shaft) . Its the only option i know with taper tips. (put the PW shaft in the 9, the 9 shaft in the 8 and so on) but if you want to know more, we should go to another tread. Do a Search for hard stepping and you will find your answers if you want them stiffer.
I

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='Howard Jones' date='15 March 2010 - 03:37 AM' timestamp='1268642263' post='2316607']

What grips you are putting on afterwords does not influence the SW feeling,
[/quote]

I have to completely disagree with this statement based on my own experience when I regripped my clubs. I was using Winn DSI V17 midsize grips, which weighin at 52 grams according to Winn. I switched to the Lamkin 3gen midsize grips, which according to Lamkin, weigh in at 67 grams. After switching to the much heavier grips, I noticed a substantial loss of swingweight. I could not feel where the head was, and although the overall weight increased by 15 grams, they actually felt much lighter than they did with the lighter grips. Anyone can argue or disagree with me all day, but that will not change what I felt after the re-grip. From my experience, your statement is absolutely false.

[HackerD]

[quote name='dokex' date='13 March 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1268532567' post='2314263']
The weight of the grip is INCONSEQUENTIAL when it comes to the final s.w. Because the grip is on the inside of the scale's fulcrum, it will NOT affect the feel of the headweight, which is what SW is all about. In fact, the proper way to assess the final SW is to put the club UNGRIPPED on the SW scale, and record the result. Next, subtract 10 points from the reading. For example, if the ungripped reading is E2, then the proper reading when gripped is D2. After this, you can install a grip of any weight and not alter the headweight feel, or swingweight.
[/quote]
+1. Many people don't understand this.
Original definition of swingweight required a standard weight grip because any effect on the measurement caused by the weight of the grip was not meaningful.

[Howard_Jones]

[color=#1C2837]
[b][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/68580-bigred90gt/"]bigred90gt[/url][/b]


Im sorry to tell, but your experience is only a "placedo" effect.

Its impossible to change the feeling of head weight by adding/removing weight who is "in your hands". No matter how many times you say it, it wont become true.

2 of my friends are playing the same irons as i, the Callaway X-Tour. We also play the same specs on lenght and lie.
If i put on a Golfpride new decade midsize grip, the SW scale says that iv lost SW. To make them the same SW on the scale, i would have to add weight to the club head. (1,5 SW points). Do you really think this 2 identical irons, now with the same SW, but different gross weight will feel and perform the same ? . Forget it.
The clubs dont have the same SW anymore, even if the scale said it does.

Thats just how it is, and its nothing personal between me and you, its the law of physics, so argue with that, not with me.

I just spend my hole weekend trobbleshoting this matter with a lots of different tasks, and it all came out the same. Weight change on the "real fulcrum" (the middle og your hands)
only change the gross weight, not the Swingweight./feeling of head weight.
[/color]

[acquadiice]

[quote name='Howard Jones' date='15 March 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1268672269' post='2317156']
[b] acquadiice[/b]

We ARE hi-jacking this tread, so il be short. Your shafts will not change in CPM by tip trim them, so just forget about it, and cut it all from the but end. You can hard step them as an option, but then you need an extra shaft (the PW shaft) . Its the only option i know with taper tips. (put the PW shaft in the 9, the 9 shaft in the 8 and so on) but if you want to know more, we should go to another tread. Do a Search for hard stepping and you will find your answers if you want them stiffer.
I
[/quote]

so tip trim and butt trim will make the shaft play exactly the same?

i dont want them to play stiffer, i just want to shorten them by .5" and trying to see what options I have and what the outcome would be!

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268666751' post='2316936']
not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!
[/quote]

A half inch down will reduce the SW by around 3 points (all other things being equal). If you want everything (including flex) to be the same you'll need to add around 7 grams to the head weight and do most (or all) of the tipping from the tip end of the shaft (but it depends on the shaft).

dave

[acquadiice]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='15 March 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1268682690' post='2317560']
[quote name='acquadiice' date='15 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268666751' post='2316936']
not to thread jack or anything like that, i currently play my irons at a d5 swingweight with x100s and + .25" length

if i cut them down .5", how much would this change the swing weight?

thanks in advance!!
[/quote]

A half inch down will reduce the SW by around 3 points (all other things being equal). If you want everything (including flex) to be the same you'll need to add around 7 grams to the head weight and do most (or all) of the tipping from the tip end of the shaft (but it depends on the shaft).

dave
[/quote]

i have DG x100 - sw is at d5

[emo]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='15 March 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1268675971' post='2317314']
[quote name='Howard Jones' date='15 March 2010 - 03:37 AM' timestamp='1268642263' post='2316607']
What grips you are putting on afterwords does not influence the SW feeling,
[/quote]

I have to completely disagree with this statement based on my own experience when I regripped my clubs. I was using Winn DSI V17 midsize grips, which weighin at 52 grams according to Winn. I switched to the Lamkin 3gen midsize grips, which according to Lamkin, weigh in at 67 grams. After switching to the much heavier grips, I noticed a substantial loss of swingweight. I could not feel where the head was, and although the overall weight increased by 15 grams, they actually felt much lighter than they did with the lighter grips. Anyone can argue or disagree with me all day, but that will not change what I felt after the re-grip. From my experience, your statement is absolutely false.
[/quote]


+1 also made a grip change unaware that i was increasing my sw by 2 points making them feel heavy after 18 holes of play. Checking my sw revealed that even thow my total weight had decreased making my clubs lighter , my sw increased.

[acquadiice]

of course the grip weight is important people!!

why do you think winn lite grips are being marketed the way they are!!